Date sent: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 00:01:15 -0700 To: LandCruisers@tlca.org From: Rob Mullen Subject: It's 11pm: do you know what your t-case is doing? Send reply to: landcruisers@tlca.org Okay everybody, stop whatever you're doing, go out to the garage (or carport or alley or...) and spend a little quality time with your transfer case. I've seen some horrific things lately and have come to believe that very few people understand the concept of preventative transfer case maintenance. >>>>YES<<<< a rebuild is preventative maintenance. Waiting until the idler cluster comes punching through the housing is TOO LATE. I hope I'm preaching to the choir here, but if just one t-case is saved... For starters, the output flanges: Chaulk the wheels of your truck so it won't roll over your head. Then let the e-brake off and put the tranny in neutral. 1. Grab the front output flange and try to wiggle it up and down. Does it move? If yes, give yourself 10 points. 2. Now go the rear output flange or e-brake drum (depending on your case's vintage) Does it move up and down? If yes, give yourself 20 points. Now what? 0 points: To be a GOOD t-case owner, you should go to Step 3, although it's not absolutely essential. 10 points: Step 3 would be a very good idea 20 points: Go directly to Step 3. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. 30 points: You better collect a bunch more than $200 because your t-case is unhappy. 3. Drain the t-case oil, and look at the drain plug. Up to ~3/32" of fine metal powder on he plug is "normal" but any larger bits are BAD. Next, remove the PTO side cover (or PTO box if so equipped) Reach PAST the input (and PTO gear ISE) and try to wiggle the idler cluster gear up and down. If it moves, you get 100 points. 100+ points: Your t-case almost certainly requires a full rebuild. As soon as the idler shaft and bearings are worn to the point that the gear cluster can rock, you're getting irregular tooth meshing. Left long enough, it can lead to a weaker, noisier t-case even if you DO bring everything back to spec. Left long enough, you will wind up blowing teeth of your gears and potentially splitting the housing. Once you are aware of the condition of your t-case, you should monitor future progress by removing the PTO cover and attempting to wiggle the idler gear cluster every time you do an oil change. ____________________________________________________________________ Rob Mullen RAMullen@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C., Canada | TLC FAQ & TT Story Editor TLCA #3036, Coastal Cruisers | '80 Toyota BJ40/2 Land Cruiser Why walk?...When you can CRAWL!| Date sent: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:53:00 -0700 To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com From: Rob Mullen Subject: Re: [80] Transfer Lever Worry Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com At 07:25 AM 6/17/99 +1000, Norm Needham SUPPOSEDLY wrote: >Like GC says Mark, It is most likely wear. That does not mean it needs >immediate attention, except that it might be a bit embarrassing (or >scary) if it happens in the wrong spot. The imposter then added (proving that he DEFINITELY is NOT Norm): >Oops; forgot that one. There is a few old 80s out there that have used >the bungy cord trick for many kilometres with no apparent ill effects. ARRGH! Who are you and what the hell have you done with Norm? I can't believe that the real Norm would give such evil advice. BUNGY CORD?! Sorry Norm, you hit a nerve. I had to spend part of my day today explaining to a 40 owner that he could either pay to rebuild his t-case now, or leave it until teeth started to smash off the gears and then pay for a complete replacement t-case and housing AND gears. After that, I spent the remainder of my day fuming about how 99.9% of LC owners don't seem to understand that gear boxes need preventive maintenance, and mentally composing a rant to fire off the LCML about the joys of t-case inspection. Why so touchy? Well, a couple weeks back, a guy brought in his V8J40 complaining of a t-case noise and vibration. Sure there was vibration--he was missing 6 teeth from his high-range output gear! That's a "bite" nearly 5/8 deep out of the gear. He was just lucky that none of the exploding teeth had gotten wedged between the meshing gears (the usual cause of cracked pre-81 t-cases) There is no excuse for letting things get that far. If you're that mentally incompetent, you shouldn't be allowed to have a driver's license, never mind own a Cruiser. Here's my take part-time LC t-cases jumping out of gear. I must first admit that there is more 80 Series gearbox experience in that finger-nail Norm clipped this morning than in my whole body, but the gear box designs aren't THAT different. A lot of what I've got to say is applicable. There are two reasons (both usually happen simultaneously) why part time t-cases jump out of gear. Wear of the shift sleeve/fork, and more importantly, wear of the bearings/bushings (depending on vintage) that support the output gears. When the gears start to wobble, they'll kick the shift sleeve off. Once the output gears start wobbling, they put strange thrust forces into the idler gear cluster which will cause it to wobble too. Left long enough, the idler will make the input gear wobble (harder to do in an 80 t-case because of the "socketed" design) Now, why should you pay attention when your t-case starts jumping out of gear? Because that means that your gears are no longer meshing