(lower parts of this thread also in: engine_starting-heating_by-welding.txt) About marine-methods applied to cars, anodes/cathodes: http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Car/carCP.htm From: "Robert Furman" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:24:53 -0700 Subject: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Makes for interesting reading, anyone ever tried this? http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/electrolytic_derusting.htm Robert Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 10:48:30 -0500 From: Bill McCabe Subject: Re: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing On 12/9/04 at 8:24 AM, rwfnetworking@cox.net (Robert Furman) wrote: > http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/electrolytic_derusting.htm All the time. I've used it for rust removal on very heavily corroded parts as large as bumpers, tie rod and crossmembers so far, not to mention countless smaller parts. In my opinion it is the best method of rust removal BAR NONE, and am willing to go into the science of why I think that if anyone's interested. Whatsmore, it's a lazy man's dream. Bill From: "Robert Furman" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 09:01:49 -0700 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Sure, we all want to hear what you have to say :) I have read a few articles and sure looks like the best way to go overall. Not only is it safe, but it's not costly, doesn't require any expensive equipment and it doesn't remove any good metal. I caught an article also that mentioned on large parts that you could use a sponge soaked in the electrolyte. Sounds pretty cool. Sure beats cleaning up after sand blasting and hours of grinding. Robert Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 12:56:10 -0500 From: Bill McCabe Subject: RE: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing On 12/9/04 at 9:01 AM, rwfnetworking@cox.net (Robert Furman) wrote: > Sure, we all want to hear what you have to say :) I have read a few > articles and sure looks like the best way to go overall. Not only is it > safe, but it's not costly, doesn't require any expensive equipment and it > doesn't remove any good metal. I caught an article also that mentioned on > large parts that you could use a sponge soaked in the electrolyte. Sounds > pretty cool. Sure beats cleaning up after sand blasting and hours of > grinding. > > Robert OK, I'll try to sum it without repeating the how-tos that are out there already, and without running on and and boring everbody to death. I've been using ERR for 3 year now, and it is my method of choice if I can possibly use it (BTW-I've never had any luck with the sponge method). As an example, the crossmember that the spare hangs from on my FJ62 was *very* heavly scaled (it's a NE truck). I put it in a plastic vat with water, the washing soda, and a sheet of 18/8 SS as the cathode lying on the bottom (don't let the work touch it). I submerged the crossmember, attached the positive lead from my trickle charger to the cathode--set at continuous 10 amps (though it only passes 6-8)--and the negative to the crossmember and let it run for a 2-3 hours. When I turned it off and pulled out the crossmember I stood it on end on the garage floor to start scraping it, but the force of it clunking to the floor caused all of the scale to simply slide off in a pile, leaving bare metal with a black sooty residue which washes off with water. The surface will not be nice and shiny and smooth, except where it wasn't corroded. It'll be rough like emery paper-which is exactly the surface you want for paint like POR15. What's happening: In the presence of oxygen and an electrolytic solution, such as rain and road salt, the iron in plain steel will form a galvanic reaction with other elements or impurities which are lower on the electomotive scale and then bond with available oxygen atoms (oxidation). Because iron has either 2 or 3 valent electrons, it'll form 3 oxides: Feo, Fe2O3, Fe3O4. Fe2O3, rust, is the reddish ugly stuff that eats our cruisers, and is the most common by far. Fe3O4 is a very tight black oxide which is actually what gun blueing is I believe and I'm pretty sure that's what the black soot left over is. With ERR, the galvanic reaction is being forced to go the other way which steals oxygen (reduction) from the rust at the point of the circuit at the surface of the good steel which effectively separates the layer of rust off. Because I use SS as the cathode, the water in my tank turns slightly green from chromium oxide (from the chromium being stolen from the SS).