To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 14:12:42 +0200 Subject: [Volvo303] Spring eye bushings? (was: King Pin Bearing conversion kit Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 9 Apr 2008 at 13:42, rdoveryhoo wrote: > OK chaps, the final prices of the parts are in and it's good news! > > I have ordered 20 cup/spacer sets and complete bearings (top quality > ones!) and everything will be in stock in about 2 weeks. The complete > kit to convert 1 axle will cost =A359.99 including vat (=A351.06 for non > EU purchasers) but excluding delivery but as a guide Airmail to the > USA will be about =A310. > > I've had mine fitted already and apart from the difficulty removing > the old top bearing shell it was a very easy job. > > I will be putting photos and details in the shop very soon and will > let everyone know when they are available to order. > > I am also working on replacements for the stub axle shaft inner and > outer oil seals which are now not available from Volvo and an idea of > popularity will help me calculate a price. > > Richard > www.difflock.com > www.volvoc303.co.uk Hi Richard, Since you seem to be in close contact with those Ladoga-fanatics and their high 'turn-over' experiences in the maintenance department: Have they ever mentioned to you if and how they replace their spring eye bushings? They are still in stock, AFAIK (the springs themselves can even be had new, done that myself with the HD 9-leaf unit (meant for the C304/4x4/pickup rear, but mounted it on the front axle myself). (and within 15k km, I wore the spring eye rubbers out completely (with only about 5k km really bad 'road'....:)) (bad enough to rattle 2 rear shock-brackets apart within 1 day/250km....:)) 2-4 years ago, I was hoping Parabolic Suspensions in the Netherlands would take up this challenge as well, but it turned out that their initial 0-series batch had spring eyes that were made to Land Cruiser specification....any Volvo compatibility would only follow with a larger production scale (just to avoid the need to produce 'custom' PU-bushings and shackle hardware). (haven't heard much from these guys recently....anyone on the list know whether they ever produced a second batch, or even larger scale production?) (I believe at least one set ended up in Finland (Teppo, or a friend of yours?), and Claes ordered one too) Thanx for any info or reference/pointer/lead!....:)) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand=20 is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: Teppo Rapo Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 00:11:47 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Spring eye bushings? (was: King Pin Bearing conversion kit Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com > (I believe at least one set ended up in Finland (Teppo, or a friend > of yours?), and Claes ordered one too) > > Thanx for any info or reference/pointer/lead!....:)) I might have told this to you earlier already but here we go again about parabolics. I got one set for my 303 yes, I still have few PU bushes as you can not install all of them, upper connetion to frame is different in size, PU bushes are much bigger than original rubber onces and have not steel bushing. http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/Parabolic+-+C303/shackle_upper_joint.JPG/full Then we came a cross for a another problem, as there were not steel bushing, you could over tighten shackle bolts, they needed to remain very loose, only sholder of PU bushing holding them, that also unstabilized the front axle connection to frame. You should have a bit different type of shackles, ones tha can be tihgtened all teh way without sping in between at all. Then due to same reason we installed grease nibbles to bolts. Then the center pin, bolt in this case did not fit into axle, needed to work a bit on it and rebuild the spring with bolt upside down (on front end) minor issue though.. Then the end of spring was bigger as well and springs could not be installed properly without modification of front end of the frame for front springs. We needed to open up the "boxed" connetion point. http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/Parabolic+-+C303/ontheground_ahkiomaa3.JPG/full http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/Parabolic+-+C303/one_installed02.JPG/full U-bolts was to be modified as well, we did a bushing into them as they were too long for parabolic setup. http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/Parabolic+-+C303/toolong_u-bolts_cure1.JPG/full About the springs, they were not that good, first of all car lowered heavilly instad of 1-2 rise that was promised, in front due to fact that they were too weak and not curved enough, at there rear car lowered cause spring-pack was not as thick as originals and not curved enough. After few kilometer front springs was deformed heavilly and front axle did not stay in the position while driving causing quite a dangerous situations due to bumb-steering when axle travels around. After 300 kilometers on and off-road springs were all dead, bent and car was standing on bumb