correctly. If they continue to mesh improperly, you won't have a proper pattern even when you replace the bearings. Furthermore, if the output gear (and the shift sleeve) are rocking on the main shaft, it'll chew the crap out of the splined hub. Not only will you be looking at replacing the bearings/bushings/seals/gaskets, you will also have to replace the shift sleeve, shift fork, AND main shaft ($$$!) Now, the ultimate t-case torture device: The bungy cord. What's wrong with the rubber serpent? Well, Toyota designed the t-cases with spring-loaded detent balls that precisely place the shift forks so that there is no significant force transmitted from the fork to the sleeve when you're not shifting. When you slap a bungy cord onto your shift lever, you are causing the fork to be constantly grinding up against the shift sleeve. GRINDING! GRINDING! GRINDING! ____________________________________________________________________ Rob Mullen RAMullen@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C., Canada | TLC FAQ & TT Story Editor TLCA #3036, Coastal Cruisers | '80 Toyota BJ40/2 Land Cruiser Why walk?...When you can CRAWL!| From: "Norm Needham" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80] Transfer Lever Worry Date sent: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 23:27:36 +1000 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com From: Rob Mullen >At 07:25 AM 6/17/99 +1000, Norm Needham SUPPOSEDLY wrote: >>Like GC says Mark, It is most likely wear. That does not mean it needs >>immediate attention, except that it might be a bit embarrassing (or >>scary) if it happens in the wrong spot. > >The imposter then added (proving that he DEFINITELY is NOT Norm): > >>Oops; forgot that one. There is a few old 80s out there that have used >>the bungy cord trick for many kilometres with no apparent ill effects. > >ARRGH! Who are you and what the hell have you done with Norm? > >I can't believe that the real Norm would give such evil advice. BUNGY CORD?! > >Sorry Norm, you hit a nerve. No need to apologise; you are more than half right. Oh; did I mention my medical condition. The other bloke can spell scitsophrenic. ;-) Please take into account the rest of my/his message re other possible causes. >I had to spend part of my day today >explaining to a 40 owner that he could either pay to rebuild his t-case >now, or leave it until teeth started to smash off the gears and then pay >for a complete replacement t-case and housing AND gears. Yes, but Mark's problem (from his description) is nowhere near that bad, and he drives an 80 series. >After that, I spent the remainder of my day fuming about how 99.9% of LC >owners don't seem to understand that gear boxes need preventive >maintenance, and mentally composing a rant to fire off the LCML about the >joys of t-case inspection. Why so touchy? Well, a couple weeks back, a >guy brought in his V8J40 complaining of a t-case noise and vibration. Sure >there was vibration--he was missing 6 teeth from his high-range output >gear! That's a "bite" nearly 5/8 deep out of the gear. He was just lucky >that none of the exploding teeth had gotten wedged between the meshing >gears (the usual cause of cracked pre-81 t-cases) There is no excuse for >letting things get that far. If you're that mentally incompetent, you >shouldn't be allowed to have a driver's license, never mind own a >Cruiser. Well...Mark's problem is DEFINATELY not that bad. I love 40s too, but repeat "Mark drives an 80 series". >Here's my take part-time LC t-cases jumping out of gear. I must first >admit that there is more 80 Series gearbox experience in that finger-nail >Norm clipped this morning than in my whole body, but the gear box designs >aren't THAT different. A lot of what I've got to say is applicable. But the 80 series transfer is a progressive development and inherently stronger/more reliable. >There are two reasons (both usually happen simultaneously) why part time >t-cases jump out of gear. Wear of the shift sleeve/fork, and more >importantly, wear of the bearings/bushings (depending on vintage) that >support the output gears. When the gears start to wobble, they'll kick the >shift sleeve off. > >Once the output gears start wobbling, they put strange thrust forces into >the idler gear cluster which will cause it to wobble too. Left long >enough, the idler will make the input gear wobble (harder to do in an 80 >t-case because of the "socketed" design) > >Now, why should you pay attention when your t-case starts jumping out of >gear? Because that means that your gears are no longer meshing correctly. There can be other reasons; as I said. >If they continue to mesh improperly, you won't have a proper pattern even >when you replace the bearings. Furthermore, if the output gear (and the >shift sleeve) are rocking on the main shaft, it'll chew the crap out of the >splined hub. Not only will you be looking at replacing the >bearings/bushings/seals/gaskets, you will also have to replace the shift >sleeve, shift fork, AND main shaft ($$$!) > >Now, the ultimate t-case torture device: The bungy cord. What's wrong >with the rubber serpent? Well, Toyota designed the t-cases with >spring-loaded detent balls that precisely place the shift forks so that >there is no significant force transmitted from the fork to the sleeve when >you're not shifting. When you slap a bungy cord onto your shift lever, you >are causing the fork to be constantly grinding up against the shift sleeve. > GRINDING! GRINDING! GRINDING! > Agreed; with older