=20 What's good about it: -comparatively little labor involved -very little expense -no toxic chemicals or waste involved -thoroughly removes rust -comparatively little mess -it's the only way to remove rust completely w/o removing *any* good metal -effective degreaser (it is a vat of washing soda after all) -pitted metal ready to paint WARNING!! -Don't get your pos and neg leads mixed up. If you do and go off and leave it for any amount of time you can kiss your piece goodbye. It'll add years of rust in just a few minutes. Why I hate the wire wheel: The surface of rusted steel is not smooth (duh!). At the level of good metal there is a very complex topography of rust pockets and good metal. The wire wheel beautifully strips away the surface layer of loose rust (the stuff you breath in) and once it hits the fine peaks of good metal it spreads those over tiny pockets of rust, just like cream cheese on toast, perfect for guaranteeing that you'll have to do it all over again in a year or too. The test of time: the first time I used this method three years ago was on my rear stabilizer bar and frame brackets which were very rusted and pitted. I derusted them, washed them with marine clean, gave them a spritz of Prep-Step, and coated them with Zero Rust. After 3 New England winters with the salt and the sand and the slush, they show absolutely no evidence of rust restarting. Ok I'm tired now, but I'll add more later if anyone's still interested. Bill From: "Chris Basehore" To: "Land Cruiser Mailing" Subject: Re: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:16:45 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill McCabe" Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 12:56 PM > attached the positive lead from my > trickle charger to the cathode--set at continuous 10 amps (though it only passes < 6-8)--and the negative to the crossmember and let it run for a 2-3 hours. how big a charger do you need for this? I've got an old 10 amp charger and I tried this with some small components. worked like a charm! ...but took about 24 hours to finish... I've heard using a stick welder (DC welder) works great. I'm wondering if my charger isn't enough... I've been considering a 150-200 amp 12VDC power supply (like you use in a stereo shop to run demo amps and such) thinking the extra current might do the trick Chris Basehore TLCA# 4821 Shippensburg PA 74 FJ40, 77 FJ40 *new*, 84 FJ60, and 93 FZJ80 "klunky" Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:25:28 -0500 From: Bill McCabe Subject: Re: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing On 12/9/04 at 1:16 PM, bbasemo1@earthlink.net (Chris Basehore) wrote: > how big a charger do you need for this? > > I've got an old 10 amp charger and I tried this with some small components. > worked like a charm! ...but took about 24 hours to finish... > > I've heard using a stick welder (DC welder) works great. > > I'm wondering if my charger isn't enough... > > I've been considering a 150-200 amp 12VDC power supply (like you use in a > stereo shop to run demo amps and such) thinking the extra current might do > the trick Does your 10 amp charger show how much current is actually passing? If there's a lot of dirt/rust/grease/paint where your leads are clamped, it might have been only passing 1.5 amps.=20 I use a Sears battery charger that has various setting including a "manual" switch which keeps the amperage constant. I'll play around with using a sick welder on some bigger pieces when I get a chance. Bill Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 10:30:37 -0800 (PST) From: Floyd Bufkin Subject: Re: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Anybody know where I can get a plastic tub big enough for a whole cruiser? :-) From: "Mark C. Baker" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:31:18 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing I thought this subject was pretty cool so surfed around and gathered a lot of tips from several sources. Here they are for the archives. http://www.icehouse.net/overland/derusting.html http://www.bhi.co.uk/hints/rust.htm I am going to try my mig welder as a source +20 V @ 105 amps :-)Not all at once of course! I have infinitely adjustable volts and amps on the welder... 1. I decided to start small, so I made up about a quart of solution using washing soda (note: found it at Kroger's). I took an axle cap from my Allis B, about 3" diameter, which had been cleaned and dried. I hung it into the solution using alligator clip, and attached the negative lead to it. I took a small piece of mower blade scrap and did the same with the positive. I set my little battery charger to 10A at 12V and turned it on. 2. The first thing that happened was all the plating from the clips deplated, and all the grease broke free from the parts. This made a lovely black scum that had to be cleaned from the bath and the scrap. LESSON 1 - wash the parts first. LESSON 2 - use unplated attachments when possible. 3. I cleaned out the solution and started again. After about 15 minutes the bubbles stopped. I pulled out the cap and about half the paint was loose. I cleaned it up, rotated it, and put it back in. I pulled out the scrap and cleaned the slime off with a wire wheel. LESSON 3 - wear clothes you don't like. 4. I had to repeat this about every 15 minutes. LESSON 4 - Use a bigger piece of scrap to allow more build-up time between cleaning. 