stops. Before that it was leaning to left heavilly. This what happened already after few kilometers http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/Parabolic+-+C303/somethings_not_right_001.JPG/full I would strongly recomend, do not to instal these into you car with out: 3rd leaf AND traction bar or similar to ensure support of front axle, then upgrading of shocks is strongly remonended as well by my experience to stabilize the car a bit. Travel of suspension was far better than with originals and comfort was exellent! http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/Parabolic+-+C303/ramp_parabolic03.JPG All tyre noise and vibration was gone! My C03 is much, much heavier that 303 was and even with 3 leafs I'm convinced that they can not hold the weight. Though, I really would like to see proper parabolic solution for volvos and would like to get them! Teppo Rapo +358 40 5508394 Ahkiomaantie 7 FIN-96300 Rovaniemi To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:29:26 +0200 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Re: Spring eye bushings? (was: King Pin Bearing conversion kit Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 12 Apr 2008 at 9:48, rdoveryhoo wrote: > Willem > The Ladoga Lunatics don't use the volvo springs normally, just the > axles. Ah, okay, shame, no further use for us.... Reminds me of my pet-peeve that it is much better to preserve entire Volvo's, trying to avoid axle-cannibalisation....since the latter will only result in axle-specific aftermarket....;)) (but if they are as crucial as those Kingping-bearings, it is okay of course....but only one team of lunatics is sufficient to get production going....;)) > Last time I checked with Volvo all the bushes were available and not > very expensive. I've not looked at replacing mine .... yet My line of reasoning wasn't about availability/expense[*], but the sheer dissapointment of wearing them down in less than 5k of very bad roads....it gotta be more beefy than that....8-)) (okay, roads that even rattled a Citroen 2CV and DS nearly to pieces, but still....;)) Hence the first thought is: PU....but then you instantly have a demand/search for greasable bolts/shackles too, since PU needs lubrication to avoid squeeking in the long run (if squeeking didn't stand for unnecessary wear, it would be a mooth point on our Volvo's, otherwise clunking and rattling, especially the 6x6's, of course....;)) [*] at least not now; not quite sure about the current status either, in the context that the springs themselves seem still in production (at least I was told that when I ordered my 9-leaf set)....and these new springs are factory fitted with rubber bushings. (reminds me that only my spring-side bushings were new, not the shackle/frame-side one) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:29:26 +0200 Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Spring eye bushings? (was: King Pin Bearing conversion kit Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 12 Apr 2008 at 0:11, Teppo Rapo wrote: > > (I believe at least one set ended up in Finland (Teppo, or a friend > > of yours?), and Claes ordered one too) > > > > Thanx for any info or reference/pointer/lead!....:)) > > I might have told this to you earlier already but here we go again > about parabolics. Sorry, no, I never saw this full report....neither private nor on the list....;)) > I got one set for my 303 yes, I still have few PU bushes as you can > not install all of them, upper connetion to frame is different in > size, PU bushes are much bigger than original rubber onces and have > not steel bushing. > http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/Parabolic+-+C303/shackle_upper_joint.JPG/ > full > > Then we came a cross for a another problem, as there were not steel > bushing, you could over tighten shackle bolts, they needed to remain > very loose, only sholder of PU bushing holding them, that also > unstabilized the front axle connection to frame. You should have a bit > different type of shackles, ones tha can be tihgtened all teh way > without sping in between at all. > > Then due to same reason we installed grease nibbles to bolts. Then the > center pin, bolt in this case did not fit into axle, needed to work a > bit on it and rebuild the spring with bolt upside down (on front end) > minor issue though.. > > Then the end of spring was bigger as well and springs could not be > installed properly without modification of front end of the frame for > front springs. We needed to open up the "boxed" connetion point. > http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/Parabolic+-+C303/ontheground_ahkiomaa3.JP > G/full > http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/Parabolic+-+C303/one_installed02.JPG/full > > U-bolts was to be modified as well, we did a bushing into them as they > were too long for parabolic setup. > http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/Parabolic+-+C303/toolong_u-bolts_cure1.JP > G/full > > About the springs, they were not that good, first of all car lowered > heavilly instad of 1-2 rise that was promised, in front due to