To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Stu" <6x6@garrow.org> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:48:21 -0000 Subject: [Volvo303] Re: Photos of Recent Malaysian Trip Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com --- In Volvo303@yahoogroups.com, "outback6x6" wrote: > > Hello Stu, > I hope you buddy is ok. Kinda sucks when a tree gets in the way! > How do you like those Simex Tires? Hi Michael, Those are 36 inch Simex Extreme Trekkers and they make the world of difference. In the Malaysian mud, you need all the traction you can get, and these tyres (we usually run them around 15 PSI in slippery mud) allow you to crawl out of almost anything! The original Volvo rims aren't really wide enough for these tyres, so we need to buy a second set of rims, chop them and join them to create something wider. You'll see the tyres are quite rounded on top becuase the rims are too narrow, which is why the low tyre pressures help to flatten them out and increase the footprint. The Simex tyres do mean that the steering is hard work and that 8 hours behind the wheel doing challenging jungle tracks in tropical heat can leave you pretty shattered by the end of the day. We run 34 inch Simex Jungle trekkers on the C304 6x6 which has very light steering compared to the 4x4. Buying 7 new extreme trekkers for the 6x6 is a significant investment, so we haven't done it yet. Questions: 1) Has anyone got power steering on their Volvo? What was the donor vehicle? 2) Is anyone running a steering damper? Please provide details. regards, Stu To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 04:55:12 +0200 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Re: Photos of Recent Malaysian Trip Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 25 Apr 2005 at 0:48, Stu wrote: > Hi Michael, > > Those are 36 inch Simex Extreme Trekkers and they make the world of > difference. In the Malaysian mud, you need all the traction you can > get, and these tyres (we usually run them around 15 PSI in slippery > mud) allow you to crawl out of almost anything! > > The original Volvo rims aren't really wide enough for these tyres, so > we need to buy a second set of rims, chop them and join them to create > something wider. I guess you have plenty of rims there, otherwise it would be a shame to cannibalize a set of rims. Do you have more surplus rims than axles available currently? (I assume most surplus axles are exported with a set or rims?) > You'll see the tyres are quite rounded on top becuase > the rims are too narrow, which is why the low tyre pressures help to > flatten them out and increase the footprint. > > The Simex tyres do mean that the steering is hard work and that 8 hours > behind the wheel doing challenging jungle tracks in tropical heat can > leave you pretty shattered by the end of the day. We run 34 inch Simex > Jungle trekkers on the C304 6x6 which has very light steering compared > to the 4x4. Interesting....any idea why? Different gearing ratio I assume? Ever counted the difference, lock-to-lock? (I think Volvo mentions that spec somewhere, but never noticed a difference between 4x4 and 6x6) > Buying 7 new extreme trekkers for the 6x6 is a significant > investment, so we haven't done it yet. > > Questions: > 1) Has anyone got power steering on their Volvo? What was the donor > vehicle? I have now heard of 2 rather 'official' power-steering conversions, first one by a Swedish firebrigade (on a C306, trying to figure out more about that one, most importantly *where* it was done), and more recently from 2 pictures of a TGB13 sample in Norkoping....yes, a military version power steering....sadly no clue whatsoever about it's status....might as well have been a prototype, who knows. > 2) Is anyone running a steering damper? Please provide details. Btw, are you aware that 'return-to-center' steering dampers exist? (with two springs, one on each side) 4Way-Suspensions in Australia was one of the first offering those, IIRC. Different strength for powersteering vs non-powersteering. (they offered the same concept with normal axle-shocks, claimed to keep a better ride-height, but I never understood the clue of that application....8-)) (one way or another you are fighting the main springs) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/main_4x4.htm To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "b109459" Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:50:54 -0000 Subject: [Volvo303] Re: Photos of Recent Malaysian Trip Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com It's common to use Volvo 164 powersteering components on the 303 to build your own PS kit. Works great and without it I would have a hard time steering my 40x17 tires. The original PS fitted on the 303's I've seen use Danfoss components. I can look into the Danfoss numbers and provide photos of my own 164 PS and the original if anyone is interested. regards Peter To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: Teppo Rapo Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:01:21 +0300 (EEST) Subject: [Volvo303] Power steering Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com > It's common to use Volvo 164 powersteering components on the 303 to > build your own PS kit. Works great and without it I would have a > hard time steering my 40x17 tires. > > The original PS fitted on the 303's I've seen use Danfoss components. > I can look into the Danfoss numbers and provide photos of my own 164 > PS and the original if anyone is interested. > > regards Peter Please, any info about power steering would be nice! I do have that in my 'what-to-do' list. -teppo To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Jens" Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:27:53 -0000 Subject: [Volvo303] Re: Photos of Recent Malaysian Trip Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com --- In Volvo303@yahoogroups.com, "b109459" wrote: > > It's common to use Volvo 164 powersteering components on the 303 to > build your own PS kit. Works great and without it I would have a > hard time steering my 40x17 tires. > > The original PS fitted on the 303's I've seen use Danfoss components. > I can look into the Danfoss numbers and provide photos of my own 164 > PS and the original if anyone is interested. > > regards Peter > Hi Peter, I am interesting in the Danfoss components. I want to change the B30 to Nissan SD33T and a hydraulic-pump for powersteering is mounted at this engine. Do you know how the Danfoss-ps works ? It is a typical ps like the ps in other 4-wheelers with rigid axles and leaf springs ? Thank you Jens To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "djklabbe" Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:28:47 -0000 Subject: Re: SV: [Volvo303] Power steering Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com --- In Volvo303@yahoogroups.com, Bj=F8rn Andersen=20 wrote: > Hi Peter, > It would be great with some photos and som part# for your PS kit. > > Thanks, > Bjørn Andersen :-) > Some Swedish electric companys c303 had Power steering they use a Torque amplifier TAD from sauer-danfoss and a wickers Hyd pump on crankchaft front. http://www.sauer-danfoss.com/domdb/SASproducts.nsf/2dd81f77829d09d086256591004f57d7/54D2C7A5F197504C86256AD30064BEE6/$file/520L0468.pdf That Steeringsystem was made off Claes at www.tatanka.nu To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Jens" Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:24:20 -0000 Subject: Re: SV: [Volvo303] Power steering Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com --- In Volvo303@yahoogroups.com, "djklabbe" wrote: > > Some Swedish electric companys c303 had Power steering they use a > Torque amplifier TAD from sauer-danfoss and a wickers Hyd pump on > crankchaft front. > That Steeringsystem was made off Claes at www.tatanka.nu Thank you :-) Easy for me to get a part from a german company ... Do you have more informations about the required modifications at the Volvo steering ? The steering column have to customize ? greetings Jens To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:09:53 +0200 Subject: Re: Power Steering [Volvo303] (was: Photos of Recent Malaysian Trip Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 25 Apr 2005 at 7:50, b109459 wrote: > It's common to use Volvo 164 powersteering components on the 303 to > build your own PS kit. Works great and without it I would have a > hard time steering my 40x17 tires. > > The original PS fitted on the 303's I've seen use Danfoss components. > I can look into the Danfoss numbers and provide photos of my own 164 > PS and the original if anyone is interested. Hmm....what does 'original PS' mean?....;)) Factory option for civil market, or even optional on military models? And is it listed anywhere in the parts-manuals? -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/main_4x4.htm To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Sean Long" Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:07:15 +0800 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Power steering Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:01:21 +0300 (EEST) Teppo Rapo wrote: > > It's common to use Volvo 164 powersteering components on the 303 to > > build your own PS kit. Works great and without it I would have a=20 > > hard time steering my 40x17 tires. > > > > The original PS fitted on the 303's I've seen use Danfoss components. > > I can look into the Danfoss numbers and provide photos of my own 164 > > PS and the original if anyone is interested. > > > > regards Peter > > > Please, any info about power steering would be nice! > I do have that in my 'what-to-do' list. > -teppo > Count me in on the 164 PS mod! It'll definately be a great mod especially when the 304 is taken offroad! We have had several bruises, knocks and even fractured finger from the "wild" steering wheel!! To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gr=F8nntass?= Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 11:38:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Power steering Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com Sean Long : > > Count me in on the 164 PS mod! It'll definately be a > great mod especially when the 304 is taken offroad! We > have had several bruises, knocks and even fractured finger > from the "wild" steering wheel!! You'll probably be abel to avoid this by mounting a stearing-damper. And remember to keep the fingers on the outside of the steering-wheel. I have some extra tyres from a disengaged C303 with power-stearing. Accoring to the owner the PS made you loose the feeling with what happens. I think it's wery important that you don't make the PS to strong. What kind of PS which is on this C303 I don't know. Christian To: From: Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 21:41:22 +0200 Subject: [Volvo303] Power steering pictures Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com I've tried to put some information about the installation of power steering in C303. Take a look at http://hem.bredband.net/b109459 I earlier wrote about using 164 parts but I belive it's much easier to use a torque amplifier (like the Danfoss TAD100) and a hydralic pump that meets the requirements. In my car the power steering is home built and I was told it was 164 parts when I bought the car, I've tried to read the numbers etc but it's hard to find out if its from 164 or something else. It is ZF parts. Anyway the best or easiest would be to use a tractor steering like the TAD100 as it won't be a complete rebuild of the steering. regards Peter To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: rplars Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 19:19:06 -0000 Subject: [Volvo303] Re: Tell me a Story... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com --- In Volvo303@yahoogroups.com, "Brett Allen Johnson" wrote: > I am very new to the C303 world. I will be acquiring one in the > Future, but first I need more information. > Would anyone here have a Web Link to the History of the Volvo C303? > Is there a catchy Name for this vehicle, like the Unimog or Pinzgauer? > What is the difference between the C303, 304, TGB111c, etc.? > Do these vehicles come in a stock diesel or is that a after market > thing? > Thank you for all your help, Brett Before I bought my volvo C303 I did some homework, please feel free to fill in the blanks cause im new to this as well (I have owned a Range Rover -73 for many years): C303 is the civilian name and TGB-11 is the military designation, TGB is an abbreviation of the swedish word "Terr=E4nGBil", in short "crosscountry vehicle". The modelname stands for 3(litre displacement)0(?)3(000)kg totalweight. The gearing is (approx 1:6). The C304 is the civilian name of the TGB-13 military designation. 6x6. This model is heavier so the gearing is lower (approx 1:7) The C306 is the civilian name of the TGB-20 military designation. 6x6 As far as I know there were no diesel engines ever fitted to these cars from Volvo, which in my opinion is very odd. There is a swedish page http://www.soldf.com/tgb11.html with lots of data and a little history about the vehicle. Quote translated from the page above(bear with me in swedish) "In the Swedish terrain it is advantegous with narrow vehicles, wider vehicles like the HUMVEE will have difficulties driving on the narrow paths in the terrain" This link is basically the same but in English: http://www.tgb-sidan.se/1C300.html They even made a working amfibious prototype (TGB-12) and a 8x8 version of C306. The civilian model mostly C303 was sold in numbers to Vattenfall, a large powerproducer for maintenance of powerlines, these were retrofitted with servo assisted steering (Torque amplifier TAD from sauer-danfoss and a wickers Hyd pump on crankchaft front) 30 units were fitted. (See forum at http://www.real4x4forums.com/PinzgauerBBS/) The nickname of the C202, C303 is "valp", swedish for puppy, probably cause the softtops sides flapping out like dogears on the early C202's and for the short and chubby apperance. Regards, Rickard http://www.real4x4forums.com/PinzgauerBBS/viewtopic.php?t=904 Claes Hellbom (previously Blomquist) Tatanka Motorsport Box 61 447 22 Vårgårda Telephone: +46 322 62 05 54 Mobile: +46 708 25 44 05 Telefax: +46 322 62 00 55 E-Mail: claes@tatanka.nu To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 14:53:40 +0200 Subject: [Volvo303] Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com I re-checked the gallery of our French member David Touitou (with the blue ex-Vattenvall panel-hatch C303), to see if I could spot any details of its power steering (aftermarket indeed, no factory PS, although even the military had at least one sample, in a TGB13). But despite not finding any such picture[*], I noticed he added a nice last picture to his gallery, not announced yet I believe....;)) http://gallery.solexine.fr/C303/Spirou_Fantasio_Des_haricots_partout_page_43 [*] can you make a few such pix, David?....in particular of the steering collumn? (that is apparently the location where they mount the actuator, at least in current conversions, but perhaps yours used a different system) (reminds me that I should also check whether any of the two can be combined with a steering damper as well....nothing beats overkill....;)) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: From: "frondello" Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 14:46:54 +0100 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com do you have email of david touitou? To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 15:57:38 +0200 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 7 Sep 2005 at 14:53, Willem-Jan Markerink wrote: > I re-checked the gallery of our French member David Touitou (with the > blue ex-Vattenvall panel-hatch C303), to see if I could spot any > details of its power steering (aftermarket indeed, no factory PS, > although even the military had at least one sample, in a TGB13). > But despite not finding any such picture[*], I noticed he added a > nice last picture to his gallery, not announced yet I believe....;)) > > http://gallery.solexine.fr/C303/Spirou_Fantasio_Des_haricots_partout_page_43 Darn (list)server-based line-breaks: http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z4C3210CB (now one size larger too....:)) > > [*] can you make a few such pix, David?....in particular of the > steering collumn? (that is apparently the location where they mount > the actuator, at least in current conversions, but perhaps yours used > a different system) > (reminds me that I should also check whether any of the two can be > combined with a steering damper as well....nothing beats > overkill....;)) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 16:02:10 +0200 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 7 Sep 2005 at 14:46, frondello wrote: > do you have email of david touitou? He is on the list, and has posted before, I guess/hope he will join this thread soon. No need to bother him with private questions about the power-steering anyway, we already did that the first time he announced that gallery....;)) (but I couldn't remember whether I/we asked for such specific pix) (also check the archive for a smaller thread on those retreaded Michelin-tires) (actually, I found a German/Austrian retreading company who supplied this type of thread, but only from 20" upwards (but they haven't replied on my questions yet either)) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "David Touitou" Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 14:06:25 -0000 Subject: [Volvo303] Re: Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com --- In Volvo303@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" wrote: > I re-checked the gallery of our French member David Touitou (with the > blue ex-Vattenvall panel-hatch C303), That's me. 8) > to see if I could spot any > details of its power steering (aftermarket indeed, no factory PS, > although even the military had at least one sample, in a TGB13). I did not take special pictures of it. But I can (as soon as I've found the battery charger for my camera). > But despite not finding any such picture[*], I noticed he added a > nice last picture to his gallery, not announced yet I believe....;)) > http://gallery.solexine.fr/C303/Spirou_Fantasio_Des_haricots_partout_p > age_43 I found this one while reading a "Spirou & Fantasio" (I guess unknown outside France & BeNeLux) comics. Doesn't it look nice ? > [*] can you make a few such pix, David?....in particular of the > steering collumn? (that is apparently the location where they mount > the actuator, at least in current conversions, but perhaps yours used > a different system) Mine looks a lot like the one I've seen somewhere on the web (Yahoo Photo gallery ?) with the Danfoss-burn-your-knees thing. David. To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "David Touitou" Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 14:24:33 -0000 Subject: [Volvo303] Re: Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com Me again. > Mine looks a lot like the one I've seen somewhere on the web (Yahoo > Photo gallery ?) with the Danfoss-burn-your-knees thing. It's here : http://www.amanfamily.se/volvo/danfoss_ps.htm My knees burner Danfoss thing looks exactly the same. To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 16:40:02 +0200 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Re: Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 7 Sep 2005 at 14:06, David Touitou wrote: > --- In Volvo303@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" > wrote: > > I re-checked the gallery of our French member David Touitou (with the > > blue ex-Vattenvall panel-hatch C303), > > That's me. > 8) > > > to see if I could spot any > > details of its power steering (aftermarket indeed, no factory PS, > > although even the military had at least one sample, in a TGB13). > > I did not take special pictures of it. > But I can (as soon as I've found the battery charger for my camera). Yes please, no hurry, but definitely interested to see what's involved. > > But despite not finding any such picture[*], I noticed he added a > > nice last picture to his gallery, not announced yet I believe....;)) > > http://gallery.solexine.fr/C303/Spirou_Fantasio_Des_haricots_partout_p > > age_43 > > I found this one while reading a "Spirou & Fantasio" (I guess unknown > outside France & BeNeLux) comics. Doesn't it look nice ? > > > [*] can you make a few such pix, David?....in particular of the > > steering collumn? (that is apparently the location where they mount > > the actuator, at least in current conversions, but perhaps yours used > > a different system) > > Mine looks a lot like the one I've seen somewhere on the web (Yahoo > Photo gallery ?) with the Danfoss-burn-your-knees thing. Hmm....that (space) aspect was indeed one of my concerns, but I now realize that it would radiate the typical hydraulic heat as well....hmm....one more good reason to make it switchable, on/off, to avoid the heat if no PS is necessary, like at higher speeds/highways? Was the Yahoo picture an actual Volvo sample, or a generic picture from Danfoss? -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 16:52:48 +0200 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Re: Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 7 Sep 2005 at 14:24, David Touitou wrote: > Me again. > > > Mine looks a lot like the one I've seen somewhere on the web (Yahoo > > Photo gallery ?) with the Danfoss-burn-your-knees thing. > > It's here : http://www.amanfamily.se/volvo/danfoss_ps.htm Ah yes....seems he got rid of the mechanical fan already, and mounted a crankshaft-powered hydro-pump instead? I have seen something similar on the Dakar XC70 (with TGB11-core below); the fan-driveshaft now powers alternator and waterpump (I think), so that a damaged V-belt would not make the vehicle fail completely....:)) OTOH, given that this fan-driveshaft can transfer more power than a V- belt driven pump, I might prefer running a heavy airco-pump in that location....:)))) (I recently read that in some marine-applications, they also use engine-driven airco-pumps, for very fast & temporarily cooling of fridge & freezer, combined with cold-sinks (that can store energy/cold, and slowly release it when temperature rises)) > My knees burner Danfoss thing looks exactly the same. Hmm....we could of course insulate the darn thing, at least with the typical heat-pipe metal wrap stuff.... Or is it too tight/cramped around your knees already, no space left to add a centimeter of insulation around it? Not good for future generations either, so close to your crotch....definitely need insulation there....;)))) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "David Touitou" Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 15:45:19 -0000 Subject: [Volvo303] Re: Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com --- In Volvo303@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" wrote: > Ah yes....seems he got rid of the mechanical fan already, and mounted > a crankshaft-powered hydro-pump instead? It seems (actually, you know this pics, you're the one that posted the link 8)). I've made the pictures on my C303 : I have both the mechanical fan and the crankshaft-powered hydro-pump. Anyway the mechanical fan is not crankshaft powered but connected to the coolant pump (which is powered by a drivebelt to the crankshat pulley). See page 26:1 in the manual. I hope to remove the mechanical fan soon anyway. The pics are here : http://gallery.solexine.fr/C303/PICT0004 - overall http://gallery.solexine.fr/C303/PICT0002 - pump http://gallery.solexine.fr/C303/PICT0003 - steering column > > My knees burner Danfoss thing looks exactly the same. > > Hmm....we could of course insulate the darn thing, at least with the > typical heat-pipe metal wrap stuff.... > Or is it too tight/cramped around your knees already, no space left > to add a centimeter of insulation around it? There's plenty of space left but as I burnt myself only a couple of time (touching the thing) it is not that urgent to fix it. I'm not sure it will like to run with heat insulation anyway. David. To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 18:41:21 +0200 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Re: Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 7 Sep 2005 at 15:45, David Touitou wrote: > --- In Volvo303@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" > wrote: > > Ah yes....seems he got rid of the mechanical fan already, and mounted > > a crankshaft-powered hydro-pump instead? > > It seems (actually, you know this pics, you're the one that posted the > link 8)). That wasn't me back then AFAIK.... > I've made the pictures on my C303 : I have both the mechanical fan and > the crankshaft-powered hydro-pump. > Anyway the mechanical fan is not crankshaft powered but connected to > the coolant pump (which is powered by a drivebelt to the crankshat > pulley). See page 26:1 in the manual. Aha, wrong assumption. Also, 'crank-driven' would have been the correct vocabulaire I think. > I hope to remove the mechanical fan soon anyway. > > The pics are here : > http://gallery.solexine.fr/C303/PICT0004 - overall > http://gallery.solexine.fr/C303/PICT0002 - pump > http://gallery.solexine.fr/C303/PICT0003 - steering column Explains most of my questions indeed, thanx! > > > My knees burner Danfoss thing looks exactly the same. > > > > Hmm....we could of course insulate the darn thing, at least with the > > typical heat-pipe metal wrap stuff.... > > Or is it too tight/cramped around your knees already, no space left > > to add a centimeter of insulation around it? > > There's plenty of space left but as I burnt myself only a couple of > time (touching the thing) it is not that urgent to fix it. > I'm not sure it will like to run with heat insulation anyway. Hmmm....the cooling should be done elsewhere in the circuit, certainly not in my crotch....8-)) Nice handwarmer in winter though....:)) Willem (now contemplating what else to power with the hydraulics, seems a plenty large pump....:)) Jan Hmm....a hydro-driven airco-pump? PS, for the mad-plan-aficionado's: given a PTO-gear/control equipped rig, this would be *the* starting point to create a PTI (power-take- in) configuration....hooking a hydro-motor to the PTO output shaft, powered by this crank-driven hydro-pump....shift to neutral, and have the ultimate crawling rig.... (this marvellous trick was apparently invented on Iceland: http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/PTO_hydro-reversal-crawler.txt ) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "David Touitou" Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 16:50:58 -0000 Subject: [Volvo303] Re: Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com > > http://gallery.solexine.fr/C303/PICT0004 - overall Wrong one... The correct one is : http://gallery.solexine.fr/C303/PICT0004_001 > > http://gallery.solexine.fr/C303/PICT0002 - pump > > http://gallery.solexine.fr/C303/PICT0003 - steering column Wrong one too... The correct one is : http://gallery.solexine.fr/C303/PICT0003_001 Merci Eric, sorry all. To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "djklabbe" Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 17:36:24 -0000 Subject: [Volvo303] Re: Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com I find two pictures of the power steering type on http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/Volvo-TGB/ the pictures is http://web.telia.com/~u21702421/Servo+1.jpg http://web.telia.com/~u21702421/Servo+2.jpg Klas Karlsson