5. After a day of messing, I had a cap that was basically paint free, no visible red rust, but black deposits where the rust had been. LESSON 5- This converts rust not removes rust. 6. I took the other cap and wire brushed it first, cleaned it in a solution identical to the electrolyte, then rinsed it and hooked it up. This time I used an old bearing cage to get more surface area. This decreased my cleaning frequency somewhat. Got essentially the same results, a rust free but not deposit free cap.=20 Since I had wire brushed the loose stuff off it is smoother and took less time to clean. LESSON 5 - good prep work helps. 7. This did a heck of a job of cleaning, I will probably start using this technique to degrease before painting. Still, most of my "heavy metal" will probably be cleaned with the sandblaster. I knew this as a great technique for destroying the last bit of rust in those delicate parts or deep pits, and particularly on sheet metal, but frankly I've had good luck with Rustoleum and good paint (if air and water can't get to rust it can't creep). 8. You missed the part about washing the black scum off with dishwashing detergent when you pull the part out of the solution. You also probably missed the part about not doing that in the wife's kitchen sink, witch can get you killed. 9. If you can find "Sodium Silicate" you can set up a second tank using that as the electrolyte to remove most of the grease, grime and crap before you do the derusting process. Since I've been using this process I haven't sandblasted anything I have a tank big enough to put the part in. The cost of electrolytic is less than 1/10 of the cost of sandblasting. A little planning allows you to derust while you're working on something else. DON'T FORGET THIS PROCESS GENERATES HYDROGEN GAS!=20 10. I have just started working with electrolysis my self but have the support of my work places corrosive engineer I am using a fifty five gallon plastic drum with four anodes , "rebar" been getting some good results so far 11. Here in Tenn. our local co-op carries "soda ash" some tobacco farmers burn it under their tobacco to get a darker finish. This is PURE sodium carbonate. This is what your looking for in the washing soda. This stuff really works wonders. I have been using it for the last few weeks to clean parts for my SuperA. I pitch the parts in the solution at night and come back the next evening and take them out. I only have a 6 amp battery charger. I have found that if you take and scrub the parts with "brillo" pads after soaking, it really shines the parts up for painting. PS the soda ash is about 12.00 for a fifty pound bag. Enough to do bunches of parts! 12. As the others have said, the paint is an insulator, so it will not "pick up speed" until it has worked for a while. Also, the temperature of the solution will affect the reaction speed. The only way for the washing soda to lift the paint is by those small bubbles of hydrogen lifting the edge of the paint film as it goes. If you want the reaction to go a bit faster, use Sodium Hydroxide (Lye) instead of or along with the Washing Soda. The lye is a little nastier on your hands, but it really does the job on grease, oil and paint by emulsifying it so it will lift off faster. I generally use lye all the time in my tank. 13. As mentioned by the others so far, lots of factors affect the process: 1. be sure you are using washing soda, not baking soda 2. the more and larger the anodes, the better 3. make sure the connections are good (the foam you see indicates so) 4. the warmer the temperature, the faster the process 5. it lifts paint well only if it is old, might take several iterations with good hard paint (you might consider using Easy-Off to get the paint off first). Even then it is a real slow process, an over-night type of thing. I end up doing it twice on most parts, washing off the residue with a Brillo pad each time. It is slow, but it works, it is cheap, and it does not take off good metal 14. A larger anode would be in order. I've used steel screen around the out side of an empty drywall bucket. also check your connections. Remember that this is a line of sight thing between the anode and your part. Pieces facing away from the anode will de-rust much slower than those facing the anode. The white foam is a good sign.=20 15. Also if the part is painted, you will not get much current draw. The process is mainly used for removing rust, not for removing paint. If you need to remove paint, try soaking the part in brake fluid if it's a small part. I keep a coffee can full of old brake fluid for this purpose. Put a painted part in there overnight and the paint is loose enough to wipe off by morning.=20 16. Used a battery charger for a while Now I use my mig welder. Puts out DC and can be adjusted. 17. Will the solution freeze in the winter? The freezing point is around 18 to 20 degrees farenheight, slightly lower if you are running current thru it. 18. This method works great!!! Iv used it on my Ferguson 1950 TEA and it was much easier, and healthier than using an angle grinder(a lot of dust you know), only I used Caustic Soda (LYE), that's the quickest method, to get the old crap off, it takes paint and grease as well as rust. Mark Baker aka Coolerman !