fact > that they were too weak and not curved enough, at there rear car > lowered cause spring-pack was not as thick as originals and not curved > enough. > > After few kilometer front springs was deformed heavilly and front axle > did not stay in the position while driving causing quite a dangerous > situations due to bumb-steering when axle travels around. After 300 > kilometers on and off-road springs were all dead, bent and car was > standing on bumb stops. Before that it was leaning to left heavilly. > This what happened already after few kilometers > http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/Parabolic+-+C303/somethings_not_right_001 > .JPG/full > > I would strongly recomend, do not to instal these into you car with > out: 3rd leaf AND traction bar or similar to ensure support of front > axle, then upgrading of shocks is strongly remonended as well by my > experience to stabilize the car a bit. > > Travel of suspension was far better than with originals and comfort > was exellent! > http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/Parabolic+-+C303/ramp_parabolic03.JPG All > tyre noise and vibration was gone! Hmm....but could that be caused by the 'non-steel' bushing configuration....resulting in too *much* flex as well, in particular sideways? Mind you, the original rubber is supposed to be more flexible/comfortable/vibration-damping than most types of PU, so that would have been at least some of my reservations. (but there are several qualities/densities of PU too....the problem is finding a wide range, which you will only find with the highest mass produced aftermarket (like Jeeps; not even Land Cruisers). > My C03 is much, much heavier that > 303 was and even with 3 leafs I'm convinced that they can not hold the > weight. Though, I really would like to see proper parabolic solution > for volvos and would like to get them! Interesting report, thanx....glad I did not play the guinnee pig myself, as I initially intended, for the rally, as an alternative to the 9-leaf set that I mounted in the end. Btw, what kind of feedback did you provide to Paul at Parabolic Springs, and what was his reply? I can't believe even his first batch would be so inadequate....although he thought I was a fool for wanting not just 3, but even *4* leaves, for the front of my C306 (with the weight & leverage of the front winch, and pending a possible further roofrack/rooftent up front (50-100kg), plus 2x 125L belly tanks. So for me your report is even more valid, in justifying my strong opinion about having 4 leaves. Thanx again, very valuable info, also in my further contacts with Paul....he won't win me over for a 3-leaf setup now, that's for sure. (I don't really understand this result either; his heaviest TLC setup, J7-series, is rated at 6500kg total weight (mathematically, calculated from the same +/- 7cm of spring travel as stock, measured between axle and bumpstop). (so, if did use not only TLC-compatible spring eyes, but also the spring(size) itself, then he should easily have achieved 3500-4000kg, twice of what is needed for the Volvo) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: Teppo Rapo Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 19:30:24 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Re: [Volvo303] Spring eye bushings? (was: King Pin Bearing conversion kit Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com > > Sorry, no, I never saw this full report....neither private nor on the > list....;)) I'm not sure if I never did this before, I was having second thoughts cause I got spring in *very* discouted price that I felt a bit bad to have only negative feed back. > Hmm....but could that be caused by the 'non-steel' bushing > configuration....resulting in too *much* flex as well, in particular > sideways? > Mind you, the original rubber is supposed to be more > flexible/comfortable/vibration-damping than most types of PU, so that > would have been at least some of my reservations. > (but there are several qualities/densities of PU too....the problem > is finding a wide range, which you will only find with the highest > mass produced aftermarket (like Jeeps; not even Land Cruisers). These PU bushes are much larger in size and very soft compared to originals. As it feel when hanlding those bushees, the non-bushing configuration + soft large Pu bushing is the only way to ensure proper articulation of axle as you can understand that it needs to placed to flex, otherwise it will not work. > Interesting report, thanx....glad I did not play the guinnee pig > myself, as I initially intended, for the rally, as an alternative to > the 9-leaf set that I mounted in the end. Your very wellcome > Btw, what kind of feedback did you provide to Paul at Parabolic > Springs, and what was his reply? I did comprehensive report with *all*, even smallest modification that was needed for isntallation and we did test the system thoroughly and I suppolied all specs, measurements for lift, or lowering in this case + all measurements how ramp test was improved. He replied me that they will supply me for a full round with 3rd leafs but I never