To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "extrm303" Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 01:40:17 -0000 Subject: [Volvo303] Re: Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com David, > Mine looks a lot like the one I've seen somewhere on the web (Yahoo > Photo gallery ?) with the Danfoss-burn-your-knees thing. > > David. David, Aside of your heat concerns of the TAD there are important reasons care should be taken with a Danfoss TAD steering system primarily due to its internal cab location and proximity to the operator. In 1979 and revised in 1996, the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) issued a "Surface Vehicle Standard for Hydraulic Hose Assemblies" (SAE J1273). Of particular note is section 4, Safety Considerations and specifically 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3, Fluid Injections, Whipping Hose, and Burns and Conveyed Fluid, respectively. Most sobering is the section 4.1, Fluid Injections ..... " Fine streams of escaping pressurized fluid can penetrate skin and enter a human body. These fluid injections may cause severe tissue damage and loss of limb. It continues "If a fluid-injection accident occurs, see a doctor immediately. DO NO DELAY OR TREAT AS A SIMPLE CUT! Any fluid injected into the skin must be surgically removed within a few hours or gangrene may result." The Standard continues on about other safety concerns such as Fire and Explosions from Conveyed Fluids, Fire and Explosions from Static-Electric Discharge, Electrical Shock and other safety considerations I believe come into play with a "Cab Located TAD Power Steering System" such as the one in your vehicle. Although I applaud the design effort and intention, safety considerations need to be attended to. Lastly, I'm not convinced that the multi link steering mechanism of the C3- Series is stout enough to handle the many cycles of powered steering leverage that the TAD can apply, specifically in a load situation where a front wheel may be trapped by an object, rock, root, rut yet the driver commands the TAD to turn. I believe that is a short cut to fatigue and eventually failure. Perhaps another approach is warranted. Bon Chance! To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 12:09:23 +0200 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Re: Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 8 Sep 2005 at 1:40, extrm303 wrote: > David, > > > Mine looks a lot like the one I've seen somewhere on the web (Yahoo > > Photo gallery ?) with the Danfoss-burn-your-knees thing. > > > > David. > > David, > > Aside of your heat concerns of the TAD there are important reasons care should be taken > with a Danfoss TAD steering system primarily due to its internal cab location and > proximity to the operator. In 1979 and revised in 1996, the Society of Automotive > Engineers (SAE) issued a "Surface Vehicle Standard for Hydraulic Hose Assemblies" (SAE > J1273). Of particular note is section 4, Safety Considerations and specifically 4.1, 4.2 and > 4.3, Fluid Injections, Whipping Hose, and Burns and Conveyed Fluid, respectively. Most > sobering is the section 4.1, Fluid Injections ..... " Fine streams of escaping pressurized > fluid can penetrate skin and enter a human body. These fluid injections may cause severe > tissue damage and loss of limb. It continues "If a fluid-injection accident occurs, see a > doctor immediately. DO NO DELAY OR TREAT AS A SIMPLE CUT! Any fluid injected into the > skin must be surgically removed within a few hours or gangrene may result." > > The Standard continues on about other safety concerns such as Fire and Explosions from > Conveyed Fluids, Fire and Explosions from Static-Electric Discharge, Electrical Shock and > other safety considerations I believe come into play with a "Cab Located TAD Power > Steering System" such as the one in your vehicle. Although I applaud the design effort and > intention, safety considerations need to be attended to. Lastly, I'm not convinced that the > multi link steering mechanism of the C3- Series is stout enough to handle the many cycles > of powered steering leverage that the TAD can apply, specifically in a load situation where > a front wheel may be trapped by an object, rock, root, rut yet the driver commands the > TAD to turn. I believe that is a short cut to fatigue and eventually failure. Perhaps another > approach is warranted. > > Bon Chance! The odd thing is: Even Swedish firebrigades have done such conversions recently, on refurbished/overhauled C306's. (altough I am now trying to find out for sure whether they used the exact same PS configuration) Also, it makes my earlier ponderings, about a pump that can be switched off completely, even more relevant. Main problem will probably be the crank-driven concept....switching off a belt-driven pump (like an airco-pump) seems easier to me. Alternatively one could perhaps use a variable-flow pump (like some *modern* airco-pumps are too....continuous running, flow from 0 to max (piston/wobble-plate design, if I have the terminology (& english vocabulary) correct). -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "extrm303" Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 16:41:36 -0000 Subject: [Volvo303] Re: Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com --- In Volvo303@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" wrote: > The odd thing is: > Even Swedish firebrigades have done such conversions recently, on > refurbished/overhauled C306's. > (altough I am now trying to find out for sure whether they used the > exact same PS configuration) Perhaps this may be the case. But from my research with Volvo Truck engineers, exposure to many Swedish fire vehicles, personal hands on experience with a few and ownership of a Tollarp conversion myself, I'm very confident that Volvo never offered an OE PS, nor did Tollarp or other value add vendors. Claes has admitted to converting 20-30 in a quasi manufacturing run, primarily, if not exclusively for the Vattenfall (blue trucks). I also have no knowledge of him, or others, converting any of the road maintenance trucks (yellow). Although I applaud the fire brigades recent supposed efforts on a refurbed 306, that still does not make an in cab TAD safe. It just reinforces the obvious: that fire fighters are not by nature risk averse and also, it begs the question of would I bring a calculating toting automotive engineer to fight a fire? My earlier post is more of a cautionary note reinforced with years of engineering and safety research of the SAE. If indeed one opts out for an in cab TAD then extra precautions should be taken to completely isolate the control/actuator and hosing from the operator such as complete enclosure and double sleeving of lines and or fixtures. > Also, it makes my earlier ponderings, about a pump that can be > switched off completely, even more relevant. > Main problem will probably be the crank-driven concept....switching > off a belt-driven pump (like an airco-pump) seems easier to me. > > Alternatively one could perhaps use a variable-flow pump (like some > *modern* airco-pumps are too....continuous running, flow from 0 to > max (piston/wobble-plate design, if I have the terminology (& english > vocabulary) correct). Designing a good PS is not a trivial task. Delivering a system that has ample, proportional and timely assist with ability to self-center and appropriate wheel/road feedback isn't obvious. Even in a simple configuration, unlike the C3-Series with their drop links, bell-cranks, drag links, tie rods etc., you must take into consideration variables such as kingpin torque, steering axle weight, coefficient of friction, tire width, and kingpin offset with their individual variances. Introducing more sophistication as you suggest with proportional steering with quiescent modes will require a higher level of engineering and costs to integrate vehicle speed, and absolute steering wheel position into the PS equation. Not that it can't or shouldn't be done, however, I'm not sure if I want to be on either the engineering or check book side of that equation. Clearly, there are many ways to "skin the PS cat", from Saginaw boxes, to TADs to ram assists, etc. My simple suggestion is for vehicles such as the Volvos, one should keep hundreds plus pounds of hydraulic pressure and hundreds of degrees of heated hydraulic fluid away from ones privates. Of course this is a worse case scenario, I just choose to not be any where near that worse case and keep my privates! To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: jb Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:55:35 -0700 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Re: Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com There's no great mystery to power steering. It's a very simple and usually reliable system. Adapting a power box from something like a Scout would be pretty easy I think and a good Saginaw "can o' ham" style pump can be easily fitted to any engine. Pump pressures rarely exceed 1200-1400psi in an automotive application and shouldn't cause any concern. In a standard PS setup there would only be one pressure hose from the pump to the steering box. As long as this hose is kept in good condition there isn't much