http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/volvo_turning-radius_vs_steering-angle.txt http://makeashorterlink.com/?H2B6236CC To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 04:02:17 +0200 Subject: [Volvo303] Turning radius & different CV-joints (& intra-axle drive-shaft wear on 6x6) Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com Many moons ago someone mentioned a better turning radius by changing the steering knuckles from the factory CV-joints to something else, probably a joint sourced from an US-vehicle or US-axle.... Any update or research on that subject? Also: Any more data on the intra-axle rear-most drive-shaft on a 6x6, claimed to wear out quite fast, or at least much faster than the other two drive-shafts? -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: Teppo Rapo Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:03:38 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Turning radius & different CV-joints (& intra-axle drive-shaft wear on 6x6) Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com > Also: > Any more data on the intra-axle rear-most drive-shaft on a 6x6, > claimed to wear out quite fast, or at least much faster than the > other two drive-shafts? > > -- > Bye, Do you mean the rear-most propeller shaft? This one? http://www.scout.1g.fi/propeller.JPG I was just curious if you mean just wear of the joints or?? Those joint are available in any spare part selling store with less than 10 euro (7-8 euro with some discount) so I would not be too worried about it. Is there something else to worry about?? -teppo To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: jb Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:04:17 -0700 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Turning radius & different CV-joints (& intra-axle drive-shaft wear on 6x6) Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com Longfield in the US makes a chryo-treated CV joint that is much stronger than stock and will allow more angle. Also, there is a member of POR (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forums/) that is working on a replacement chromoly axle set to use standard 760x-size ujoints rather than the CVs, the whole set (axles/joints) is offered at $850 US, IIRC. -jb To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:37:46 +0200 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Turning radius & different CV-joints (& intra-axle drive-shaft wear on 6x6) Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 10 Aug 2005 at 10:04, jb wrote: > Longfield in the US makes a chryo-treated CV joint that is much > stronger than stock and will allow more angle. I assume non-Volvo specific, because the Volvo-joint was already identical to some US-model, correct? Any idea how much better the angle would become? (for full understanding/interpretation, this would require someone also knowing the stock angle....and/or the math involved to calculate turning radius from steering angle + wheelbase, a long-time nagging pet-peeve of mine....:)) (because 'max-angle' will be given for the *inside* wheel, while the turning radius is determined by the *outside* wheel....hence trackwidth is also relevant, with the Ackermann-angle coming into play too....nasty stuff all that together....:)) (in a second-hand bookshop, I once stumbled over some automotive engineering handbooks that came close to this, but the set wasn't complete sadly....;(( Hmm....waitaminute....were those Longfields (and other more ductile steel joints) not limited to vehicles with locking hubs? Because the ductility made them indeed more strong, but also much faster wearing? They were definitely not suited for fulltime 4wd vehicles....only question left is whether 'idle' rotating is okay (unlike continuously powered joints on a fulltime rig, and unlike sitting motionless on a locking hub). PS: or is the larger angle only obtained by the fact that it is stronger? And not by design? (like the difference between Toyota Land Cruiser joints and Toyota light truck/Hilux drive shaft joints....24 vs 34 degree or something) > Also, there is a member of POR (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forums/) that > is working on a replacement chromoly axle set to use standard > 760x-size ujoints rather than the CVs, the whole set (axles/joints) is > offered at $850 US, IIRC. Hmm....but 'standard' joints would not improve steering angle, would it? I also assume the axle-improvement involves both front and rear half shafts? (they are different in length, not?) Or perhaps even drive shafts as well? (hmm....typical application would probably be Volvo portals under a different vehicle, so no need for stock-size Volvo drive-shafts I guess) And that price is for a complete front axle? PS: last but not least: How much larger can the steering angle become on a Volvo, before the tire starts to rub? (again, only inside wheel is relevant, outside wheel has smaller steering angle) (I could even live with some limitations for the largest size of tires....the scenario for which I want a signficantly better turning radius, alpine hairpin roads, is also where I might want smaller tires) Thanx, interesting stuff, sorry for the many counter-questions & academic ponderings....;)) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 04:01:08 +0200 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Turning