received them and I would not been able to install them anyways as 2 leaf springs was totally messed up. You should have seen them in the end. Next they would start to brake something. I think that Paul just want's to forget about me and this project.... I gathered quite a buch of material as I was supposed to write story about this to local 4x4 magazine but I assumed that this was not wanted anymore.... BTW, spring in rear axle performed quite ok without extra load inside. > I can't believe even his first batch would be so > inadequate....although he thought I was a fool for wanting not just > 3, but even *4* leaves, for the front of my C306 (with the weight & > leverage of the front winch, and pending a possible further > roofrack/rooftent up front (50-100kg), plus 2x 125L belly tanks. > So for me your report is even more valid, in justifying my strong > opinion about having 4 leaves. I think that now we were having engineering problem here, adding leaf's would help of course but I would douple the thickness of the material all the way and add least one more leaf or something similar. Still, the traction bar is mandatory IMHO. > Thanx again, very valuable info, also in my further contacts with > Paul....he won't win me over for a 3-leaf setup now, that's for sure. > (I don't really understand this result either; his heaviest TLC > setup, J7-series, is rated at 6500kg total weight (mathematically, > calculated from the same +/- 7cm of spring travel as stock, measured > between axle and bumpstop). > (so, if did use not only TLC-compatible spring eyes, but also the > spring(size) itself, then he should easily have achieved 3500-4000kg, > twice of what is needed for the Volvo) That's what I was wondering as well, I can understand if they have done these to even lot heavier engines and this time failed, big time. If there will be the solution that can stand C03 very heavy front end, I will strongly consider to purchase them. Teppo Rapo +358 40 5508394 Ahkiomaantie 7 FIN-96300 Rovaniemi http://www.c303.de/c303-forum/index.php?board=14;action=display;threadid=8493 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx liher Ich liebe dieses Forum! Re:Rear sets of springs « Antwort #15 am: Heute um 11:14:33 » Antwort mit Zitat Hello, This is what Paul answered: > Hi Liher, > After some re-calculation and design I came up with a 3 leaf spring, > see attached drawing. It is based on the 2 leaf I made before > so it's not a totally new spring. The tests I did with the 2 leaf can > be transferred to this 3 leaf. > These (3 leaf) springs will put the vehicle at 110 mm front and 113 mm > measured between the buffer seat and the buffer. I calculated the > maximum spring deflection to be 50% into the buffer. The 3 leaf set-up > is rather over dimensioned but it will surely > be well protected against the forces off-road because the stress levels > are very low. Please note that I can't "lift" the vehicle endlessly, > you need to keep in mind that the steel has limitations. The design as > it is now has the maximum height and flexibility. > > I am planning a production run for 10 sets (of 4) which all need to be > pre-ordered to fund the production. So if you can gather C303 or C306 > owners who are interested in buying a set we could pull this off. The > prices will be around Eur 215,- per spring. For someone if is also interested... Regards http://forum.terrangbil.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=3489 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx W-J-M Joined: 01 Mar 2007 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Online Posts: 88 Post Options Post Options Better to post the URL-source, because there is more/older discussion in there too, plus updates/additions where possible, and the above URL's are also kept intact (though it's still just raw text, not clickeable HTML, sorry....;)) http://www.markerink.org/WJM/HTML/volvo_parabolic-suspensions.txt Willem (waiting for an answer on my question whether perhaps this time a 4-leaf version is possible....the front-axle load of a C306 exceeds 2000kg easily, after all the bells & whistles are added (2x 125L belly fueltank, front mounted winch, roll-cage, perhaps even a camper-overhead/alkove) Jan Btw, the 110-113mm specification quoted for these springs (see last addition in the above URL) seem to point at the free space between the rubber helper spring ('buffer seat' vs 'buffer spring')....that is definitely a significant gain over stock....