worry about high pressure-leak amputation. :) For my full hydro system I used Goodyear hydraulic hose which I built myself in the garage with locking ends. The hose was rated to 1600psi and never leaked a drop. You can find it online if you need to make custom hoses. -jb To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "extrm303" Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 18:25:10 -0000 Subject: [Volvo303] Re: Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com JB, --- In Volvo303@yahoogroups.com, jb wrote: > There's no great mystery to power steering. It's a very simple and usually > reliable system. Adapting a power box from something like a Scout would be > pretty easy I think and a good Saginaw "can o' ham" style pump can be easily > fitted to any engine. Pump pressures rarely exceed 1200-1400psi in an > automotive application and shouldn't cause any concern. In a standard PS > setup there would only be one pressure hose from the pump to the steering > box. As long as this hose is kept in good condition there isn't much worry > about high pressure-leak amputation. :) Good to know that its that simple and safe. I'm aware that there's been quite a bit of talk, concern, attention and efforts regarding power steering for the Volvos for a long time now. Glad to see someone has figured out pump type (volume, pressure), pump placement, pump drive, direction sensing, power actuation and amount along with hose type and placement for the C3-Series. > For my full hydro system I used Goodyear hydraulic hose which I built > myself in the garage with locking ends. The hose was rated to 1600psi and > never leaked a drop. You can find it online if you need to make custom > hoses. So, Goodyear hoses and a "Saginaw "can o' ham" style pump" along with a "full hydro system" is the way to go? Are full hydro systems street legal in most states and how are you handling centering? Are Saginaw boxes full hydro? I'm confused! How much of the front bumper and driver side floor board and body panel did you cut out to install the protruding and much larger Saginaw steering box, assuming you put it at the end of the steering column? Did you end up using the cross member bell-crank or did you machine up a new longer drop link or longer drag link to handle the Saginaw front to back motion vs. the original side to side steering movement, or did you just swap the primary steering pivot to the driver side and kept the original tie rod and what impact did that have on the steering dynamics and geometry? Did you recast a new driver side king pin for the swap, or can you re-use the passenger side one, or some other available bolt on? Even though it's simple ,I'm afraid I don't understand it all and still have so many more questions? Would you be willing to share your pictures or drawings on how you implemented your Volvo power steering? Thanks. To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 21:18:34 +0200 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Re: Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 8 Sep 2005 at 16:41, extrm303 wrote: > --- In Volvo303@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" wrote: > > > The odd thing is: > > Even Swedish firebrigades have done such conversions recently, on > > refurbished/overhauled C306's. > > (altough I am now trying to find out for sure whether they used the > > exact same PS configuration) > > Perhaps this may be the case. But from my research with Volvo Truck > engineers, exposure to many Swedish fire vehicles, personal > hands on experience with a few and ownership of a Tollarp > conversion myself, A C303/C306, or a different model/brand? > I'm very confident that Volvo never offered an OE > PS, nor did Tollarp or other value add vendors. I only know that the above-mentioned conversion wasn't done at Tatanka (I asked Claes), but I never suggested anything OEM, neither Volvo nor Tollarp. However, I am pretty sure that *if* all this was so dangerous, then particular in Sweden there would be some kind of road/car safety- regulation banning it. > Claes has admitted to > converting 20-30 in a quasi manufacturing run, primarily, if not > exclusively for the Vattenfall (blue trucks). I also have no knowledge of > him, or others, converting any of the road maintenance trucks (yellow). > Although I applaud the fire brigades recent supposed efforts on a > refurbed 306, that still does not make an in cab TAD safe. It just > reinforces the obvious: that fire fighters are not by nature risk averse > and also, it begs the question of would I bring a calculating toting > automotive engineer to fight a fire? > > My earlier post is more of a cautionary note reinforced with years of > engineering and safety research of the SAE. If indeed one opts out for > an in cab TAD then extra precautions should be taken to completely > isolate the control/actuator and hosing from the operator such as > complete enclosure and double sleeving of lines and or fixtures. Btw, how does a metal-armoured pressure hose fit into this safety analysis? (either galvanized or stainless-steel metal webbing) > > Also, it makes my earlier ponderings, about a pump that can be > > switched off completely, even more relevant. > > Main problem will probably be the crank-driven concept....switching > > off a belt-driven pump (like an airco-pump) seems easier to me. > > > > Alternatively one could perhaps use a variable-flow pump (like some > > *modern* airco-pumps are too....continuous running, flow from 0 to > > max (piston/wobble-plate design, if I have the terminology (& english > > vocabulary) correct). > > Designing a good PS is not a trivial task. Delivering a system that has > ample, proportional and timely assist with ability to self-center and > appropriate wheel/road feedback isn't obvious. Even in a simple > configuration, unlike the C3-Series with their drop links, bell-cranks, > drag links, tie rods etc., you must take into consideration variables > such as kingpin torque, steering axle weight, coefficient of friction, > tire width, and kingpin offset with their individual variances. > Introducing more sophistication as you suggest with proportional > steering with quiescent modes will require a higher level > of engineering and costs to integrate vehicle speed, and absolute > steering wheel position into the PS equation. Not that it can't or > shouldn't be done, however, I'm not sure if I want to be on either > the engineering or check book side of that equation. But what about a crude on/off switch? (I believe the crude solution is a bypass circuit, so that the pump runs in a closed loop, but I am not sure whether that takes all pressure from the other, dead loop, instantly) > Clearly, there are many ways to "skin the PS cat", from Saginaw > boxes, to TADs to ram assists, etc. My simple suggestion is for > vehicles such as the Volvos, one should keep hundreds plus pounds > of hydraulic pressure and hundreds of degrees of heated hydraulic > fluid away from ones privates. Of course this is a worse case scenario, > I just choose to not be any where near that worse case and keep my > privates! I am not so sure that any crash seriously enough to cut a hose in that proximity, would have kept you alive otherwise....;)) Also: the chance of ending up against a tree or oncoming traffic is quite a bit higher *without* power steering....this isn't a simple yes/no risk-analysis....;)) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 22:17:02 +0200 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Re: Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 8 Sep 2005 at 21:18, Willem-Jan Markerink wrote: > On 8 Sep 2005 at 16:41, extrm303 wrote: > > > --- In Volvo303@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" wrote: > > > > > The odd thing is: > > > Even Swedish firebrigades have done such conversions recently, on > > > refurbished/overhauled C306's. > > > (altough I am now trying to find out for sure whether they used the > > > exact same PS configuration) > > > > Perhaps this may be the case. But from my research with Volvo Truck > > engineers, exposure to many Swedish fire vehicles, personal > > hands on experience with a few and ownership of a Tollarp > > conversion myself, > > A C303/C306, or a different model/brand? Forgot to mention, if not online already: send pix!....;)) Btw Tollarp & different brand/era: here a 60's IHC Travelette conversion: http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/IHC (I was hoping it was based on a Travelall, with it's lovely 'wing' type tail lights) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "extrm303" Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 21:41:35 -0000 Subject: [Volvo303] Re: Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com --- In Volvo303@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" wrote: > On 8 Sep 2005 at 16:41, extrm303 wrote: > > > --- In Volvo303@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" wrote: > > > > > The odd thing is: > > > Even Swedish firebrigades have done such conversions recently, on > > > refurbished/overhauled C306's. > > > (altough I am now trying to find out for sure whether they used the > > > exact same PS configuration) > > > > Perhaps this may