radius & different CV-joints (& intra-axle drive-shaft wear on 6x6) Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 10 Aug 2005 at 20:37, Willem-Jan Markerink wrote: > > Longfield in the US makes a chryo-treated CV joint that is much > > stronger than stock and will allow more angle. > > I assume non-Volvo specific, because the Volvo-joint was already > identical to some US-model, correct? > > Any idea how much better the angle would become? > (for full understanding/interpretation, this would require someone > also knowing the stock angle....and/or the math involved to calculate > turning radius from steering angle + wheelbase, a long-time nagging > pet-peeve of mine....:)) > (because 'max-angle' will be given for the *inside* wheel, while the > turning radius is determined by the *outside* wheel....hence > trackwidth is also relevant, with the Ackermann-angle coming into > play too....nasty stuff all that together....:)) > (in a second-hand bookshop, I once stumbled over some automotive > engineering handbooks that came close to this, but the set wasn't > complete sadly....;(( Darn, the goniometric is not even that hard, I think....after some drawings I calculated 24 degree for the outside wheel, 30 degree for the inside wheel. Only hesitation is that I don't get the exact same values for each of the 3 wheelbases (the above is for the 8m radius (wheel, not body) of the TGB20, with 3.245m wheelbase (and 1.54m trackwidth), but these other two are only off by less than 1 degree....and I also wasn't sure whether the width of the tires themselves should be included somewhere. Also, based on the longest wheelbase (TGB20/C306), I did a 'improvement' calculation on the turning radius, *if* the steering angle could improve by 25% (or 6 degree on the outside wheel)....turning radius would then improve from 8m to 6.49m, quite significantly (TGB13 is 14.4m, TGB11 is 11.6m). However, the *inside* wheel would then have to turn 41 degrees....probably a bit optimistic, tire/rubbing-wise. (but with smaller tires, who knows....if even 11.00x16 doesn't seem to rub with default steering angles (and stock wheels have margin for chains), then there is at least *some* margin) Now we only have to know the angle-improvement with the aftermarket CV-joint solutions....:)) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:01:00 +0200 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Turning radius & different CV-joints (& intra-axle drive-shaft wear on 6x6) Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 15 Aug 2005 at 4:01, Willem-Jan Markerink wrote: > On 10 Aug 2005 at 20:37, Willem-Jan Markerink wrote: > > > > Longfield in the US makes a chryo-treated CV joint that is much > > > stronger than stock and will allow more angle. > > > > I assume non-Volvo specific, because the Volvo-joint was already > > identical to some US-model, correct? > > > > Any idea how much better the angle would become? > > (for full understanding/interpretation, this would require someone > > also knowing the stock angle....and/or the math involved to calculate > > turning radius from steering angle + wheelbase, a long-time nagging > > pet-peeve of mine....:)) > > (because 'max-angle' will be given for the *inside* wheel, while the > > turning radius is determined by the *outside* wheel....hence > > trackwidth is also relevant, with the Ackermann-angle coming into > > play too....nasty stuff all that together....:)) > > (in a second-hand bookshop, I once stumbled over some automotive > > engineering handbooks that came close to this, but the set wasn't > > complete sadly....;(( > > > > Darn, the goniometric is not even that hard, I think....after some > drawings I calculated 24 degree for the outside wheel, 30 degree for > the inside wheel. > Only hesitation is that I don't get the exact same values for each of > the 3 wheelbases (the above is for the 8m radius (wheel, not body) of > the TGB20, with 3.245m wheelbase (and 1.54m trackwidth), but these > other two are only off by less than 1 degree....and I also wasn't > sure whether the width of the tires themselves should be included > somewhere. > Also, based on the longest wheelbase (TGB20/C306), I did a > 'improvement' calculation on the turning radius, *if* the steering > angle could improve by 25% (or 6 degree on the outside > wheel)....turning radius would then improve from 8m to 6.49m, quite > significantly (TGB13 is 14.4m, TGB11 is 11.6m). Oops, mixed radius with diameter there, the latter two should have been radius too, 7.2m and 5.8m. Btw, for the those wondering, above 3.245m wheelbase is based on 2.72 + 1/2 x 1.05m, since the rear 'pivot' is between 2nd and 3rd axle. > However, the *inside* wheel would then have to turn 41 > degrees....probably a bit optimistic, tire/rubbing-wise. > (but with smaller tires, who knows....if even 11.00x16 doesn't seem > to rub with default steering angles (and stock wheels have margin for > chains), then there is at least *some* margin) > > Now we only have to know the angle-improvement with the aftermarket > CV-joint solutions....:)) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "G.R.Baker" Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 02:57:58 -0000 Subject: [Volvo303] Re: CV-joint replacements & upgrades? Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com --- In Volvo303@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" wrote: http://www.cvunlimited.com/NEWFIELD/volvo.htm To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 18:10:15 +0100 Subject: [Volvo303] CV-joint replacements & upgrades? Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com Dear Group, In the past, some have mentioned replacements for the CV-joints in the front axle (steering knuckle), and even a possible upgrade made by Longfield (better steering angle and probably stronger, but not necessarily better wearing)....any news on this front? (other than a complete/expensive replacement kit of both (stub)axles and joints?) (today I learned that the Volvo CV-joints are also a military-blocked stock-item) (don't need one myself, but the scary thing is that some people might start cannibalizing good/complete portals for this purpose....;(( Here some older messages related to this topic (but not the oldest/first list-mails that mentioned Longfield): http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/volvo_turning-radius_vs_steering- angle.txt http://makeashorterlink.com/?H2B6236CC Any efficient alternatives/replacement/upgrades on the market today? Willem (wouldn't mind a smaller turning circle than the current 17m either....:)) Jan -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 04:41:53 +0100 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Re: CV-joint replacements & upgrades? Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 12 Mar 2006 at 2:57, G.R.Baker wrote: > --- In Volvo303@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" > wrote: > > > http://www.cvunlimited.com/NEWFIELD/volvo.htm Thank you Sir, mighty interesting....:)) Any idea whether it could also improve steering-angle?....;)) (tried some reverse-Googling on that URL and 'volvo+newfield', but this seems to be very fresh news, no discussion about it anywhere else) Anyone in close contact with these guys? Willem (thinking that a smaller turning circle might lower the strength-demand for the CV-joint, for not having to pull out of the ditch, for having 'missed' yet one more corner....;)) Jan -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "G.R.Baker" Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 02:08:02 -0000 Subject: [Volvo303] Re: CV-joint replacements & upgrades? Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com --- In Volvo303@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" wrote: > > On 12 Mar 2006 at 2:57, G.R.Baker wrote: > > > --- In Volvo303@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" > > wrote: > > > > > http://www.cvunlimited.com/NEWFIELD/volvo.htm > > Thank you Sir, mighty interesting....:)) > Any idea whether it could also improve steering-angle?....;)) > > (tried some reverse-Googling on that URL and 'volvo+newfield', but > this seems to be very fresh news, no discussion about it anywhere > else) > > Anyone in close contact with these guys? > > > Willem (thinking that a smaller turning circle might lower the > strength-demand for the CV-joint, for not having to pull out of the > ditch, for having 'missed' yet one more corner....;)) Jan I don't know, I actually cut my turn radius down some with the stops. I think this will extend the life of the axle boots (along with keeping them moist with a little grease now and then). GRB To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: jb Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 11:12:44 -0800 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] CV-joint replacements & upgrades? Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 3/10/06, Willem-Jan Markerink wrote: > > Dear Group, > > In the past, some have mentioned replacements for the CV-joints in > the front axle (steering knuckle), and even a possible upgrade made > by Longfield (better steering angle and probably stronger, but not > necessarily better wearing)....any news on this front? > (other than a complete/expensive replacement kit of both (stub)axles > and joints?) > > (today I learned that the Volvo CV-joints are also a military-blocked > stock-item) > (don't need one myself, but the scary thing is that some people might > start cannibalizing good/complete portals for this purpose....;(( > > > Here some older messages related to this topic (but not the > oldest/first list-mails that mentioned Longfield): > > http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/volvo_turning-radius_vs_steering- > angle.txt > > > http://makeashorterlink.com/?H2B6236CC > > > Any efficient alternatives/replacement/upgrades on the market today? > > > Willem (wouldn't mind a smaller turning circle than the current 17m > either....:)) Jan I haven't seen anything about the ujoint replacement axle kit in awhile, I think it went the way of the dodo. I've read that the Volvo CV has exactly the same internals as a Toyota or Rover CV? I posted a few weeks back that you could girdle the Volvo CV bell which will add strength. They call this "Smurfing" on the PBB. I may look into this for mine. Interestingly enough, the "new" hi-tech way to beef up your front Dana 60? Add CVs..... -jb [note WJ / 2009/09/24 ] Applying the same math/geometry in the context of a TGB20 frame extension, by respectively 90, 110 and 130cm (minimal/medium/maximum crew-cab, 1+1/3/1+1+3 seats) results in a turning radius of.... 10.22 / 10.71 / 11.20m ....or a turning radius of.... 20.44 / 21.42 / 22.40m (vs 8m & 16m of a stock TGB20)