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) From: Robert Furman To: Land Cruiser Mailing Subject: Re: Re: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:44:47 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing > From: Floyd Bufkin > Date: 2004/12/09 Thu PM 01:30:37 EST > > Anybody know where I can get a plastic tub big enough for a whole cruiser? :-) Floyd, according to one article that I read, if you have an item that is obvioiusly too big to place in tub you can place a large sponge soaked in the electrolyte inbetween your rusted item and the electrode. :) Robert Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:45:18 -0700 From: "Alan Tebbs" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing This subject has really got me interested. I can't wait to try it but I am still not sure about how you connect the charger to the piece being cleaned without eating away the charger clamps. Also, if I understand correctly you would want to line the sides of your plastic tub with a light gauge stainless sheet. So that the electrode is surrounding the object. Is that correct? Alan Tebbs 6/72 FJ40 (Always under construction) TLCA 10212 http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/adt72fj40/my_photos Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 10:04:27 -0900 From: Mark Whatley To: Land Cruiser Mailing Subject: Re: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Great thread!!!! The guys who know me are tired of hearing me say that "I learn something every day", and "If your not learning, your dead", and stuff like that. It's only 10:00 in the morning, but I know what my lesson for the day is. ;) Good stuff. Mark... From: "Mark C. Baker" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:07:56 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Alan Tebbs Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 1:45 PM Subject: RE: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? > This subject has really got me interested. I can't wait to try it but I am > still not sure about how you connect the charger to the piece being cleaned > without eating away the charger clamps. Also, if I understand correctly you > would want to line the sides of your plastic tub with a light gauge > stainless sheet. So that the electrode is surrounding the object. Is that > correct? That was my understanding. Another guy says he uses a fine mesh steel screen to line a 5 gallon bucket. If you could find a stainless fine mesh screen that would be perfect! Floyd, Rent a neighbors 55,000 gallon swimming pool for the weekend. You will need: 15,000 lbs of soda 500 sq feet of stainless steel sheet Large 2500 amp DC power supply (Military Surplus may have them) A crane might come in handy for placing and removing the body.=20 Have a 3000 PSI pressure washer available to remove the black oxide. Be ready to dry, sand, prime and paint so it doesn't rust back the next day... :-) Mark Baker aka Coolerman !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet)=20 From: "Steve" To: "Land Cruiser Mailing" Subject: Re: Re: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:22:39 -0800 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Furman" Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 10:44 AM > Floyd, > > according to one article that I read, if you have an item that is > obvioiusly too big to place in tub you can place a large sponge soaked > in the electrolyte inbetween your rusted item and the electrode. > > :) Robert, Do you recall where that article is? Steve McGavren 71 FJ40 NoPO TLCA# 14294 San Ramon, CA steven4mcg@comcast.net Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:31:55 -0500 From: Bill McCabe Subject: RE: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing On 12/9/04 at 11:45 AM, atebbs@qwest.net (Alan Tebbs) wrote: > This subject has really got me interested. I can't wait to try it but I am > still not sure about how you connect the charger to the piece being cleaned > without eating away the charger clamps. Also, if I understand correctly you > would want to line the sides of your plastic tub with a light gauge > stainless sheet. So that the electrode is surrounding the object. Is that > correct? > The clamp on the piece can stay in all day and nothing will happen to it because it's in reduction. The other clamp should attach to a part of the stainlss steel that's protruding from the solution otherwise it'll be consumed. Container configuration is left to the imagination. Bill From: "Mark C. Baker" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: Re: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:33:42 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing -----Original Message----- From: landcruisers-bounces@birfield.com [mailto:landcruisers-bounces@birfield.com] On Behalf Of Steve Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 2:23 PM > Robert, > > Do you recall where that article is? Steve follow the links I posted. Steve McGavren 71 FJ40 NoPO TLCA# 14294 San Ramon, CA steven4mcg@comcast.net From: "Chris Basehore" To: "Land Cruiser Mailing" Subject: