Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 10:46:00 -0400 Subject: [DTLC] Double-cardan front shaft rebuild From: Michael Taylor To: Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net So, finally I have my hybrid Toyota 70-series front drive shaft with a double-cardan. It's a hybrid because I took a 60-series d-card, rebuilt it, and added it to a 70-series spline/yoke. I couldn't simply lengthen the 60 shaft for the 70 application b/c it's impossible to get metric tube here (and if I could get it, it would be impossible to get our one-and-only drive shaft shop to actually take it and use it) (read on). It only took 6 months, some research and a lot of arm-twisting to get it done. Here's the story: After my 3" spring lift, my front shaft started vibrating, at any speed and even simply with the hubs-locked-but-not-in-4wd. I had prepared a couple of years in advance for exactly this situation, where the lift made the front shaft vibrate, by saving a 60-series front shaft for its double cardan. I took it to the one-and-only drive shaft shop in the region who told me that it couldn't be done; the d-card couldn't be rebuilt. I checked at Toy, and, sure enough there are no replacement parts to be had there for the double cardan. A new shaft would cost $1100 (big frigging snicker and choking laugh here). I then asked about replacement components on this list and the guys out west didn't seem to see any problem to doing this rebuild. Greg Bowie managed to dig up part numbers for the ball and u-joints for the double-cardan unit. Thanks a million, Greg! I returned to the shop; the guys kind of looked at me sideways, took the parts and desired specs and called me back that same day saying the little post was too worn, couldn't be fixed. They said it couldn't be MIG'ed up and turned on a lathe. (At this point, winter was upon us and I wanted some 4WD... It didn't look like I was gonna get it locally and certainly not on time. So I bought a shaft from Tom Wood's out of Utah. Talking to those guys on the phone was like talking to drive-shaft heaven. Completely knowledeable (as expected) no whining about metric, Toyota or Mazda(?), used to requests from off-roaders, not afraid of modifications meant for heavy, unorthodox use (high angle). I had the shaft within a week. And cheaper and simpler than the Chevy shaft with 2 adaptors that our local shop recommended.) I still felt that my idea was possible, so I took the double-cardan yoke with the worn post to a machine shop down the road. They turned it and sleeved it. It just took 2 months to get the job done b/c they had lots of "big jobs". Understandable, and I was no longer rushed. I went back to the driveline shop last week. This time they really looked at me funny. I handed over the 2 bits of shaft, front 1/2 70-series, dble-card 1/2 60-series, with all new u-joints and new ball and rebuilt post, the tube was already cut to exactly the length required. All that needed to be done was welding, assembly and balancing, and he says, "we'll see what we can do". Two days ago, they call me, "the ball is too big, it won't fit". I ask, "how big"? And they reply, "one thou". I told them to clean up the cup/socket and that afternoon I got a call that the shaft was finished. It's exactly what I wanted in the first place. That's why I insisted and insisted with the shop. I knew it could be done b/c the guys out west told me it could. It became a point of honour. I wasn't going to let the shop off the hook. Don't get me wrong: they were polite and sympathetic with my situation, but clearly just didn't want to deal with this Toyota/metric thing. There were no arguments or insults and only charged me for the labour that went into the final assembly. So, from that point of view, they were great. And I will go back on good terms (no choice, anyways). I think my Wood's shaft is great, but this hybrid is Toyota and MY idea. I also found that the stock d-card gets a few more degrees than the modified Wood's. I think I'll put it on my truck and keep the Woody as a spare. So. For all you 60-owners out there, a front shaft rebuild is possible and not really that big a deal. I know where you can get it all welded and balanced.... -- Mike Taylor Proud Dad of Justine (4 1/2) and Jaxon (3) True North Toyota Land Cruisers Ottawa Valley, Canada LANDCRUISERS.CA TLCA #2300 '84 BJ42 '85 BJ70 (the Killer 3Bs) From: Bill Ritchie To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: [DTLC] Double-cardan front shaft