be the case. But from my research with Volvo Truck > > engineers, exposure to many Swedish fire vehicles, personal > > hands on experience with a few and ownership of a Tollarp > > conversion myself, > > A C303/C306, or a different model/brand? Both Volvo models. > > I'm very confident that Volvo never offered an OE > > PS, nor did Tollarp or other value add vendors. > > I only know that the above-mentioned conversion wasn't done at > Tatanka (I asked Claes), but I never suggested anything OEM, neither > Volvo nor Tollarp. > However, I am pretty sure that *if* all this was so dangerous, then > particular in Sweden there would be some kind of road/car safety- > regulation banning it. Perhaps, however, "after-market mods" on 20-30 vehicles out of thousands might just be in the "noise" and probably flew beneath the regulatory bureaucracy radar. I can't speak for those Swedish safety officials or for that time. Nor, do I believe that civilization has arrived at a safety Nirvana and all of mans contraptions and inventions hover in some safety panacea devoid of error or shortcomings verified and insured by some omnipotent safety organism. Mans history and our technology landscape is littered with wrecks (except for Sweden by your position) that somehow have fallen through well meaning safety nets and other cracks where innocent victims were not protected through oversight, ignorance, malfeasance, etc. "Caveat Emptor" is always the order of the day!! > > Claes has admitted to > > converting 20-30 in a quasi manufacturing run, primarily, if not > > exclusively for the Vattenfall (blue trucks). I also have no knowledge of > > him, or others, converting any of the road maintenance trucks (yellow). > > Although I applaud the fire brigades recent supposed efforts on a > > refurbed 306, that still does not make an in cab TAD safe. It just > > reinforces the obvious: that fire fighters are not by nature risk averse > > and also, it begs the question of would I bring a calculating toting > > automotive engineer to fight a fire? > > > > My earlier post is more of a cautionary note reinforced with years of > > engineering and safety research of the SAE. If indeed one opts out for > > an in cab TAD then extra precautions should be taken to completely > > isolate the control/actuator and hosing from the operator such as > > complete enclosure and double sleeving of lines and or fixtures. > > Btw, how does a metal-armoured pressure hose fit into this safety > analysis? > (either galvanized or stainless-steel metal webbing) I suspect that it is superior to most standard PS hose in use today. Perhaps an actual hydraulic hard fixed line might work also? > > > Also, it makes my earlier ponderings, about a pump that can be > > > switched off completely, even more relevant. > > > Main problem will probably be the crank-driven concept....switching > > > off a belt-driven pump (like an airco-pump) seems easier to me. > > > > > > Alternatively one could perhaps use a variable-flow pump (like some > > > *modern* airco-pumps are too....continuous running, flow from 0 to > > > max (piston/wobble-plate design, if I have the terminology (& english > > > vocabulary) correct). > > > > Designing a good PS is not a trivial task. Delivering a system that has > > ample, proportional and timely assist with ability to self-center and > > appropriate wheel/road feedback isn't obvious. Even in a simple > > configuration, unlike the C3-Series with their drop links, bell-cranks, > > drag links, tie rods etc., you must take into consideration variables > > such as kingpin torque, steering axle weight, coefficient of friction, > > tire width, and kingpin offset with their individual variances. > > Introducing more sophistication as you suggest with proportional > > steering with quiescent modes will require a higher level > > of engineering and costs to integrate vehicle speed, and absolute > > steering wheel position into the PS equation. Not that it can't or > > shouldn't be done, however, I'm not sure if I want to be on either > > the engineering or check book side of that equation. > > But what about a crude on/off switch? > (I believe the crude solution is a bypass circuit, so that the pump > runs in a closed loop, but I am not sure whether that takes all > pressure from the other, dead loop, instantly) Sounds feasible, but who or what controls that "Neutral Switch" and how does the system know it's at neutral (no flow needed)? Also what process is in place so that when that "state" changes the system becomes active? Are their signal/logic/circuit delays, pump spin-up time requirements, what are the fill rates of your empty closed loop, do these add to a significant phase lag delay from moment of turn to actual power actuated assist that could introduce over or under-steering residuals or artifacts. These are some of the questions and concerns that have surrounded similar aftermarket PS approaches in PINZ land. > > Clearly, there are many ways to "skin the PS cat", from Saginaw > > boxes, to TADs to ram assists, etc. My simple suggestion is for > > vehicles such as the Volvos, one should keep hundreds plus pounds > > of hydraulic pressure and hundreds of degrees of heated hydraulic > > fluid away from ones privates. Of course this is a worse case scenario, > > I just choose to not be any where near that worse case and keep my > > privates! > > I am not so sure that any crash seriously enough to cut a hose in > that proximity, would have kept you alive otherwise....;)) > > Also: the chance of ending up against a tree or oncoming traffic is > quite a bit higher *without* power steering....this isn't a simple > yes/no risk-analysis....;)) Look, I by no means, am looking to simulate or facilitate or engage you in a complete "crash analysis" and overall safety systems design and evaluation. Nor do I believe it is a binary go/no-go risk analysis (I previously stated it is "not trivial"). I felt it prudent that there be some exposure and awareness to well established engineering SAFETY standards and design guidelines by an organization (Society of Automotive Engineers SAE) that I suspect knows a tad bit more about automotive hydraulics than most of us. Again, I reiterate my point from experience that PS in a C3-Series is a challenging endeavor; it does involve many variables (safety is just one) that do not necessarily easily mold into a simple "one size fits all, been there done it, power steering template". Use the information as you choose. There are many solutions to the problem, it just seemed that a little safety education could be helpful. Good Luck with your power steering on "your Volvo"?? !! To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gr=F8nntass?= Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 11:30:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Re: Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com Quoting David Touitou : > There's plenty of space left but as I burnt myself only a couple of > time (touching the thing) it is not that urgent to fix it. > I'm not sure it will like to run with heat insulation anyway. How about mounting a adequate bent plate around it to avoid direct contact? If it's 1cm air between, the plate should not become to warm. If neccessary, you can put on some softer isolation afterwards. I've some 2mm x 5cm foam rubber band for isolation of water-tubes. I's fine for a lot of things, like this. Christian To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "John Utteridge" Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 13:48:04 -0000 Subject: [Volvo303] Re: Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com --- In Volvo303@yahoogroups.com, Gr=F8nntass wrote: > Quoting David Touitou : > > There's plenty of space left but as I burnt myself only a couple of > > time (touching the thing) it is not that urgent to fix it. > > I'm not sure it will like to run with heat insulation anyway. > > How about mounting a adequate bent plate around it to avoid direct contact? > If it's 1cm air between, the plate should not become to warm. > > If neccessary, you can put on some softer isolation afterwards. > I've some 2mm x 5cm foam rubber band for isolation of water-tubes. > I's fine for a lot of things, like this. > > Christian What about mounting the box further down the shaft, seems silly to have it so close to the driver and his privates ;) John To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 16:12:47 +0200 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Re: Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 9 Sep 2005 at 13:48, John Utteridge wrote: > What about mounting the box further down the shaft, seems silly to > have it so close to the driver and his privates ;) Hmm....counter-argument: It would require longer (& exposed) hydraulic hoses.... (OTOH, you *could* run those straight front-back, at half height) Hmmm....on second thought: the darn thing *must* be mounted on a solid surface, otherwise it can't transfer it's torque.... So either a bracket on the rear, straight forward to the body (lots of stuff in the way probably), or further down on the floor. -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 16:19:22 +0200 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Re: Power Steering & French C303 galleries.... Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 9 Sep 2005 at 16:12, Willem-Jan Markerink wrote: > On 9 Sep 2005 at 13:48, John Utteridge wrote: > > > What about mounting the box further down the shaft, seems silly to > > have it so close to the driver and his privates ;) > > Hmm....counter-argument: > It would require longer (& exposed) hydraulic hoses.... > (OTOH, you *could* run those straight front-back, at half height) > > Hmmm....on second thought: the darn thing *must* be mounted on a > solid surface, otherwise it can't transfer it's torque.... > So either a bracket on the rear, straight forward to the body (lots > of stuff in the way probably), or further down on the floor. Which would of course conflict with foot/pedal interaction.... (and any bracket halfway would have to be something triangular, or in two different directions/angles, otherwise it can't transfer much torque either) Nah, dash-mounted seems quite smart, considering the alternatives.... Willem (I'd rather spend my energy finding a (more?) collapsible steering wheel) Jan -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] http://www.c303.de/c303-forum/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=7109 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Hi all, Some info: 1. Servo pump mountings are my own design but manufactured by local mechanical workshop 2. TAD150 servo mounting is totally done by KF (see below) 3. Steering wheel adapter is my own design but manufactured by local mechanical workshop My friend Kalle Fransson is the original inventor of the TAD-servo conversion for the C303 and has done a lot of conversions for Vattenfall and others. Kalle has worked with the C303 for a looooong time (why don´t you ask him when he started?) and is very skilled with the C303. He knows this beauty inside-out. So, if you have any questions regarding the TAD-servo conversion please don't hesitate to contact him. I have already warned him :-). If enough people is interested he maybe he can consider making conversion kits! Please discuss direct with him. I will also be happy to answer any questions regarding C303. I will try to answer any questions you have. You can reach Kalle Franssom on his cell phone: (please contact Ingvar to get the number) /Ingvar mail from Ingvar Karlsson: mb753831(at)bahnhofbredband.se xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://www.tatanka.nu/Includes/Common/DisplayNews.asp?ID=14 http://www.ytmag.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=jd&th=134692 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Topic: 1010 power steering Author Tony Miller 06-04-2004 18:46:00 64.7.173.137 134692 I purchased a 1010 with live PTO nearly two years ago primarily to pull a 6 ft finish mower. The tractor works very well for the task, but the lack of power steering was killing my arms. I recently retrofitted an aftermarket system consiting of a torque amplifier from Danfoss and a proportional flow divider from Prince. The installation looks almost factory, and is a very tight fit but works great. With the flow divider I have sacrificed a little speed at the 3 point, but the trade off is well worth it. Total cost in components is under $500, and the modifications would be easy to do now after being through it once. If anyone is looking to add power steering to a 1010, I'm willing to offer help if I can. Author Loren NC 06-05-2004 04:27:03 206.228.212.87 134711 Re: 1010 power steering in reply to Tony Miller, 06-04-2004 18:46:00 I have a 1010 without power steering and have thought some about adding it. My concern was that I would lose too much power, since the tractor isn't over-powered anyway. Where did you find the components for yours? I presume not at J-D. I have a shoulder that is susceptible to bursitis and which would sure appreciate some relief! Author Tony Miller 06-05-2004 06:22:08 64.7.174.183 134716 Okay, in detail. www.sauer-danfoss.com Select Literature on the left Expand the Steering category and Select Open/Closed Center Steering Units Download the PDF and look for the TAD (Torque Amplifier Units) I used the TAD100 unit. I was able to locate a distributor through their website as well. When you order the unit, ask for the weldable spline stub that connects to the input of the unit. You will also need a 7/8" diameter solid shaft coupling with a 3/16 keyway that is under 1.5" in diameter. McMaster-Carr or Reid Tool Supply should have these. You will also need an RD550P proportional divider that you can order directly from Prince Hydraulics. www.princehyd.com Dissasemble the hood and side panels on the tractor. Remove the air filter. Loosen the rear spline connector in the steering shaft, and slide it all onto one side. Loosen the front spline connector clamp bolt as well. Remove the four bolts holding on the gas tank. Lift the rear of the tank and slide out the steering shaft. Remove the steering wheel. Remove the four bolts holding the steering cloumn in place. By tipping the column, you can slide the shaft with the U-joint out of the column without having to disassemble the throttle linkage. It may be helpful to remove the four screws holding the dash panel on. Cut the splined stub shaft attached to the U-joint off almost flush with the U-joint (the one that connects to the steering shaft through the tank, not the one the steering wheel goes on). Leave enough (1/16") so you can find the center of the U-joint. Then you have to drill or bore a hole in the U-joint on center with the shaft that you can press the stub spline you get from Danfoss into. After you press in the spline, weld it in place. This shortens things as much as possible. Now you can put the steering column shaft and U-joint back in place and the steering wheel back on, and bolt the column back in place temporarily. Put the TAD 100 unit in place, engage the spline, and hold it in alignment. It may be necessariy to remove the tachometer cable from the tachometer. Measure from the end of the output shaft of the TAD unit to the edge of the hole in the gas tank bracket, and write down the dimension. Remove the TAD unit and slide the steering shaft back through the gas tank and engage it with the steering gearbox. Measure from the gas tank bracket back the same dimension and mark the steering shaft so you can cut it off, but when you cut it, cut off an extra 1/16-1/8" for clearance. The steering shaft is 7/8" diameter like the TAD output shaft. You may want to double check that everything fits so far before the next step. Slide the 7/8" shaft coupler half way onto the steering shaft, and weld it in place. You may have to sand some paint to get it to go on. Now you should be able to put everything back in place (steering shaft, steering column, and TAD unit) and layout the torque reaction bracket needed to mount the TAD unit. The assembly is a little difficult now. Remove the steering column bolts. Slide the steering shaft in from the rear of the tank and engage the steering gearbox. Put the TAD unit in place and slide the output shaft into the shaft coupling. Then slide the loose steering column in place, engaging the splines, and bolt it down. Now you need to take some measurments for a angle bracket to mount the TAD unit to the framework that holds the steering column and dash in place. I made one out of 10ga sheet metal that I bent into a angle. One leg of the angle bolts to the TAD unit according to it's mounting dimensions, and the other leg of the angle bolts to the same plate that the steering column bolts to. It works okay, but really needs a gusset welded in the center to be more rigid. A solid block that you could tap the edge of for the tractor mounting would be better, but take more machining. After the bracket is made, you can put the steering shaft and column all back together. Remeber the last step is sliding the spline on the steering column U-joint into the TAD unit, and bolting the column down. It won't assemble any other way. You can now put your air clearner back on, but you will have to do a slight modification to the top edge with a ball been hammer to get it to clear the TAD unit. Just make a little indentation in the corner as needed. It does not show with the hood back on. Whew! Now to the hydraulics. The RD550P proportional divider can be screwed into the top of the pump with a 1/2" npt hydraulic nipple. From there you get two adjustable output flowrates. Conect the Touch-O-Matic pressure line to one, and run a hydraulic hose from the other to the pressure side of the TAD unit. From the Tank side of the TAD, I was able to run a line back to one of the drain plugs on the Touch-O-Matic housing (resevoir). I know some of my tratctor's fittings where not factory orginal, so you'll have to figure out exactly what fittings you'll need. You can adjust the proportion between the flowrates so that you get the best compromise in lift speed and steering speed. With more work, a larger pump could be added. Now that I have your head spinning, don't worry about loss of power. The system requires 1015psi at about 2.6 GPM. That equates to less than 2 horsepower at worst. I'm surprised you say the 1010 is underpowered. I have no complaints for power on mine, but I have a fresh engine. It'll pull the 6ft finish mower in third gear through 8" tall grass, no problem. Hope this helps! xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx TAD100 and TAD160(!): http://www.sauer-danfoss.de/pdf/produkte/Lenkungen/520L0502_Steering%20Units%20and%20Torque%20Amplifiers_TI.pdf xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Code number Weight Type European version US version kg G 1/2 3/4-16 UNF [lb] TAD 100 150B0032 150B0012 6.2 [13.67] TAD 160 150B0034 150B0014 6.5 [14.33] Torque amplifier TAD 100 TAD 160 Displacement cm3/rev 100 160 in3/rev [6.10] [9.76] Input torque * Nm approx. 