From: w.j.markerink@a1.nl To: landcruisers@birfield.com, dtlc@helios.net, 80scool@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 21:31:03 +0200 Subject: [DTLC] Balancing: Lug-centric vs hub-centric Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net After reading this page.... http://www.swpinzgauer.org/pinz-archives/html/ken_anderson.html ....it just dawned on me that the way my tires were and are balanced, relies heavily on the hub being exactly centered in relation to the lugs.... And that is with a professional tire-shop, also dealing with the largest truck tires, so they must know what they are doing.... And the only other method I know is with the tire mounted, on the vehicle (which doesn't sound like a good idea on any driven axle). Any opinion? -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "idcruiserman" Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 19:45:28 -0000 Subject: [80] Re: Balancing: Lug-centric vs hub-centric Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" wrote: > After reading this page.... > > http://www.swpinzgauer.org/pinz-archives/html/ken_anderson.html > > ....it just dawned on me that the way my tires were and are balanced, > relies heavily on the hub being exactly centered in relation to the > lugs.... > And that is with a professional tire-shop, also dealing with the > largest truck tires, so they must know what they are doing.... > > And the only other method I know is with the tire mounted, on the > vehicle (which doesn't sound like a good idea on any driven axle). I thought 80 series wheels were lug-centric. Many tire shops will balance wheels on the rig, but they may balk if it's got a LSD or auto-locker. From: w.j.markerink@a1.NL To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com, dtlc@helios.net, landcruisers@birfield.com Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 00:51:00 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [DTLC] Balancing: Lug-centric vs hub-centric Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net On 5 Aug 2003 at 19:45, idcruiserman wrote: > I thought 80 series wheels were lug-centric. They are (and at least on a semi-floating rear axle there is no hub to center it on in the first place!). But I have never seen my shop balance any tire other than on a hub- centric machine. Never seen any adapter for lug-centric balancing either (is that the only way to do it?....adapting it to a lug- centric machine?). Note that any (thick) coating afterwards also influences the lug-vs- hub geometry/alignment. And even before my coating (sandblasted, torch-gun galvanized, powder coated) I always had a slight vibration that never showed up on the tire balancer (but was too low in frequency to be from the drive shaft). > Many tire shops will > balance wheels on the rig, but they may balk if it's got a LSD or > auto-locker. But how do they do this on a driven axle in the first place? Lifting both sides, and keeping the driveshaft stationairy? Don't like that for the internal diff gears....these are not meant to spin at high speed (don't even have bearings). And the other side stationary and having the drive shaft rotating at 2 times the speed (diff ratio 4, divided by 2 through the internal diff gears). Also: with older tires, especially large/coars mudders, you never get a clean reading, since the irregularity in shape cause vibration on the touching sensor-wheel, all by its own. -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] From: mike@metalmangler.com Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: [DTLC] Balancing: Lug-centric vs hub-centric Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 05:37:55 -0400 On August 5, 2003 03:31 pm, you wrote: > ....it just dawned on me that the way my tires were and are balanced, > relies heavily on the hub being exactly centered in relation to the > lugs.... The lugs should be good enough to go by as long as the lugs have conical seats. It's not like these wheels are turning at 10,000rpm or anything, and it's not like the wheel is the only factor in balancing the axle assembly. > And the only other method I know is with the tire mounted, on the > vehicle (which doesn't sound like a good idea on any driven axle). Actually, balancing in-place can be a Very Good Thing because it takes into account any wonkiness in the rotor/drum etc. These things change over time, which is why tire balancing isn't something that gets done to the gram. Mike Graham | Metalworker, rustic, part-time zealot. mike@metalmangler.com |=20 | Caledon, Ontario, Canada From: w.j.markerink@a1.nl To: dtlc@helios.net Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:05:23 +0200 Subject: Re: [DTLC] Balancing: Lug-centric vs hub-centric Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net On 6 Aug 2003 at 5:37, mike@metalmangler.com wrote: > On August 5, 2003 03:31 pm, you wrote: > > > ....it just dawned on me that the way my tires were and are > > balanced, relies heavily on the hub being exactly centered in > > relation to the lugs.... > > The lugs should be good enough to go by as long as the lugs have > conical seats. It's not like these wheels are turning at 10,000rpm or > anything, and it's not like the wheel is the only factor in balancing > the axle assembly. It's not the shape of the lugs I am worried about, but about the possible excentricity of the hub of the rim! You don't need much coating residue to be 0.5mm off, which probably is enough to create a few 'fake' grams....which is enough to create a never-vanishing vibration at high speed. Remember, I drive 180km/h with this thing....;)) (gasoline-turbo's