Re: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:52:34 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing ----- Original Message ----- From: "Floyd Bufkin" To: "Land Cruiser Mailing" Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 1:30 PM Subject: Re: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? > Anybody know where I can get a plastic tub big enough for a whole cruiser? > :-) one site I saw showed a guy de-rusting a trailer frame. he built a basic sturdy frame of 2x4 and plywood in his yard. lined the inside with heavy plastic sheeting so there were no leaks. (basically made a kiddie pool) filled with water and added solution. used lots of rebar wired together for the anodes (or cathodes... I get them mixed up) hung frame in the vat and wala!!!! don't know about a WHOLE cruiser, but this seems like a good idea for a frame ;o) Chris Basehore TLCA# 4821 Shippensburg PA 74 FJ40, 77 FJ40 *new*, 84 FJ60, and 93 FZJ80 "klunky" Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 11:02:15 -0900 From: Mark Whatley To: Land Cruiser Mailing Subject: Re: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Barry C. McCoin wrote: > Why couldn't use just use a metal barrel? You could attach your power > supply right to the rim, it would completely surround the object and you > would just need to rig the part to suspend from a board across the > top...that or you could devise a wooden or plastic "cage" that could > contain the object and isolate it from contact with the sides. I'm > envisioning a round wooden disk with some vertical pegs that could be > removed or moved closer in as need be. How often would you need to > scrape the barrel or replace it? That's intriguing. I've got access to all the 55 gallon drums I can use. Hhmmm... Mark... From: Bill McCabe Subject: RE: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing On 12/9/04 at 1:31 PM, coolerman@qx.net (Mark C. Baker) wrote: > 2. The first thing that happened was all the plating from the clips > deplated, and all the grease broke free from the parts. This made a lovely > black scum that had to be cleaned from the bath and the scrap. LESSON 1 - > wash the parts first. LESSON 2 - use unplated attachments when possible. I don't what kind of plating you mean, but it's safe to use with chromed items like bumpers. It'll only lift the chrome if it's already compromised. Unless you're referring to the clamp connection to the POS side, then yes it'll make short work of it. > 3. I cleaned out the solution and started again. After about 15 minutes the > bubbles stopped. I pulled out the cap and about half the paint was loose. I > cleaned it up, rotated it, and put it back in. I pulled out the scrap and > cleaned the slime off with a wire wheel. LESSON 3 - wear clothes you don't > like. I just wear rubber gloves and gently hand scrub items with a wire brush and use a screww driver to pop of some stubborn flakes, not very messy. > 4. I had to repeat this about every 15 minutes. LESSON 4 - Use a bigger > piece of scrap to allow more build-up time between cleaning. > > 5. After a day of messing, I had a cap that was basically paint free, no > visible red rust, but black deposits where the rust had been. LESSON 5- This > converts rust not removes rust. I'm not sure what you mean here by "converts not removes". My pieces come out rust-free and there is a deep layer of nice red iron oxide powder at the bottom of my tub (I only change the water once a year or so). > 7. This did a heck of a job of cleaning, I will probably start using this > technique to degrease before painting. Still, most of my "heavy metal" will > probably be cleaned with the sandblaster. I knew this as a great technique > for destroying the last bit of rust in those delicate parts or deep pits, > and particularly on sheet metal, but frankly I've had good luck with > Rustoleum and good paint (if air and water can't get to rust it can't > creep). I still degrease with a degreaser (Marine clean) right before painting just to be sure, but since it's already mostly degreased, it's very easy. > 8. You missed the part about washing the black scum off with dishwashing > detergent when you pull the part out of the solution. You also probably > missed the part about not doing that in the wife's kitchen sink, witch can > get you killed. I do small parts in our kitchen sink, just discreetly. Usually I just hose things off with a garden hose. I'm not too concerned with the black soot. I think that's Fe3O4 which is very stable. I rinse them mostly to remove any remainng washing soda > DON'T FORGET THIS PROCESS GENERATES HYDROGEN GAS! In insignificant amounts, though it always pays to be prudent > 10. I have just started working with electrolysis my self but have the > support of my work places corrosive engineer I am using a fifty five gallon > plastic drum with four anodes , "rebar" been getting some good results so > far One problem with using plain steel like rebar for the POS end is that it will corrode quickly which in turn interferes with the circuit > 11. Here in Tenn. our local co-op carries "soda ash" some tobacco farmers > burn it