cases. The clutch sleeves and splines are MUCHO bigger in the 80. I have not looked closely, but I think the captive selector rod in the 80 might prevent the "rubber serpent" from making the selector fork grind on one side of the clutch sleeve. Getting late now, and bleedin' cold. Besides, Craig might be watching my log in times. ;-) You have the right of reply Rob (naturally). Healthy debate is GOOOOD! Cheers * Norm Needham * * Traction 4 / ARB Northside * Sydney, Australia * Trac4@bigpond.com Date sent: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 09:33:10 -0700 To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com From: Rob Mullen Subject: Re: [80] Transfer Lever Worry Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com At 11:27 PM 6/17/99 +1000, Norm Needham wrote: >...teeth started to smash off the gears and then >pay for a complete replacement t-case and housing AND gears. > >Yes, but Mark's problem (from his description) is nowhere near that >bad, and he drives an 80 series. In my book, the T-case needs SOME KIND of attention the FIRST time it pops out. If you can rule out shifter interference, you have to take a look at its guts. From his description, it popped out multiple times over the course of the week-end. If its constantly popping out, and if the shifter isn't an issue, chances are it has been popping out of gear for what, 5,000km for the previous owner... >But the 80 series transfer is a progressive development and inherently >stronger/more reliable. Absolutely true; however, I'd wager that the 1981-1990 "split-case" was MORE of a quantum leap above the pre-'81 case than the improvement from the split case to the 2.488 case. The latest case may last longer with a bungy cord by virtue of the fact that it has more material to grind away, but you're still doing damage. The earliest LC t-case had one important feature--it was overbuilt (esp. compared to the Spicer 18 of the time) It would go 10x as far as say a Rover gear box with the same degree of wear/mis-alignment. Now, as the years went by, Toyota improved on that original case design by leaps and bounds. You can go a remarkable distance on an '81-90 case with NO gear oil (I've seen it done...a couple times...hence my sensitivity to t-case issues) BUT virtually everything in the t-case gives its life so that the idiot operator gets home (and to the market and back a hundred times, and to work a hundred times, and eventually to the garage) Just because its strong enough to cope with a little abuse doesn't mean it should. Oh, you guys are still listening? I'll continue... >There can be other reasons; as I said. Yes, but your evil side also said it doesn't need immediate inspection. I say that the owner should inspect what they can on the side of the track as soon as it pops out. Then ASAFP they should get the truck to someone who can definitely determine what is wrong. >Agreed; with older cases. The clutch sleeves and splines are MUCHO >bigger in the 80. See above re: bigger allowing for longer operation in a gimped state. >I have not looked closely, but I think the captive >selector rod in the 80 might prevent the "rubber serpent" from making >the selector fork grind on one side of the clutch sleeve. Check that out for me, but I bet it doesn't. If the bungy exerts enough force on the shifter to prevent it from moving, it's a pretty sure bet that it's got the shifter is cranking the fork up against the sleeve something fierce. Actually, I have another question for you--have you EVER seen a detent spring in a LC t-case go bad? >Getting late now, and bleedin' cold. Besides, Craig might be watching >my log in times. ;-) Besides, you probably have a long day of fending off groupies at the 4WD show tomorrow. ____________________________________________________________________ Rob Mullen RAMullen@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C., Canada | TLC FAQ & TT Story Editor TLCA #3036, Coastal Cruisers | '80 Toyota BJ40/2 Land Cruiser Why walk?...When you can CRAWL!| From: "Norm Needham" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80] Transfer Lever Worry Date sent: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:46:52 +1000 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com From: Rob Mullen BIG SNIP >Actually, I have another question for you--have you EVER seen a detent >spring in a LC t-case go bad? OK....you win.....can't say that it I have seen more than one. ;-) >Besides, you probably have a long day of fending off groupies at the 4WD >show tomorrow. And the next day. ;-) Cheers * Norm Needham * * Traction 4 / ARB Northside * Sydney, Australia * Trac4@bigpond.com Date sent: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:26:38 -0700 To: Land Cruiser mailing list From: John Barron Subject: transfer cases again.... Send reply to: landcruisers@tlca.org Well Rob Mullen was right... ...got home to *three* phone calls from people looking for a 4 speed 'case (the tranny shop, the owner, and Toyota). Seems that 7 or 8 years between oil changes -ESPECIALLY- when there is a leak *and* water invloved is just too much for a 1978 LC 'case. Please go out and hug your transfer case today and see how it is feeling. You *need* to spend some quality time with it if you want it to get you to and from work during the week and up the trail to that awesome fishing hole on the weekends. *sigh* that's two 'cases in about as many weeks....and I live in a very small city... j. John Barron--Victoria, BC, Canada mailto:John_Barron@bc.sympatico.ca