rebuild Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 19:08:06 +0000 Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net > So, finally I have my hybrid Toyota 70-series front drive shaft with a > double-cardan. It's a hybrid because I took a 60-series d-card, rebuilt it, > and added it to a 70-series spline/yoke. > > I couldn't simply lengthen the 60 shaft for the 70 application b/c it's > impossible to get metric tube here (and if I could get it, it would be > impossible to get our one-and-only drive shaft shop to actually take it and > use it) (read on). > > It only took 6 months, some research and a lot of arm-twisting to get it > done. > > Here's the story: > > After my 3" spring lift, my front shaft started vibrating, at any speed and > even simply with the hubs-locked-but-not-in-4wd. I had prepared a couple of > years in advance for exactly this situation, where the lift made the front > shaft vibrate, by saving a 60-series front shaft for its double cardan. > > I took it to the one-and-only drive shaft shop in the region who told me > that it couldn't be done; the d-card couldn't be rebuilt. I checked at Toy, > and, sure enough there are no replacement parts to be had there for the > double cardan. A new shaft would cost $1100 (big frigging snicker and > choking laugh here). > > I then asked about replacement components on this list and the guys out west > didn't seem to see any problem to doing this rebuild. Greg Bowie managed to > dig up part numbers for the ball and u-joints for the double-cardan unit. > Thanks a million, Greg! > > I returned to the shop; the guys kind of looked at me sideways, took the > parts and desired specs and called me back that same day saying the little > post was too worn, couldn't be fixed. They said it couldn't be MIG'ed up and > turned on a lathe. > > (At this point, winter was upon us and I wanted some 4WD... It didn't look > like I was gonna get it locally and certainly not on time. So I bought a > shaft from Tom Wood's out of Utah. Talking to those guys on the phone was > like talking to drive-shaft heaven. Completely knowledeable (as expected) no > whining about metric, Toyota or Mazda(?), used to requests from off-roaders, > not afraid of modifications meant for heavy, unorthodox use (high angle). I > had the shaft within a week. And cheaper and simpler than the Chevy shaft > with 2 adaptors that our local shop recommended.) > > I still felt that my idea was possible, so I took the double-cardan yoke > with the worn post to a machine shop down the road. They turned it and > sleeved it. It just took 2 months to get the job done b/c they had lots of > "big jobs". Understandable, and I was no longer rushed. > > I went back to the driveline shop last week. This time they really looked at > me funny. I handed over the 2 bits of shaft, front 1/2 70-series, dble-card > 1/2 60-series, with all new u-joints and new ball and rebuilt post, the tube > was already cut to exactly the length required. All that needed to be done > was welding, assembly and balancing, and he says, "we'll see what we can > do". > > Two days ago, they call me, "the ball is too big, it won't fit". I ask, "how > big"? And they reply, "one thou". I told them to clean up the cup/socket and > that afternoon I got a call that the shaft was finished. > > It's exactly what I wanted in the first place. > > That's why I insisted and insisted with the shop. I knew it could be done > b/c the guys out west told me it could. It became a point of honour. I > wasn't going to let the shop off the hook. Don't get me wrong: they were > polite and sympathetic with my situation, but clearly just didn't want to > deal with this Toyota/metric thing. There were no arguments or insults and > only charged me for the labour that went into the final assembly. So, from > that point of view, they were great. And I will go back on good terms (no > choice, anyways). > > I think my Wood's shaft is great, but this hybrid is Toyota and MY idea. I > also found that the stock d-card gets a few more degrees than the modified > Wood's. > > I think I'll put it on my truck and keep the Woody as a spare. > > So. For all you 60-owners out there, a front shaft rebuild is possible and > not really that big a deal. > > I know where you can get it all welded and balanced.... > > -- > Mike Taylor > Proud Dad of Justine (4 1/2) > and Jaxon (3) > True North Toyota Land Cruisers > Ottawa Valley, Canada > LANDCRUISERS.CA > TLCA #2300 > '84 BJ42 > '85 BJ70 > (the Killer 