under their tobacco to get a darker finish. This is PURE sodium > carbonate. This is what your looking for in the washing soda. This stuff > really works wonders. I have been using it for the last few weeks to clean > parts for my SuperA. I pitch the parts in the solution at night and come > back the next evening and take them out. I only have a 6 amp battery > charger. I have found that if you take and scrub the parts with "brillo" > pads after soaking, it really shines the parts up for painting. PS the soda > ash is about 12.00 for a fifty pound bag. Enough to do bunches of parts! I've been using the same box of Washing soda for 3 years now and it's still mostly full. It's just there as an electrolyte, so it's not really consumed As I said above, I use the same solution over and over again, only sometimes filter out some of the big stuff through some old pantyhose. > The only way for the washing soda to lift the paint is by those small > bubbles of hydrogen lifting the edge of the paint film as it goes. Certain paints are stripped entirely, while others like powder coat will only be lifted to the extent that their bond with the metal is compromised. > 14. A larger anode would be in order. I've used steel screen around the out > side of an empty drywall bucket. also check your connections. Remember that > this is a line of sight thing between the anode and your part. Pieces facing > away from the anode will de-rust much slower than those facing the anode. > The white foam is a good sign. It atually does a good bit better than line-of-sight but that works as a rule of thumb. > 18. This method works great!!! Iv used it on my Ferguson 1950 TEA and it was > much easier, and healthier than using an angle grinder(a lot of dust you know Agreed, it is great, and it's fun too. Bill LCML Homepage/Unsubscribe: http://www.birfield.com/mailman/listinfo/landcruisers Host Website: www.birfield.com Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:09:02 -0500 From: "Barry C. McCoin" To: Subject: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Why couldn't use just use a metal barrel? You could attach your power supply right to the rim, it would completely surround the object and you would just need to rig the part to suspend from a board across the top...that or you could devise a wooden or plastic "cage" that could contain the object and isolate it from contact with the sides. I'm envisioning a round wooden disk with some vertical pegs that could be removed or moved closer in as need be. How often would you need to scrape the barrel or replace it? Hmmmm....as a biz....why not find a giant stainless vat that the winemakers throw out....wait, wait...aren't some tanker trucks made of stainless? Now that would be trick, a mobile part dunker. Put a generator on that bad boy and do it all on site. You could fit a 40 tub in one of those easily. Bmac Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:16:07 -0500 From: Bill McCabe Subject: Re: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing On 12/9/04 at 3:09 PM, BarryMcCoin@IsenhourHomes.com (Barry C. McCoin) wrote: > Why couldn't use just use a metal barrel? You could attach your power > supply right to the rim, it would completely surround the object and you > would just need to rig the part to suspend from a board across the > top...that or you could devise a wooden or plastic "cage" that could > contain the object and isolate it from contact with the sides. I'm > envisioning a round wooden disk with some vertical pegs that could be > removed or moved closer in as need be. How often would you need to > scrape the barrel or replace it? Hmmmm....as a biz....why not find a > giant stainless vat that the winemakers throw out....wait, wait...aren't > some tanker trucks made of stainless? Now that would be trick, a mobile > part dunker. Put a generator on that bad boy and do it all on site. > You could fit a 40 tub in one of those easily. > > Bmac No reason you couldn't, just keep in mind that the drum would be half of a live ciruit and you wouldn't to accidently become the other half. Also, the barrel will be consumed pretty quickly unless it's SS and all your electrolyte is going to be all over the shop floor. I'm going to try to do a frame this spring by just digging a suitably sized hole and lining it with plastic sheet. Bill From: "Mark C. Baker" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:19:58 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Shock hazard maybe for pets, kids, wife, unsuspecting friends? (Of course that last may provide great entertainment for those wrenching sessions in the garage... :-) ) As a side note: all those tips I posted were ones I gathered from the web. I have never personally tried this but am going to look for some lye or washing soda on my way home. Here are the links I forgot to post. Sorry Steve! http://tinyurl.com/5w6pa http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp http://tinyurl.com/4hbyd http://tinyurl.com/5cyxs Good site! Mark Baker aka Coolerman !