To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: Teppo Rapo Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:05:02 +0300 Subject: [Volvo303] Gearbox - lower gearing c303 Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com Hello! Again I'm in lowering the gearing of Volvo. Options so far are - 7.5 or 7.0 diff's iso 6.0 not helping enough... no no - custom made t-gearbox with ~3:1 ratio (~700=80) good option, slightly= expencive but doable. - Dana diff gearing, ratios up to 5.xx available but nobody knows for sure if they fit. Makes total gearing of axle =A812 iso 6 - gearbox, again and this sissue the one I would like to have som more information about. So, I bumbed into the link about ZF garbox for Ford Transit and possibly also from small Ford truck, They have a ZF gearbox and the type was just too familiar to my eyes. See for you self. http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/volvo/zf_523-3.jpg/full Any ideas, would it fit to Volvo? See the ratio of 1st gear... :) -teppo To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: Willem-Jan Markerink Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 01:28:44 +0200 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Gearbox - lower gearing c303 Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 16 Apr 2007 at 21:05, Teppo Rapo wrote: > Hello! > > Again I'm in lowering the gearing of Volvo. Options so far are > - 7.5 or 7.0 diff's iso 6.0 not helping enough... no no > - custom made t-gearbox with ~3:1 ratio (~700 euro) good option, slightly > expencive but doable. Has this been done before, or has a certain gear-shop given you their impression/analysis, after you showed them the original box? 700 euro sounds dirt-cheap, given all other options. (but it sounds too cheap for a completely *new* T-case, starting from scratch) (OTOH, I don't believe that the stock box allows gears this much larger, so perhaps it is only a modification of the stock box?) Please send PM with details!....;)) Interesting synergy: a 50% *overdrive*, bolting onto the PTO- port/flange, also exists, one of two rally-prototypes (and, demand allowing, any other milder gear ratio is possible too, but never cheap, 2500-4000 euro). So in combination with a 3:1 T-case, this would return low gear exactly back to stock, yet still gain an extreme overdrive (yet perfect for a diesel). > - Dana diff gearing, ratios up to 5.xx available but nobody knows for > sure if they fit. Makes total gearing of axle =A812 iso 6 > - gearbox, again and this sissue the one I would like to have som more > information about. > > > So, I bumbed into the link about ZF garbox for Ford Transit and possibly > also from small Ford truck, They have a ZF gearbox and the type was just > too familiar to my eyes. See for you self. > > http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/volvo/zf_523-3.jpg/full > > Any ideas, would it fit to Volvo? See the ratio of 1st gear... :) > -teppo Not sure if the ZF-gearbox in the latest Land Rover Defender incarnation (also with Ford Transit diesel) is the same or similar/compatible, but reports in German magazines claim a 1/3 lower 1st gear, and a 1/3 higher 6th gear....quite impressive, unless of the course previous generation gearbox was lousy as hell....;)) (current 1st/low ratio: 63:1....that's Volvo territory!) (so before, it should have been something like 45:1) However, given the complication of re-creating the rod-linkage for operating a manual box, even I, as a strong opposer of slushboxes, would reconsider whether such an auto-tranny might not be the more smart solution.... -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand=20 is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] Message-ID: <1176781738799.teppo.rapo.972.z_8A8G0ajEp6t5OFQYP8AQ@luukku.com> To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: Teppo Rapo Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 06:48:58 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Gearbox - lower gearing c303 Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com > Has this been done before, or has a certain gear-shop given you their > impression/analysis, after you showed them the original box? > 700 euro sounds dirt-cheap, given all other options. > (but it sounds too cheap for a completely *new* T-case, starting from > scratch) > (OTOH, I don't believe that the stock box allows gears this much > larger, so perhaps it is only a modification of the stock box?) > Please send PM with details!....;)) This been done before, several time in fact. You need to have stock gearbox to start with. I tosh you a mail. -teppo Teppo Rapo +358 40 5508394 Riimusauvantie 9 FIN-00740 Helsinki Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 06:46:27 +0300 (EEST) From: Teppo Rapo To: w.j.markerink@a1.nl Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Gearbox - lower gearing c303 After all I choose t omail you private. > Has this been done before, or has a certain gear-shop given you their > impression/analysis, after you showed them the original box? > 700 euro sounds dirt-cheap, given all other options. > (but it sounds too cheap for a completely *new* T-case, starting from > scratch) > (OTOH, I don't believe that the stock box allows gears this much > larger, so perhaps it is only a modification of the stock box?) > Please send PM with details!....;)) This has been done several times, I find it a bit expencive as for that price I can get stock t-gearbox or two and with this I get only gears. Price is questimate as well as gear ratio but give or take 10% for both. One Volvo fellow asked the price once in the past. I have not been in contact to shop/fellow that does these, have his phone number thoug. I know cars that has this installed. Same shop does gears to other t-cases as well, eg. Toyota BJ/HJ etc. etc. For Toyota there's been few ways to do it, eighter send the complite box to shop and get geared as a return or send partially disassembled box and get it back with new gears installed and you need to put it together your self. So, You do need stock trasfer gearbox to start with. Those are inexpensive compared the price that you need to pay just for a new gearing. -teppo > Interesting synergy: a 50% *overdrive*, bolting onto the PTO- > port/flange, also exists, one of two rally-prototypes (and, demand > allowing, any other milder gear ratio is possible too, but never > cheap, 2500-4000 euro). > So in combination with a 3:1 T-case, this would return low gear > exactly back to stock, yet still gain an extreme overdrive (yet > perfect for a diesel). > > > - Dana diff gearing, ratios up to 5.xx available but nobody knows for > > sure if they fit. Makes total gearing of axle a12 iso 6 > > - gearbox, again and this sissue the one I would like to have som more > > information about. > > > > > > So, I bumbed into the link about ZF garbox for Ford Transit and possibly > > also from small Ford truck, They have a ZF gearbox and the type was just > > too familiar to my eyes. See for you self. > > http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/volvo/zf_523-3.jpg/full > > > > Any ideas, would it fit to Volvo? See the ratio of 1st gear... :) > > -teppo > > Not sure if the ZF-gearbox in the latest Land Rover Defender > incarnation (also with Ford Transit diesel) is the same or > similar/compatible, but reports in German magazines claim a 1/3 lower > 1st gear, and a 1/3 higher 6th gear....quite impressive, unless of > the course previous generation gearbox was lousy as hell....;)) > (current 1st/low ratio: 63:1....that's Volvo territory!) > (so before, it should have been something like 45:1) > > However, given the complication of re-creating the rod-linkage for > operating a manual box, even I, as a strong opposer of slushboxes, > would reconsider whether such an auto-tranny might not be the more > smart solution.... From: Willem-Jan Markerink To: Teppo Rapo Subject: Re: Gearbox - lower gearing c303 Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 16:47:47 +0200 On 17 Apr 2007 at 6:46, Teppo Rapo wrote: > After all I choose t omail you private. > > > Has this been done before, or has a certain gear-shop given you > > their impression/analysis, after you showed them the original box? > > 700 euro sounds dirt-cheap, given all other options. (but it sounds > > too cheap for a completely *new* T-case, starting from scratch) > > (OTOH, I don't believe that the stock box allows gears this much > > larger, so perhaps it is only a modification of the stock box?) > > Please send PM with details!....;)) > > This has been done several times, I find it a bit expencive as for > that price I can get stock t-gearbox or two and with this I get only > gears. Price is questimate as well as gear ratio but give or take 10% > for both. One Volvo fellow asked the price once in the past. But is there enough experience with this upgrade in Volvo context by now? Both in terms of noise, wear, strength and heat? (the over/underdrive solutions from Marks Adapters in Australia consist of a set of *straight*cut gears, which are more noisy than original Volvo. (for older Land Cruisers, this is not an argument, as those had straight-cut gears originally as well) > I have not been in contact to shop/fellow that does these, have his > phone number thoug. I know cars that has this installed. Same shop > does gears to other t-cases as well, eg. Toyota BJ/HJ etc. etc. Are they located in Sweden or Norway btw? (shipping complete T-cases further away doesn't sound likely, because of shipping cost) Would love to get their contact information, especially if they really have done this Volvo T-case before....nothing beats experience, especially in long-term context, with our without hard- core rally/trial abuse (and feedback). Btw, for Toyota & Co it is quite easy, Marks Adapters in Australia fabricates several re-gearing solutions, from underdrive to overdrive. (they now even offer a portal-hub solution for Nissan Patrol, soon also for Toyota! (but very expensive, 19k AU$) > For Toyota there's been few ways to do it, eighter send the complite > box to shop and get geared as a return or send partially disassembled > box and get it back with new gears installed and you need to put it > together your self. > > So, You do need stock trasfer gearbox to start