3 approx. 3 lbf·in [26.55] [26.55] Max. input torque cont. Nm 20 20 lbf·in [177.02] [177.02] peak Nm 200 200 lbf·in [1770.15] [1770.15] Hydraulic output torque at 70 bar [1015 psi] Nm 80 120 lbf·in [708.06] [1062.09] Max. operating pressure bar 70 70 psi [1015] [1015] Max. return pressure bar 2 2 psi [29] [29] Recommended oil flow Q l/min 10 16 US gal/min [2.64] [4.23] Max. speed at Q r/min 100 100 Pressure drop in neutral position at Q and viscosity 21 mm2/s [100 SUS] bar 0.9 1.4 psi [13] [20] Pressure relief valve setting bar 70 70 psi [1015] [1015] * This torque is of course considerably higher if the oil flow is insufficient or fails completely. The output shaft must be capable of handling the torque (manual input torque + hydraulic output torque). The data given here comes from measurements on a representative sample of torque amplifiers from production. Oil with a viscosity of 21 mm2/s [100 SUS] at 50°C [122°F] was used. The pressure relief valve protects the pump and the torque amplifier against excessive pressure. The pressure relief valve in the torque amplifier limits the maximum pressure drop from P to T. The pressure relief valve is set at 25 l/min [6.60 US gal/min]. A: 70 +5 bar [1015 +73 psi]. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://forum.terrangbil.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=1764&PID=41631 http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/volvo/ http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/volvo/Powersteering_vattenfall/ = http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/volvo/PICs%20I_Karlsson_Power%20steering/ http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/volvo/PICs%20I_Karlsson_Power%20steering/Servo_pump_1.jpg/full xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Hydraulic pump: Vickers VTM2750 4512 NOR110 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/volvo/Powersteering_cylinder/ http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/volvo/Powersteering_G30/ http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=vickers+VTM27 Char-Lynn 'Torque Generator', similar as Danfoss TAD100/160? http://www.eatonhydraulics.com/products/steer_main.htm xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Series 217/Gerotor and 227/Geroler, each in 3 versions: 217 Series Geroter Unit Displacement Output Torque Recommended Flow Max. Operating Speed cm3/r [ in3/rev] nm [lbf-in] lpm [gpm] (no specification given, presumably also rev/min, just like the above Danfoss table?) at 70 bar [1000 psi] at 70 bar [1000 psi] 76 [4.7] 62 [550] 11,4 [3] 125 96 [5.9] 79 [700] 12,2 [3.5] 118 160 [9.7] 124 [1100] 13,69 [5] 102 227 Series Geroler® Unit Displacement Output Torque Recommended Flow Max. Operating Speed cm3/r [ in3/rev] nm [lbf-in] lpm [gpm] (at 70 bar [1000 psi] at 70 bar [1000 psi] 80 [4.9] 69 [608] 11,7 [3.1] 125 102 [6.2] 86 [760] 15,1 [4] 118 160 [9.7] 131 [1160] 18,9 [5] 102 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Historical notes, according to Sauer-Danfoss Netherlands: - at least since 1973/1978, until 1980 (takeover by Eaton?), there also were two models Charlynn(?) power amplifiers, with an almost similar displacement of 101 & 107cc/rev (possible differences due to inch/metric conversion), model codes S101F and S102F. - at least since 1985, both TAD100 and TAD160 exist in the Danfoss program Vickers VTM27/28/42 parts manual: http://www.eatonhydraulics.com/products/pdfs/m2052s.pdf Char-Lynn Torque Generator: http://www.vickershydraulics.ru/pages/hydraulics/steering/pdf/11-872.pdf xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Originally posted by eile >> Varför inte köra med helium i däcken då slipper ni ju röra till allt tänkande om hur mycket >> flöde servopumpar klarar, öppna en snäcka och se hur lite utrymme det finns, vanliga >> servopumpar avsedda för styrservon klarar fylla och trycksätta detta utrymme. >> >> Själv kör jag alltid med minst 2,5 kg i michelinarna och då räcker det till och med med ett >> finger att styra t.ex tummen mitt i handen. >> >> När jag hoppa med lowrider tog jag pumparna från citroen id19 de hade de bästa pumparna en >> liten kolvpump med drifttryck på 180-200 bar, gamelcitrorna driver allt med denna lilla >> pump hydraliken, servon och bromsarna. >> >> > Flow (liter pro minute) is more important than pressure, since the Danfoss has a > relief-valve with a 70 bar setting....so anything above that is useless....and more flow > means that the booster doesn't run 'out of steam', if you turn very quickly.... > (more flow also means that one can mount the stronger Danfoss model (TAD 160 instead of TAD > 100), since it requires a flow of 16L/min, instead of 10L/min) > > More data on the bottom of this document: > > http://www.markerink.org/WJM/HTML/volvo_power-steering.txt > > Still haven't been able to find the exact data for the Vickers pump (at least not by the > ID-tag that is shown on one of the online pictures), but I do have the impression/experience > that these *do* run out of steam, when turning fast....so even with the TAD100 I would search > more for extra flow than for extra pressure. > > Btw, the largest model from Char-Lynn gives even slightly more boost than the TAD160 (131Nm > instead of 120 (TAD100 is 80Nm (and runs out of steam, powerwise, when turning Goodyears on > grippy pavement, in a (front)heavy C306)). From what I have found the trucks with TAD either had a VTM42-40-30-10 pump or the VTM27-50-45-12. The first pumps has a 4gpm ring and give 70bar and 11l/min and the second one has a 5gpm ring and give 86bar and 17l/m. You can turn the steering wheel really fast with the 17l/m pump supplying the TAD 100. You can change the flow by enlarging the orifice hole in the outlet of the pump. The flow control valve will cut in later if you enlarge the hole, basically moving the orifice break off line further up on the pump delivery line in the diagram below. If you change the cartridge kit (or just the ring if you go from 5gpm to 6gpm) you will get more flow before the flow control> http://forum.terrangbil.net/uploads/412/vtm42_flow.JPG xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Electric Powersteering conversion on Volvo TGB13xx, using factory electric powersteering from an Opel/Vauxhall Corsa: (NB: Opel/Vauxhall Astra has electro-hydraulic power steering, Citroen C3 electric as well) xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://forum.terrangbil.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=3556&PN=6&title=terrncamper (and next pages!) xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [note WJ] Electrical specifications for this Corsa-B unit: sensor fused with 10A (12v), booster 50A (12v). [note WJ] xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Power formula's for hydraulic powersteering: kW = l/min x bar / 600 HP = gpm x psi / 1714 Danfoss TAD100: kW = 10 x 70 / 600 = 1.167kW HP = 2.64 x 1015 / 1714 = 1.563HP Danfoss TAD160: kW = 16 x 70 / 600 = 1.867kW HP = 4.23 x 1015 / 1714 = 2.505HP xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://forum.terrangbil.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=5250&PID=60992 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Fredrik L Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Location: Göteborg Location: Gothenburg Online Status: Offline Online Status: Offline Posted: 16/10/2009 at 11:49 Elservo är visserligen enklare och billigare att montera men du får bara halva funktionen, den tar inte bort hugg och slag. Elservo is certainly easier and cheaper to install but you get only half the function, it does not take away blows. Sen är det upp till var och en att fundera på vilket användningsområde man har. Then it's up to everyone to reflect on what field you have. För min del som använder bilen i skogen och har feta ostar var elservo aldrig något alternativ. For my part, using the car in the woods and feta cheese elservo was never an option. 131C under förädling 131c during the processing 131C Reservdelsbil 131c Reservdelsbil 1314 Reservdelsbil 1314 Reservdelsbil xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://forum.terrangbil.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=4706 http://forum.terrangbil.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=4964 http://forum.terrangbil.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=2487 http://forum.terrangbil.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=5250 http://forum.terrangbil.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=4999 http://www.4x4sweden.se/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16154