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 12:27:43 -0800 (PST) From: Stan Michael Subject: Re: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing --- Bill McCabe wrote: > the barrel > will be consumed pretty quickly unless it's SS and all your > electrolyte is going > to be all over the shop floor. So I could conceivably do this with an old SS sink? sm ===== -------------- I am the wretch that song talks about... Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 13:42:09 -0700 To: Land Cruiser Mailing From: Phil Stevens Subject: Re: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Ok. I had to try this. Got the spare carrier off the '78 pig - it was covered with rust (like the rest of the vehicle). No washing soda at hand, so I tried borax. Piece of expanded steel for the anode, hooked up battery charger and went about my day. 2 hours later, I just lifted out the piece to examine it. 75 percent clean! Wow. This is a great new one for the bag o' tricks. ps Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:54:00 -0500 From: Bill McCabe Subject: Re: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing On 12/9/04 at 1:42 PM, phil@euphoria.org (Phil Stevens) wrote: > Ok. I had to try this. Got the spare carrier off the '78 pig - it was > covered with rust (like the rest of the vehicle). No washing soda at hand, > so I tried borax. Piece of expanded steel for the anode, hooked up battery > charger and went about my day. > > 2 hours later, I just lifted out the piece to examine it. 75 percent clean! > Wow. > > This is a great new one for the bag o' tricks. > > ps > It's a beautiful world :). Try using this before disassembling complex parts with small rusted nuts and bolts. Works wonders. Bill Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:56:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal From: dmaddox@intranetsinc.com To: "Land Cruiser Mailing" Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing What will this do to my neighboors good for nothing low life basset hound? -ragman Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:16:58 -0700 From: "Alan Tebbs" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing -----Original Message----- From: Mark C. Baker [SMTP:coolerman@qx.net] Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 1:20 PM > Shock hazard maybe for pets, kids, wife, unsuspecting friends? (Of course > that last may provide great entertainment for those wrenching sessions in > the garage... :-) ) > > As a side note: all those tips I posted were ones I gathered from the web. > I have never personally tried this but am going to look for some lye or > washing soda on my way home. > Here are the links I forgot to post. Sorry Steve! > > http://tinyurl.com/5w6pa > http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp > http://tinyurl.com/4hbyd > http://tinyurl.com/5cyxs Good site! On one of the links they were talking about a fiberglass cloth impregnated with graphite to use as the anode, does anybody know where to get this stuff? Alan Tebbs 6/72 FJ40 (Always under construction) TLCA 10212 http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/adt72fj40/my_photos Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:51:17 -0800 (PST) From: SKFitz Subject: Re: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal To: landcruisers@birfield.com Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing > Barry C. McCoin wrote: > > Why couldn't use just use a metal barrel? You could attach your power > > supply right to the rim, it would completely surround the object and you > > would just need to rig the part to suspend from a board across the > > top... B/c the barrel will electrolytically rot and leak. It's sort of like some electric voodoo ritual where your cruiser's cancer gets transferred to the anode. Great thread. I have a feeling that my electric bill is going to skyrocket in the near future. -Shawn TLCA # 2950 Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:52:10 -0700 From: "Alan Tebbs" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Just a note to those following this thread, the articles that Mark posted also do not use stainless steel Alan Tebbs 6/72 FJ40 (Always under construction) TLCA 10212 http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/adt72fj40/my_photos Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 12:53:07 -0900 From: Mark Whatley To: Land Cruiser Mailing Subject: Re: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing SKFitz wrote: >>Barry C. McCoin wrote: >> >>>Why couldn't use just use a metal barrel? You could attach your power >>>supply right to the rim, it would completely surround the object and you >>>would just need to rig the part to suspend from a board across the top... > > B/c the barrel will electrolytically rot and leak. > It's sort of like some electric voodoo ritual where > your cruiser's cancer gets transferred to the anode. > > Great thread. I have a feeling that my electric bill > is going to skyrocket in the near future. But... what you could do... is to get one of those plastic containment barrels. The ones that are made to drop leaking 55 gallon drums into for environmentally