*but*: it depends on which vehicle this was measured, cq the actual axle-load....an unloaded TGB11 is less than 1500kg up front.... (but alas, these springs are progressive, so they won't sag as much with load as regular springs) Edited by W-J-M - Today at 20:06 Those who wander are not necessarily lost J.R.R. Tolkien ...and not all who launder are washed/WJ....;)) [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] Hi Kjell, Thank you for your e-mail. That is a good start. The final price is not yet fixed because this depends on the spring maker and steel prices. The price I quoted is excluding VAT (19%) but if you have a VAT reg. that you can use it will be at 0% The shipping costs depend on the weight and location. A typical shipment for 200 to 300 Kg will be around Eur 150,- Regards Paul Joined: 13 Mar 2008 Location: Gotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 Post Options Post Options Quote Kilen Quote Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2008 at 18:01 Angående den 11:a som deltog i Karpata Trophy 2007 har jag fått reda på förarens namn men inte mycket mer. Jag har mailat trophy-arrangörerna och den österikiska 4X4-firma som utrustade bilen för att få förarens e-post men hittils utan att få svar. Syftet är att få hans utlåtande om de 3-bladiga fjädrar som byggdes specifikt för detta tillfälle. Angående de finska testerna, fotoalbum här: http://www.scout.1g.fi/kuvat/Parabolic+-+C303/, har jag bett Paul kommentera och hans svar ser ni nedan, läs och begrunda. Han nämner en tidigare leverans till Sverige, någon som vet vem han menar? Kjell ___________________________________________________________________________________ Hi Kjell, Thank you for your e-mail. I did a test fitting and no modifications where needed, meaning: if you take in account the the original springs are thicker which need to be compensated. The guy in Finland bough a set and never gave me any feedback, he also carried out the mods on the pics although they where not essential. Anyway, fitting different suspension is not the same as fitting a bog standard OE Volvo part, I hope all understand this, I can but try to make it easy to fit. Anyway, my idea of "bolt-on" is that you don't need to cut or weld to the vehicle to make them fit and that it is reversible. Failing of springs depends on the amount of abuse to put into them (1) and (2); I made calculations to which extend the spring will stress under extreme flex but the resistance to stress depends on the heat treatment and some other production stages so it is never exactly clear why a spring failed in the first place. They springs are made of steel, not of "unbrakelilium" or "unbendium" if you know what I mean. I discovered that spring failure and internet don't mix. The internet amplifies any given spring problem a 100 times especially when the product or concept is "new" like my springs. You see hardly any Old Man Emu spring failure in the internet because we all know they do at some point. If people are scared then they should not do it but I already know that you guys from the north "boldly go .." I sold also a 3 leaf set* to a Swedish guy who mounted them but never gave feedback. He claimed to be a Dakar veteran rallying it with a C303 or C306, I can't remember. He seems well known in the 4x4 scene. * I composed a 3 leaf set by adding a second leaf from on other set of springs, which can be done because my springs are modular. The sets I am planning this time are basically the same as these albeit that they are higher. Regards, Paul Joined: 13 Mar 2008 Location: Gotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 Post Options Post Options Quote Kilen Quote Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Today at 10:30 En liten uppdatering av läget ger följande: ett tag var vi uppe i drygt 20 fjädrar beställda men efter några avhopp är vi tillbaka till 16. Jag har ingen info om hur det går med det tyska spåret. Lite info från Gregor Lehner från http://www.kfz-lehner.at/ som monterat 3-bladiga fjädrar på Karpata-11:an: ______________________________________________________________________________ One question can be answered by myself. The 3-leaf springs are very hard and high. So it's a bit tricky to mount the rear ones, because the control arms allow only limited axle travel. On the Spring mounting points for the rear leafs is no modification necessary. For the front springs it is necessary to modify (cut) the front spring mount. Because the front skid plates is to close to the bolt. But this is also with the 2 leaf version Best regards Gregor Mit freundlichen Grüßen Gregor Lehner http://forum.terrangbil.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=3489&PID=59671#59671 xxxxxxxxxxxxx Kilen Joined: 13 Mar 2008 Location: Gotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 138 Post Options Post Options Med tanke på vad som står på Tatankas hemsida kanske det var lika bra att affären inte blev av för våran del: Parabolfjädrar Volvo C3 Angående Parabolfjädrarna till Volvo C3 serien så har dessa kommit , men tyvärr så har vi funnit att det är design och konstruktionsfel från vår leverantör, Vi jobbar på att lösa problemet så vi kan börja leverera, Claes Hellbom Box 61 44722 Vårgårda Tel: +46 322 620554 Mob: +46 708 254405 E-post: info@tatanka.nu ----------------------------------------- Given what is at Tatanka website maybe it was just as well that the deal did not go ahead on our part: Subject Parabolic springs for Volvo C3 series, but unfortunately so we have found that it is the design and construction errors from our supplier, we are working on the problem so we can start delivery. Vårgårda mekanteknik Claes Hellbom Box 61 44722 Vårgårda Tel: +46 322 620554 Mob: +46 708 254405 E-post: info@tatanka.nu xxxxxxxxxxxxx