3Bs) Or... You could have sent the shaft to Jesse at HighAngleDrivelines and he would have put a DC on it for about $150 US. He also can lengthen the shaft or shorten as needed. We have done this on several sprung over FJ60's, an FJ40 and a BJ42(front and rear shafts). Bill R. From: w.j.markerink@a1.nl To: dtlc@helios.net Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 23:22:11 +0200 Subject: Re: [DTLC] Double-cardan front shaft rebuild Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net On 14 Apr 2004 at 10:46, Michael Taylor wrote: > So, finally I have my hybrid Toyota 70-series front drive shaft with a > double-cardan. It's a hybrid because I took a 60-series d-card, rebuilt it, > and added it to a 70-series spline/yoke. Those came on early 60-series, right? (but with different/incompatible flange-size, right?) > I couldn't simply lengthen the 60 shaft for the 70 application b/c it's > impossible to get metric tube here (and if I could get it, it would be > impossible to get our one-and-only drive shaft shop to actually take it and > use it) (read on). > > It only took 6 months, some research and a lot of arm-twisting to get it > done. > > Here's the story: > > After my 3" spring lift, my front shaft started vibrating, at any speed and > even simply with the hubs-locked-but-not-in-4wd. I had prepared a couple of > years in advance for exactly this situation, where the lift made the front > shaft vibrate, by saving a 60-series front shaft for its double cardan. FWIW: An OME 2" lift on HJ60/'87 is also enough to induce vibration.... > I took it to the one-and-only drive shaft shop in the region who told me > that it couldn't be done; the d-card couldn't be rebuilt. I checked at Toy, > and, sure enough there are no replacement parts to be had there for the > double cardan. A new shaft would cost $1100 (big frigging snicker and > choking laugh here). > > I then asked about replacement components on this list and the guys out west > didn't seem to see any problem to doing this rebuild. Greg Bowie managed to > dig up part numbers for the ball and u-joints for the double-cardan unit. > Thanks a million, Greg! Were those partnumbers posted on the list? (if not: hint....;)) > I returned to the shop; the guys kind of looked at me sideways, took the > parts and desired specs and called me back that same day saying the little > post was too worn, couldn't be fixed. They said it couldn't be MIG'ed up and > turned on a lathe. > > (At this point, winter was upon us and I wanted some 4WD... It didn't look > like I was gonna get it locally and certainly not on time. So I bought a > shaft from Tom Wood's out of Utah. Talking to those guys on the phone was > like talking to drive-shaft heaven. Completely knowledeable (as expected) no > whining about metric, Toyota or Mazda(?), used to requests from off-roaders, > not afraid of modifications meant for heavy, unorthodox use (high angle). Baaytheway....you are probably aware that the Toyota mini-truck joints allow a much larger angle? (35 vs 23 degrees) http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/tlc_cardan-angle.txt > I > had the shaft within a week. And cheaper and simpler than the Chevy shaft > with 2 adaptors that our local shop recommended.) > > I still felt that my idea was possible, so I took the double-cardan yoke > with the worn post to a machine shop down the road. They turned it and > sleeved it. It just took 2 months to get the job done b/c they had lots of > "big jobs". Understandable, and I was no longer rushed. > > I went back to the driveline shop last week. This time they really looked at > me funny. I handed over the 2 bits of shaft, front 1/2 70-series, dble-card > 1/2 60-series, with all new u-joints and new ball and rebuilt post, the tube > was already cut to exactly the length required. All that needed to be done > was welding, assembly and balancing, and he says, "we'll see what we can > do". > > Two days ago, they call me, "the ball is too big, it won't fit". I ask, "how > big"? And they reply, "one thou". I told them to clean up the cup/socket and > that afternoon I got a call that the shaft was finished. > > It's exactly what I wanted in the first place. > > That's why I insisted and insisted with the shop. I knew it could be done > b/c the guys out west told me it could. It became a point of honour. :)) > I > wasn't going to let the shop off the hook. Don't get me wrong: they were > polite and sympathetic with my situation, but clearly just didn't want to > deal