From:             "Willem-Jan Markerink" 
To:               dtlc@helios.net
Date sent:        Thu, 3 Dec 1998 20:39:33 +0000
Subject:          Re: [DTLC] Engine/Oil/Fuel Heaters
Send reply to:    dtlc@helios.net

On  3 Dec 98 at 18:33, Rost Poleshko wrote:
 
> Willem-Jan Markerink wrote:
> 
> > 2) electric coolant heate+circulator/pump, heats coolant -> heats block -> could
> > heats interior if fan switched on.
> 
> This ones are interesting for me. Did You tell me manufacturers of this
> type of devices?

Either Webasto or Eberspcher, both German manufacturers.
Both our HJ-60 and HDJ-80 have a Webasto Thermo-Top-T, the largest of 
the compact units (you can get even larger units, but those 
can probably only be fitted in large trucks or buses).
Size is a nice squarish 10x20x30cm or so (can be mounted in any 
orientation), fits easily in a Cruiser engine bay (could get tricky with 
small vehicles and cramped engine bays though).

> Commonly for Russia, cold oil viscosity is not a main problem (I am
> using 0W-30 fully
> synthetic oil graded for -35C and this is a common practice). The first
> one is - too
> much water and parafine fractions in the fuel. As a result - ice and
> parafine
> crystals in the fuel filters, injection pumps, inlets, etc... The next
> problem -
> fuel lubricant additives does not working properly in an extremely cold
> conditions
> and, as a result, fuel pump is working unlubricated for about 3-5
> minutes after
> engine startup.
> 
> TLC's made for Russia is slightly different from european ones. The fuel
> pump and
> fuel filter are mounted on the engine body with good thermal contact to
> the hot
> elements of engine head. Also pre-heating of the coolant fluid solved
> all this
> problems.

Btw, I have been told that this GIS-specification (also known as 
'cold package') indeed involves more stuff than our European trim 
(part of European trim is 24V starting and full-time 4wd)....but I 
also believe your cold package is restricted to HZJ-80's and 
HZJ-73/75, for turbo HDJ-80's this package was not listed. Is that 
correct?

> As I am understand, coolant heaters are started in 5-10 minutes before
> the main engine startup. 

Mmm....no, that would be too way too short....even at 0C I run it for 
half an hour minimum....took some notes recently of time (seconds)
vs temperature (degrees Celsius), on our HJ-60:

00  1.5 Celsius
05  11.5
10  26
20  46
25  48
30  50
45  60

Note that the temperature is *coolant* temperature, not engine....but 
the effect on starting is significant....it purrs immediately like 
on a hot summer day!
Still not sure whether my thermostat is okay....I thought it was 
broken, and opened up earlier than 80C or so, but after some analysis 
this might be simple convection, as the radiator itself stays cold.
On our HDJ-80, the temperature needle on the dasboard is at normal 
operating temperature if I let it run for an hour....:-))

> What capacity of accumulator battery is enough for 10 minutes of
> running heater, coolant pump and interior heater fan? Is it
> possible to using main accumulators (In my truck are two
> accumulators of 100A/h) or I'll think, how to install the third one
> and connect it to the charging circuit? Regards, Rost Poleshko

These things don't draw very much electric power....I once measured 
total current, including coolant pump and interior fan (I simply 
attached two wires to a dummy fuse, and plugged a amp-meter into it):

HJ-60 vs HDJ-80 (24V vs 12V, and HDJ has a later model Webasto):

pre-glow/ignition 15A vs 15A (5 minutes max)
coolant pump 3.5A vs 5A
interior fan 2-5A[*] vs 3.5A

This means that after starting the heater (and preglow/ignition), 
the electric consumption is only about 5A at 24V, and 10A at 12V, or 
120W, so with a 2x 100Ah (=1200Wh) batteries, you can 
run the heater for a loooong time (yes, I know, at -40C you will not 
even have 600Wh left, perhaps only 300Wh, so a 3rd battery might 
still make sense!)
Fuel consumption is 0.5L pro hour, also peanuts.

[*] 2A at lowest setting, 5A at highest....but for heating the interior
you want definately the lowest setting, otherwise the heat(ed air) will 
flow out at the back (not if you put the vent system on recirculation of
course, but in that case the heat won't reach the rear windows 
either, nor get the moisture out).



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From:             "Marc LaCounte" 
To:               
Subject:          Webasto
Date sent:        Fri, 4 Sep 1998 20:09:15 -0400

Hello:

My name is Marc LaCounte, I am the Specialty Markets Business Unit =
Manager for Webasto Thermosystems, North America.  I found your =
editorial to be interesting and was following up to confirm you have all =
available contacts for Webasto NA.  I would be happy to send any =
information your way or provide a dealer list for both Canada and the =
U.S.

If interested:

Marc LaCounte
Webasto Thermosystems
3333 John Conley Drive
Lapeer, MI 48446

(800) 432-8371 (ext. 432)

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Marc LaCounte













FROM: "GREG" 
SUBJECT: Re: Diesels and cold weather starting
DATE: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:40:41 -0600
NEWSGROUPS: rec.autos.4x4,alt.autos.dodge.trucks

Gary - KJ6Q wrote in message ...
>Vic Adomaitis wrote in message ...
>>Hi All,
>>
>>I'm contemplating the purchase of a dodge ram 3/4 ton 4x4 (either new
>or
>>used) for use with a camper, and I've been thinking about a diesel (for
>>both engine life and fuel economy reasons). I've heard some bad stories
>>about diesel starting at cold temperatures (ie -40 or colder). I know
>I'll
>>end up in the middle of nowhere in the dead of winter, so leaving it
>idling
>>continuously or plugging it in are not options. Does anyone have any
>real
>>world experience in this area?
>>
>>Thanks in advance for any assistance.
>>
>>Vic
>