like to go on until 250km/h) > > And the only other method I know is with the tire mounted, on the > > vehicle (which doesn't sound like a good idea on any driven axle). > > Actually, balancing in-place can be a Very Good Thing because it > takes > into account any wonkiness in the rotor/drum etc. These things change > over time, which is why tire balancing isn't something that gets done > to the gram. It *is* over here. No clearance until both sides read a (digital) 0/0....and they always succeed. And even reproduceable, same reading for the same tire, if done in succession, so no fake precision either. -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] From: mike@metalmangler.com Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: [DTLC] Balancing: Lug-centric vs hub-centric Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 16:44:43 -0400 On August 6, 2003 08:05 am, you wrote: > It's not the shape of the lugs I am worried about, but about the > possible excentricity of the hub of the rim! If you have conical lug-seats then the wheel centers via the lugs on your car. If you have flat lug-seats then the wheel has to center via the hub. Every 'cruiser that I have noticed has conical lugs, so that's what should be used to center it for balancing. > You don't need much coating residue to be 0.5mm off, which probably > is enough to create a few 'fake' grams.... If your wheel centered to the hub (which it doesn't) then yes your wheel could be thrown off half a millimeter by a buildup of crud, and the result would be more than a few grams of eccentric weight. However, I'm a machine builder, and I make flywheels that take carbide hammers and spin at up to ten thousand RPM. We don't even balance *them* to a fraction of a gram. It's unnecessary, as the condition of the flywheel will *immediately* change once it's being used. Who cares if it balances perfect when it's not being used? As soon as product touches it the balance changes. Similarly, one short skid or one wee pebble between the treads would change the dynamics of a tire.=20 > which is enough to create a > never-vanishing vibration at high speed. > Remember, I drive 180km/h with this thing....;)) > (gasoline-turbo's like to go on until 250km/h) It doesn't matter how fast you're going - the out-of-roundness of the=20 tire will be far more of an issue than a couple of grams of weight. > It *is* over here. Does it help? Mike Graham | Metalworker, rustic, part-time zealot. mike@metalmangler.com |=20 | Caledon, Ontario, Canada From: w.j.markerink@a1.nl To: dtlc@helios.net Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 03:41:34 +0200 Subject: Re: [DTLC] Balancing: Lug-centric vs hub-centric Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net On 6 Aug 2003 at 16:44, mike@metalmangler.com wrote: > On August 6, 2003 08:05 am, you wrote: > > > It's not the shape of the lugs I am worried about, but about the > > possible excentricity of the hub of the rim! > > If you have conical lug-seats then the wheel centers via the lugs on > > your car. If you have flat lug-seats then the wheel has to center via > the hub. Every 'cruiser that I have noticed has conical lugs, so > that's what should be used to center it for balancing. I know, I know, but that's *not* how they are balanced! Each and every balancer I have seen thusfar is hub-centric. Insert excentric hub, and you're toast. > > You don't need much coating residue to be 0.5mm off, which probably > > is enough to create a few 'fake' grams.... > > If your wheel centered to the hub (which it doesn't) then yes your > wheel could be thrown off half a millimeter by a buildup of crud, and > the result would be more than a few grams of eccentric weight. The result *is* a few 'fake' grams of excentric weight on the *balancer*!....8-)) > However, I'm a machine builder, and I make flywheels that take carbide > hammers and spin at up to ten thousand RPM. We don't even balance > *them* to a fraction of a gram. It's unnecessary, as the condition of > the flywheel will *immediately* change once it's being used. Who > cares if it balances perfect when it's not being used? As soon as > product touches it the balance changes. Similarly, one short skid or > one wee pebble between the treads would change the dynamics of a tire. > > > > which is enough to create a > > never-vanishing vibration at high speed. > > Remember, I drive 180km/h with this thing....;)) > > (gasoline-turbo's like to go on until 250km/h) > > It doesn't matter how fast you're going - the out-of-roundness of > the > tire will be far more of an issue than a couple of grams of weight. Yup, that's why I understand the 'on-the-wheel-balancing' even less....you then also include out-of-round variations into the equation.... > > It *is* over here. > > Does it help? No, but after reading about this topic, I am convinced it *can't* even work....hub-centric balancing for a lug-centric rim/vehicle.... -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] From: "KW" To: Subject: Re: [LCML] Balancing: Lug-centric vs hub-centric Reply-To: landcruisers@birfield.com Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:19:37 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 3:31 PM > LCML Homepage: http://www.birfield.com/mailman/listinfo/landcruisers > > After reading this page.... > > http://www.swpinzgauer.org/pinz-archives/html/ken_anderson.html > > ....it just dawned on me that the way my tires were and are balanced, > relies heavily on the hub being exactly centered in relation to the > lugs.... > And that is with a professional tire-shop, also dealing with the > largest truck