with this Toyota/metric thing. There were no arguments or insults and > only charged me for the labour that went into the final assembly. So, from > that point of view, they were great. And I will go back on good terms (no > choice, anyways). > > I think my Wood's shaft is great, but this hybrid is Toyota and MY idea. :)) > I > also found that the stock d-card gets a few more degrees than the modified > Wood's. Any exact numbers? -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] From: Mark Whatley To: landcruisers@birfield.com Subject: Re: [LCML] Double-cardan front shaft rebuild Reply-To: landcruisers@birfield.com Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 10:28:51 -0800 Michael Taylor wrote: > > I couldn't simply lengthen the 60 shaft for the 70 application b/c it's > impossible to get metric tube here (and if I could get it, it would be > impossible to get our one-and-only drive shaft shop to actually take it and > use it) (read on). A trick that my D/S guy showed me is to use larger, non-metric tube. We use tubes cut from Dodge truck shafts. It is about 2.75 inches OD and the stock Toy tube is about 2.6 inches OD. It will slip over the Toy tube with a little slop. We put three spot welds on the outer surface of the little bit of tube that we leave when we cut the ends off. These spots make the larger tube an interference fit. Then it is a simple matter to true it and weld it all up. Cheaper than buying metric tube (especially when you are scavanging old truck DSs), and much stronger as well (thicker wall section as well as larger diameter. Mark... From: "scott urquhart" To: landcruisers@birfield.com Subject: Re: [LCML] Double-cardan front shaft rebuild Reply-To: landcruisers@birfield.com Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:26:25 -0700 >From: Mark Whatley >Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 10:28:51 -0800 > >Michael Taylor wrote: >> >>I couldn't simply lengthen the 60 shaft for the 70 application b/c it's >>impossible to get metric tube here (and if I could get it, it would be >>impossible to get our one-and-only drive shaft shop to actually take it >>and >>use it) (read on). > > A trick that my D/S guy showed me is to use larger, non-metric tube. >We use tubes cut from Dodge truck shafts. It is about 2.75 inches OD and >the stock Toy tube is about 2.6 inches OD. It will slip over the Toy >tube with a little slop. We put three spot welds on the outer surface of >the little bit of tube that we leave when we cut the ends off. These >spots make the larger tube an interference fit. Then it is a simple >matter to true it and weld it all up. > > Cheaper than buying metric tube (especially when you are scavanging >old truck DSs), and much stronger as well (thicker wall section as well >as larger diameter. Why not get the d/s gut to turn down your toyota parts on the lathe and then use a slightly smaller tube? Scott Urquhart, 72/87 V8J40 TBI, K3 Gixxer 1000 From: Mark Whatley To: landcruisers@birfield.com Subject: Re: [LCML] Double-cardan front shaft rebuild Reply-To: landcruisers@birfield.com Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:13:49 -0800 scott urquhart wrote: > LCML Homepage: http://www.birfield.com/mailman/listinfo/landcruisers > > Why not get the d/s gut to turn down your toyota parts on the lathe and > then > use a slightly smaller tube? > Because; >> Cheaper than buying metric tube (especially when you are scavanging >> old truck DSs), and much stronger as well (thicker wall section as >> well as larger diameter. >> And it is simpler and easier to press fit over the spot welds than to turn the end unitsa down. But mainly because the Dodge truck shafts are stronger. Mark... Subject: [LCML] Double-cardan front shaft rebuild From: Michael Taylor To: Reply-To: landcruisers@birfield.com Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 09:52:18 -0400 on 4/14/04 10:53 AM, Stewart Semeraro at SSemeraro@trc1.com wrote: > Ok so give up the info! Where/what/how on the parts for the rebuild! > this would be great information! Thanks. > > Stew Once again, thanks to Greg Bowie: -U-joints, precision #513, 1091320 -socket and seal, precision #614, 1091019 I got them same-day at my corner UAP. Cheers -- Mike Taylor Proud Dad of Justine (4 1/2) and Jaxon (3) True North Toyota Land Cruisers Ottawa Valley, Canada LANDCRUISERS.CA TLCA #2300 '84 BJ42 '85 BJ70 (the Killer 3Bs) http://www.uapinc.com/client/en/index.html Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 20:22:11 -0600 To: dtlc@helios.net From: Bill Ritchie Subject: Re: [DTLC] Double-cardan front shaft rebuild Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net >Baaytheway....you are probably aware that the Toyota mini-truck >joints allow a much larger angle? (35 vs 23 degrees) HighAngle Drivelines uses Toy minitruck CV's with their conversions. Bill R. Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 10:23:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [DTLC] Double-cardan front shaft rebuild From: Michael Taylor To: Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net on 4/15/04 6:20 AM, W-J at w.j.markerink@a1.NL wrote: > Those came on early 60-series, right? > (but with different/incompatible flange-size, right?) Yes, my donor 60 shaft shaft came from an '82 BJ60. Flange size is different. > FWIW: > An OME 2" lift on HJ60/'87 is also enough to induce vibration.... And do the later 60s have the DC? And vibrate despite that? > Were those partnumbers posted on the list? > (if not: hint....;)) Here you go: Once again, thanks to Greg Bowie: -U-joints, precision #513, 1091320 -socket and seal, precision #614, 1091019 I got them same-day at my corner UAP. Cheers -- Mike Taylor Ottawa From: Michael Taylor To: Subject: [LCML] Re: Double-cardan front shaft rebuild Reply-To: landcruisers@birfield.com Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 10:23:24 -0400 In reply to Willem-Jan's question: >> I also found that the stock d-card gets a few more degrees than the modified >> Wood's. > > Any exact numbers? The Wood's shaft gets 35 degrees operating angulation. As for my "new" DC; well, out to the garage... (phew) Well, this is not quite exact science in my hands; shaft upright with my magnetic protractor stuck on it... and I'm not sure how to judge "operating angulation" from this. One position, the tighter one, gives me 34 degrees and the other position gives 44 degrees. Therefore, I would guess what seems to be the obvious; operating angulation is 34 degrees. I had measured the old shaft pre re-build (when the post was still worn), and got 38 degrees. So the Woody is better in that respect. Cheers -- Mike Taylor To: landcruisers@birfield.com From: "VJ Chevota" Subject: [LCML] Double Cardan rebuild part numbers Reply-To: landcruisers@birfield.com Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 09:28:51 -0500 Having been through all of this recently I thought I had posted the final part numbers for rebuilding the front drive shaft for an FJ60 CV drive shaft. Here they are. CV U joints: Precision/Napa #513 2 req'd ~$20.00 ea CV Centering Repair kit: 407-0 or 407-9 depending on the ID of the ball. 1 kit req'd. ~$20.00 ea. See the Rockford Driveline link for more info/dimensions, etc. My '83 FJ60 donor shafts used a 407-0 centering repair kit. See the links as they have great info. I will also offer that rebuilding this CV joint is no easy task. It can be done but I suggest finding a driveshaft shop that has experience doing this and is willing. I would gladly pay an hour of their shop labor rate for someone experienced in this to rebuild it. Dave G Bham, AL http://www.rockforddriveline.com/toyota.pdf http://www2.dana.com/expert/wc.dll?DSD~dedsec~2~13~04~ From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" To: landcruisers@birfield.com Cc: dtlc@helios.net Subject: [LCML] Re: Double-cardan front shaft rebuild Reply-To: landcruisers@birfield.com Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 20:37:03 +0200 On 15 Apr 2004 at 9:52, Michael Taylor wrote: > Once again, thanks to Greg Bowie: > > -U-joints, precision #513, 1091320 > -socket and seal, precision #614, 1091019 > > I got them same-day at my corner UAP. For those like me, abroad, with no clue where to look....;)) http://www.uapinc.com/client/en/index.html Though I still have no clue where to find the brand 'precision', if my assumption is correct....Google didn't help much, the word is too generic....;(( -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:31:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [LCML] Double-cardan front shaft rebuild From: Michael Taylor To: , , , For those of you who wrote that you were unfamiliar with the Precision brand of u-joints, check this site and maybe you can cross-reference. http://www.federal-mogul.com/cda/content/front/0,2194,2442_7709,00.html Cheers -- Mike Taylor Proud Dad of Justine (4 1/2) and Jaxon (3) True North Toyota Land Cruisers Ottawa Valley, Canada LANDCRUISERS.CA TLCA #2300 '84 BJ42 '85 BJ70 (the Killer 3Bs)