>The Cummins in the Dodge comes standard with an engine block heater -
>aids starting in extremely cold temps, and provides much faster cab heat
>for the driver as well - but if you're not close to 110 vac, that won't
>do you much good.
>
>--
>Gary - KJ6Q
>====================
>The fable,"The grasshopper & the ant", reveals the
>existance of socialist attitudes - even in Greek times...
>"Play today - live off your neighbor tomorrow..."
>

On Shadetree Mechanic, on TNN, they just aired a program showing a diesel
fuel powered block heater. It was plumbed into the truck fuel tank, had a
optional remote control. Looked pretty slick for you diesel drinkers out
there, no extention cords. If I remember right, it would warm up the engine
and heater core much warmer than a block heater would, immediate heat in the
cab! Sorry I do not remember the manufacturer.
Greg












FROM: Roger Brown 
SUBJECT: Re: Diesels and cold weather starting
DATE: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 16:43:50 -0800
ORGANIZATION: SGI
NEWSGROUPS: rec.autos.4x4,alt.autos.dodge.trucks

Barry Lee wrote:
> 
> On shade tree mechanic (TNN) last week they did an install of a engine/cab pre
> heater that uses diesel in a little furnace like device that heats up the water
> turns on the fan and I believe pre heats the block. I live in Ontario Canada
> and no one seems to have much trouble starting the rams I've seen dads start up
> after sitting a couple of days in some pretty cold weather.

You can find out all about that product on this web page:

	http://www.shadetreemechanic.com/previouseps/st8_24.shtml

The unit in question was:
	DILC, Hydronic, D4, D5 RamKit, SuperDuty Kit (fuel fired heater) from Espar
	Heater Systems - Romulus, MI & Mississauga, Ontario Canada In the US call
	800-837-3900 & in Canada call 800-668-5676












FROM: "Thomas Kammerer" 
SUBJECT: Re: Webasto einbauanleitung
DATE: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 21:33:03 +0200
ORGANIZATION: T-Online
NEWSGROUPS: de.etc.fahrzeug.auto

"Henning Keseler"  schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3cc83772$0$58750$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk...

>Hej - I once had a link, but i have lost it, to www.webasto.de/??/?? where
>you could find einbauanleitungs in pdf format for various cars. I found the
>link in a German Auto-forum, but can´t find it again.
>I think it was meant to be only for their dealers, and you may take a look
>ot every pdf.file to find the right one.
>I found one for my Astra, its called 64994F.pdf

Hallo Henning,

http://www.viermalvier.com/technik/

http://www.google.de/search?q=cache:yBNZtMKi3ooC:www.hoehl-druck.de/dl/webasto.pdf+Webasto+Einbauanleitung&hl=de


Gruß
  Thomas






FROM: "Ingo Cordes" 
SUBJECT: Re: Webasto einbauanleitung
DATE: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 07:33:17 GMT
NEWSGROUPS: de.etc.fahrzeug.auto

http://www.webasto.de/cgi-bin/webgla/tp_wahl1.pl?d,631WMPR]Webasto%20im%20Ford[/url






FROM: "Henning Keseler" 
SUBJECT: Re: Webasto einbauanleitung
DATE: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 16:04:38 +0200
ORGANIZATION: TDC Internet
NEWSGROUPS: de.etc.fahrzeug.auto


"Ingo Cordes"  skrev i en meddelelse news:1p7y8.24$wc7.809@paloalto-snr2.gtei.net...
> http://www.webasto.de/cgi-bin/webgla/tp_wahl1.pl?d,631WMPR]Webasto%20im%20Ford[/url
> 

Yeah, this is exactly the site i was looking for.

Thank you very much.

MfG  Henning








Note WJ, Dutch URL's:


Eberspächer/Eberspaecher: 

http://www.eberca.nl


Webasto:

http://www.webasto.nl











From: "BILL DAVENPORT" 
To: 
Subject: webasto heaters can i use a 24 volt on a12 volt system
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:18:54 -0500

Dear sir:

      I would like to know if i can change a24 volt heater to a 12 volt system 
or use it some how on a 12 volt system.
                                  Thanks Cincerly
                                             Bill







From: Willem-Jan Markerink 
To: "BILL DAVENPORT" 
Subject: Re: webasto heaters can i use a 24 volt on a12 volt system
Reply-to: w.j.markerink@a1.nl

On 23 Feb 2005 at 12:18, BILL DAVENPORT wrote:

> Dear sir:
> 
> 
>       I would like to know if i can change a24 volt heater to a 12
>       volt system or use it some how on a 12 volt system.
> 
>                                    Thanks Cincerly
>                                    Bill

Hi Bill,

The smaller/car models are only available in 12v, so no 24v 
components available to convert the heater itself....but you can of 
course use a 24v->12v converter, either a cheap model with 50% 
effiency (and large cool-ribs, about 10x5x20cm), or a more expensive 
model with 85-95% effiency....just be sure to get at least a 20A 
converter, since the start-up/ignition/glow phase drains quite some 
current.

We have such an el-cheapo in our 24v diesel Land Cruiser, the more 
efficient models weren't available back then, but I would strongly 
consider it, if you plan to use it in severe cold or for extensive 
periods of time.
(I once did some testing on both our 12v application (later Cruiser) 
and 24v; with interior-fan included the average energy consumption is 
about 100W, or 24v/5A & 12v/10A)
In severe cold & remote area's you could also put the heater on a 
separate/auxiliary 12v battery, that way you have both the starter 
battery protected, and don't need a converter....:))

If you have any question, remark, comment, want to share some philosophy or just want to express your opinion about these pages, feel free to send email to: w.j.markerink @ a1.nl