with. Those are > inexpensive compared the price that you need to pay just for a new > gearing. -teppo I knew that additional/spare T-cases/gearboxes are cheap (not surprising given the scrapping of Volvo's because their portal axles are gone), so I never considered that 'logistics' a problem....:)) Also tempting to combine it with a 5-speed conversion....;)) (I am still not sure whether my longwheelbase C306 has the same vacuum-tank limit that the shortwheelbase Volvo's seem to have (but not the TGB20 apparently)). Thanx for sharing this exciting new information, looking forward to hear more details & contact info!....:)) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 19:37:21 +0300 From: Teppo Rapo User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) To: w.j.markerink@a1.nl Subject: Re: Gearbox - lower gearing c303 As you can imagine, this goes only for low gear. I can't see the wear and heat to be an object. Ok, you can use the low gear in quite hard conditions for a longer period of time as well. This fellow who does those mod's is an individual working or owning the metalworkshop, I will give him a call tomorrow and as about the mod and if he is willing/able to talk to you. Most of the older finn's does not speak or want to speak any english. His telephone number is +358400340168 ,last name is H=E4kkinen (Haekkinen) Like our old F1 driver MIka H=E4kkinen. I do not know he's first name. I also try to contact the mr "Ed" tomorrow, he has on of those boxes installed, He's Volvo project page is here: http://www.petrisimolin.com/ThePalsta/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3D29731 Just posted a qustion about his telephon number. He's good friend of my friend at work. Did not tought about straight and not-straight tooth in the tg-box.... That makes a difference of course... We'll keep in touch and see if they have anything that you would be intereseted about. You are located at Netherlands, right? Are you close to Amsterdam airport? I'm working in the aviation (Blue1) and logistical /traveling issues are bit simpler for me than they might be for some other people. :) BTW: My wife that used to work as a marketig director for comppany called Exprian Finland, she quit she's job and started to learn gardening, so we are forced to go to Neatherlands any how to se tulip farms :) -teppo From: Willem-Jan Markerink To: Teppo Rapo Subject: Re: Gearbox - lower gearing c303 Reply-to: w.j.markerink@a1.nl Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 02:00:55 +0200 On 17 Apr 2007 at 19:37, Teppo Rapo wrote: > As you can imagine, this goes only for low gear. I can't see the wear > and heat to be an object. Ok, you can use the low gear in quite hard > conditions for a longer period of time as well. This fellow who does > those mod's is an individual working or owning the metalworkshop, I will > give him a call tomorrow and as about the mod and if he is willing/able > to talk to you. Most of the older finn's does not speak or want to speak > any english. Ah yes, was afraid of that somewhat indeed.... Rather interesting they might not *want* to speak English....does this categorie still want to speak Russian, instead?....just curious....:)) > His telephone number is +358400340168 ,last name is > Häkkinen (Haekkinen) Like our old F1 driver MIka Häkkinen. I do not know > he's first name. I will wait for your instructions; if he doesn't speak any English, we might have to find another solution.... Btw language: do you speak/read any/decent Russian? > I also try to contact the mr "Ed" tomorrow, he has on of those boxes > installed, He's Volvo project page is here: > http://www.petrisimolin.com/ThePalsta/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=29731 > > Just posted a qustion about his telephon number. He's good friend of my > friend at work. Did not tought about straight and not-srtaight tooth in > the tg-box.... That makes a difference of course... We'll keep in touch > and see if they have anything that you would be intereseted about. > > You are located at Neatherlands, right? Are you close to Amsderdam > airport? I'm working in the aviation (Blue1) and logistical /traveling > issues are bit simpler for me than they might be for some other people. :) No, sadly I am on the completely opposite (east) end of Holland, 5km from the German border. Although it's actually far from sadly, much less traffic congestion here, and not too far from German highways either, for > BTW: My wife that used to work as a marketig director for comppany > called Exprian Finland, she quit she's job and started to learn > gardening, so we are forced to go to Neatherlands any how to se tulip > farms :) :)))) But can you take a T-case as hand-carry luggage?....;)) From: Willem-Jan Markerink To: Teppo Rapo Subject: Re: Gearbox - lower gearing c303 Reply-to: w.j.markerink@a1.nl Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 05:52:39 +0200 Oh btw, please also ask him whether it is possible to get a (slight) overdrive at the same time, 20-50%....that would solve the diesel- conversion problems once and for all, while the 50% underdrive would allow larger tires in both