tires, so they must know what they are doing.... > > And the only other method I know is with the tire mounted, on the > vehicle (which doesn't sound like a good idea on any driven axle). > > Any opinion? If you get the "Rock Crawlers" from 4-Wheel Parts Wholesalers you better count on the hole being off center. I had a hard time finding a shop that could balance on the lugs. Keith Whitlow '77 FJ-40 ARB, OME, SM465 + lots of other abbreviations! There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." From: "Jonathan M. Rundlett" To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: [DTLC] Balancing: Lug-centric vs hub-centric Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:43:02 -0700 Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net >On 5 Aug 2003 at 19:45, idcruiserman wrote: > > > I thought 80 series wheels were lug-centric. > >They are (and at least on a semi-floating rear axle there is no hub >to center it on). >But I have never seen my shop balance any tire other than on a hub- >centric machine. Never seen any adapter for lug-centric balancing >either (is that the only way to do it?....adapting it to a lug- >centric machine?). I know I'm a bit late on this, but my email has been down for a while, and I figgered I'd throw my $US0.02 in... As a "professional" tire technician (hey, it's a job until I finish school) I can say that it takes little effort to "stud balance" a wheel. I do it for any alloy rim on a car, and hard to balance truck/steel rims. I also always stud balance Toyota wheels. Many of my coworkers do not, unless the customer specifically asks for it. Most modern computer balancers com e with an assortment of pin plates for attaching studs to mount the wheel on the balancer as nearly as possible to how it will be mounted on the vehicle. All of ours (Sears Auto Center) do. So, when you go to a tire shop, ask them to stud balance or "pin balance" your wheels. With few exceptions, Toyota asks that all their wheels be stud balanced. -- Jonathan M. Rundlett Phoenix, AZ, USA TLCA Member #11004 1983 FJ-60, blue, stock, "Rhino II" To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "pieterdenhaan" Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:05:09 -0000 Subject: [80] Re: Balancing: Lug-centric vs hub-centric Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com -- In 80scool@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" wrote: > After reading this page.... > > http://www.swpinzgauer.org/pinz-archives/html/ken_anderson.html > > ....it just dawned on me that the way my tires were and are balanced, > relies heavily on the hub being exactly centered in relation to the > lugs.... > And that is with a professional tire-shop, also dealing with the > largest truck tires, so they must know what they are doing.... > > And the only other method I know is with the tire mounted, on the > vehicle (which doesn't sound like a good idea on any driven axle). > > Any opinion? Well, my dealer balanced on the car; they explained how and it sounded scary but I forgot how; I think rolling on 4 wheels. That's how they found out that the Nissan (sic) wheels that were fitted and which balanced out perfectly on the balancing machine caused the annoying vibes I had; they rely on the nuts for centering (and they did not fit well so the wheels weren't held centered) whereas the toyo wheels have a ring that centres the wheel, the nuts only fastening it. I clearly saw the diffference and toyo wheels cured the vibes so I guess that's it. To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 03:40:49 +0200 Subject: Re: [80] Re: Balancing: Lug-centric vs hub-centric Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com On 8 Aug 2003 at 14:05, pieterdenhaan wrote: --- In 80scool@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" wrote: >> After reading this page.... >> >> http://www.swpinzgauer.org/pinz-archives/html/ken_anderson.html >> >> ....it just dawned on me that the way my tires were and are balanced, >> relies heavily on the hub being exactly centered in relation to the >> lugs.... >> And that is with a professional tire-shop, also dealing with the >> largest truck tires, so they must know what they are doing.... >> >> And the only other method I know is with the tire mounted, on the >> vehicle (which doesn't sound like a good idea on any driven axle). >> > > Well, my dealer balanced on the car; they explained how and it > sounded scary but I forgot how; I think rolling on 4 wheels. That's > how they found out that the Nissan (sic) wheels that were fitted and > which balanced out perfectly on the balancing machine caused the > annoying vibes I had; they rely on the nuts for centering (and they > did not fit well so the wheels weren't held centered) whereas the toyo > wheels have a ring that centres the wheel, the nuts only fastening it. > I clearly saw the diffference and toyo wheels cured the vibes so I > guess that's it. Sorry for this late reply, probably overlooked this one (just finished throwing all replies into one file, with another late reply from someone else (at the DTLC-list), all now at: http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/tlc_balance-lug-vs-hub-centric.txt Anyway: AFAIK there is no Toyota 4x4 (Cruiser/Hilux/HiAce/Dyna(?)) that uses anything else than lug-centric mounting....there *is* no centering hub/ring in the middle, the conical nuts do the entire job. This does not mean that you always have the right nuts for the right wheel....in particular alloy needs different nuts, because the metal of the rim is weaker. -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]