cases. (at full load, 5 ton, I wasn't actually impressed with the climbing capacity of my C306 in 1st/low, so 11.00x16 tires doesn't sound a smart thing to do, without such an underdrive) (and going downhill even a (relatively small) diesel would like to have such a slow ratio too) And having the overdrive incorporated in the T-case itself means that I won't have to sacrifice the PTO-port, which is particulary nasty on a firefighter with hydraulics. (and even on my first C306 without hydraulics, I still have the plan to convert that (bare) PTO to a PTI (power-take-in), by an hydraulic motor, powered by an engine-/belt-driven hydraulic pump) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:20:33 +0300 From: Teppo Rapo To: w.j.markerink@a1.nl Subject: Re: Gearbox - lower gearing c303 Willem-Jan Markerink kirjoitti: > Oh btw, please also ask him whether it is possible to get a (slight) > overdrive at the same time, 20-50%....that would solve the diesel- > conversion problems once and for all, while the 50% underdrive would > allow larger tires in both cases. > (at full load, 5 ton, I wasn't actually impressed with the climbing > capacity of my C306 in 1st/low, so 11.00x16 tires doesn't sound a > smart thing to do, without such an underdrive) > (and going downhill even a (relatively small) diesel would like to > have such a slow ratio too) > > And having the overdrive incorporated in the T-case itself means that > I won't have to sacrifice the PTO-port, which is particulary nasty on > a firefighter with hydraulics. > (and even on my first C306 without hydraulics, I still have the plan > to convert that (bare) PTO to a PTI (power-take-in), by an hydraulic > motor, powered by an engine-/belt-driven hydraulic pump) Hi! I called him preefly, he said that there been a lot of people asking about the boxes. Price gone up, it some where between 900- 1100. He has on extra gearbox, he will make that ready and you just send original as exchange. Or you send your GB and receive it complitelly assebled, ready to be installed. New ratio is 3,7:1 Nam! :) I will get one! :) :) There will be 2 new non-straight gears, just as originals and one axle needs to be manifactured all over again. New gears does not fit into gearbox with out some internal modification, carving some more room in there. gearbox will be just as good as original, no noise, heating or weak points. it will handle just as much power than original. He sad that overdrive might be possible but extriemly difficult and time consuming. There is some axles and bearing that needs to be remanifactured complitelly. It's going to cost lot's more that lowering the low gear. From: Willem-Jan Markerink To: Teppo Rapo Subject: Re: Gearbox - lower gearing c303 Reply-to: w.j.markerink@a1.nl Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 20:35:27 +0200 On 18 Apr 2007 at 18:20, Teppo Rapo wrote: > Hi! I called him preefly, he said that there been a lot of people asking > about the boxes. Price gone up, it some where between 900- 1100€. > He has on extra gearbox, he will make that ready and you just send > original as exchange. Or you send your GB and receive it complitelly > assebled, ready to be installed. New ratio is 3,7:1 Nam! :) I will get > one! :) :) There will be 2 new non-straight gears, just as originals and > one axle needs to be manifactured all over again. New gears does not fit > into gearbox with out some internal modification, carving some more room > in there. gearbox will be just as good as original, no noise, heating or > weak points. it will handle just as much power than original. > > He sad that overdrive might be possible but extriemly difficult and time > consuming. There is some axles and bearing that needs to be > remanifactured complitelly. It's going to cost lot's more that lowering > the low gear. Okay, we can skip that then....although the 1:1.5 PTO-overdrive is far from cheap either (2500 euro), but probably mechanically more robust (rallye-tested). Btw, is 3.7:1 currently the *only* ratio possible, or is 3.0:1 still possible too? Or even only at request, in a smaller batch? 3.7 would make more sense to me in combination with such a 1:1.5 PTO- overdrive, to also gain a bit underdrive (instead of a 3.0:1 that compensates it completely) (underdrive/low-range gain compared to stock is 3.7/2.0 = 1.85, combined with 1:1.5 overdrive there would still be a factor 1.85/1.5 = 1.23 left in low range....still decent in combination with a diesel conversion) I also wonder what a larger underdrive would do in terms of shifting through all gears/ranges at speed, defacto creating an 8- or 10sp transmission....I first though a milder underdrive would be best, to keep a continuous range of ratio's, but perhaps it is better to have the low range gears so low that you only have to skip 1st high-range as the next higher-speed step, instead of 1st and 2nd before.... Btw, not so sure whether 3.7:1 is safe in combination with a diesel....that might create too much torque, at anything else than idling....;)) Interesting solution, food for thought & ponderings, thanx! PS: can this guy handle English-speaking customers, or would I need you as an intermediair, in terms of communications or even logistics? From: Willem-Jan Markerink To: Teppo Rapo Subject: Re: Gearbox - lower gearing c303 Reply-to: w.j.markerink@a1.nl Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 21:40:06 +0200 On 18 Apr 2007 at 20:35, I wrote: > On 18 Apr 2007 at 18:20, Teppo Rapo wrote: > > > Hi! I called him preefly, he said that there been a lot of people asking > > about the boxes. Price gone up, it some where between 900- 1100€. > > He has on extra gearbox, he will make that ready and you just send > > original as exchange. Or you send your GB and receive it complitelly > > assebled, ready to be installed. New ratio is 3,7:1 Nam! :) I will get > > one! :) :) There will be 2 new non-straight gears, just as originals and > > one axle needs to be manifactured all over again. New gears does not fit > > into gearbox with out some internal modification, carving some more room > > in there. gearbox will be just as good as original, no noise, heating or > > weak points. it will handle just as much power than original. > > > > He sad that overdrive might be possible but extriemly difficult and time > > consuming. There is some axles and bearing that needs to be > > remanifactured complitelly. It's going to cost lot's more that lowering > > the low gear. > > Okay, we can skip that then....although the 1:1.5 PTO-overdrive is > far from cheap either (2500 euro), but probably mechanically more > robust (rallye-tested). > > Btw, is 3.7:1 currently the *only* ratio possible, or is 3.0:1 still > possible too? Or even only at request, in a smaller batch? > 3.7 would make more sense to me in combination with such a 1:1.5 PTO- > overdrive, to also gain a bit underdrive (instead of a 3.0:1 that > compensates it completely) > (underdrive/low-range gain compared to stock is 3.7/2.0 = 1.85, > combined with 1:1.5 overdrive there would still be a factor 1.85/1.5 > = 1.23 left in low range....still decent in combination with a diesel > conversion) > > I also wonder what a larger underdrive would do in terms of shifting > through all gears/ranges at speed, defacto creating an 8- or 10sp > transmission....I first though a milder underdrive would be best, to > keep a continuous range of ratio's, but perhaps it is better to have > the low range gears so low that you only have to skip 1st high-range > as the next higher-speed step, instead of 1st and 2nd before.... > > Btw, not so sure whether 3.7:1 is safe in combination with a > diesel....that might create too much torque, at anything else than > idling....;)) > > > Interesting solution, food for thought & ponderings, thanx! > > > PS: can this guy handle English-speaking customers, or would I need > you as an intermediair, in terms of communications or even logistics? > > > Btw, the problem of a 'too low ratio' would be much less if the *gearbox* contained one (or more!) overdrives, as a 5/6/7-speed could have....in that case you can still make decent speed in 3.7:1 low range....but not with the 1:1 gearbox of a Volvo....8-)) So instead of solving the overall gear problem, it only stimulates the wish for a gearbox-replacement, possibly even a slush-box (because the main argument *against* a slushbox, lousy engine-braking downhill, is mostly solved with this 3.7:1 ratio....;)) More food for thought....;)))) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 19:57:29 +0200 (EET) From: Teppo Rapo To: w.j.markerink@a1.nl Subject: Re: 3.7:1 low range (was: C306 Fire truck photos posted Willem-Jan Markerink kirjoitti 14.02.2008 kello 18:26: > Btw, today I was checking a conversation from last year; have you heard > anything new lately about those Finnish 3.7:1 low gear ratio's for the > Volvo T- > case? > Is 3.7 still the only option, or has he expanded the range a bit, > perhaps > in > the other direction as well, slight overdrive? > Price still 900-1100 euro's? > > Thanx a bunch in advance for any update, now or in the future!....:)) To really be honest I do not know anything about this anymore but looking int it before summer again. I already placed an order for one box but never got it!? It might be misundestanding about dilivery of replacement box that I never sent to him but he said that he has it/them and didn't need it right away.... -teppo Teppo Rapo +358 40 5508394 Ahkiomaantie 7 FIN-96300 Rovaniemi Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 19:59:03 +0200 (EET) From: Teppo Rapo To: w.j.markerink@a1.nl Subject: Re: 3.7:1 low range (was: C306 Fire truck photos posted Willem-Jan Markerink kirjoitti 14.02.2008 kello 18:26: > Btw, today I was checking a conversation from last year; have you heard > anything new lately about those Finnish 3.7:1 low gear ratio's for the > Volvo T- > case? > Is 3.7 still the only option, or has he expanded the range a bit, > perhaps > in > the other direction as well, slight overdrive? > Price still 900-1100 euro's? > > Thanx a bunch in advance for any update, now or in the future!....:)) For the over drive he said that it is possible, very difficult to do and extrimely expencive once done.. -teppo Teppo Rapo +358 40 5508394 Ahkiomaantie 7 FIN-96300 Rovaniemi -- End --