safe cleanups. Then you set your sacrifical metal drum inside of it. Let it "rot away as an anode and replace it when it is toast. Yes? No? Mark... -- Mark Whatley Owner, Cruisers Only, Wasilla Alaska Mailto:cruiser@mtaonline.net Technical Editor, Toyota Trails, TLCA Mailto:techexchange@tlca.org Alaska Cruiser Trek 2001! http://www.aktrek.somewhere.net Alaska Cruiser Trek 2002! http://www.xplorn.com/ACT2002 Alaska Cruiser Trek 2003! http://www.xplorn.com/ACT2003 From: "Steve" To: "Land Cruiser Mailing" Subject: Re: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:02:32 -0800 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing ----- Original Message ----- From: "SKFitz" Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 1:51 PM > > Barry C. McCoin wrote: > > > Why couldn't use just use a metal barrel? You could attach your power > > > supply right to the rim, it would completely surround the object and you > > > would just need to rig the part to suspend from a board across the top... > > B/c the barrel will electrolytically rot and leak. > It's sort of like some electric voodoo ritual where > your cruiser's cancer gets transferred to the anode. > > Great thread. I have a feeling that my electric bill > is going to skyrocket in the near future. Throw some plastic sheeting over a wheel barrel. Steve McGavren 71 FJ40 NoPO TLCA# 14294 San Ramon, CA steven4mcg@comcast.net From: "Briggs Evans" <78fj@comcast.net> To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 16:05:46 -0600 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing -----Original Message----- From: landcruisers-bounces@birfield.com [mailto:landcruisers-bounces@birfield.com] On Behalf Of Mark Whatley Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 3:53 PM > But... what you could do... is to get one of those plastic containment > barrels. The ones that are made to drop leaking 55 gallon drums into for > environmentally safe cleanups. Then you set your sacrifical metal drum > inside of it. Let it "rot away as an anode and replace it when it is toast. > > Yes? No? Yes. Briggs Evans Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:06:59 -0800 (PST) From: SKFitz Subject: Re: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal To: landcruisers@birfield.com Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing > Mark Whatley wrote: > > But... what you could do... is to get one of those > plastic containment barrels. The ones that are made > to drop leaking 55 gallon drums into for > environmentally safe cleanups. Then you set your > sacrifical metal drum inside of it. Let it "rot away > as an anode and replace it when it is toast. > >Yes? No? Yes. Got an extra? -Shawn TLCA #2950 Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:11:46 -0800 (PST) From: Floyd Bufkin Subject: Re: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing I was thinking you could get one of those large metal trash cans, and set it in a large plastic trash can, but those are all galvanized, so that would not be good. ===== Floyd Bufkin Ault,Colorado,USA 70 FJ40, 350, SM420 "Shasta" "Let's Roll" Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:18:20 +1100 From: Simon Jakesch To: Land Cruiser Mailing Subject: Re: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing > Why couldn't use just use a metal barrel? You could attach your power > supply right to the rim, it would completely surround the object and you > would just need to rig the part to suspend from a board across the > top...that or you could devise a wooden or plastic "cage" that could > contain the object and isolate it from contact with the sides. I'm > envisioning a round wooden disk with some vertical pegs that could be > removed or moved closer in as need be. How often would you need to > scrape the barrel or replace it? Hmmmm....as a biz....why not find a > giant stainless vat that the winemakers throw out....wait, wait...aren't > some tanker trucks made of stainless? Now that would be trick, a mobile > part dunker. Put a generator on that bad boy and do it all on site. > You could fit a 40 tub in one of those easily. So could i hook up a whole barrel (or whatever big metal piece i can find) to all of my cruiser and have it treated in one piece? Barry C. McCoin wrote: Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 16:29:57 -0700 Message-ID: <01C4DE0C.532ABC60.atebbs@qwest.net> From: "Alan Tebbs" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing > Mark Whatley wrote: > > But... what you could do... is to get one of those > plastic containment barrels. The ones that are made > to drop leaking 55 gallon drums into for > environmentally safe cleanups. Then you set your > sacrifical metal drum inside of it. Let it "rot away > as an anode and replace it when it is toast. > >Yes? No? I like this idea, but where do you get the plastic container that will fit a 55 gallon drum? Alan Tebbs 6/72 FJ40 (Always under construction) TLCA 10212 http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/adt72fj40/my_photos From: "Mark C. Baker" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 18:51:05 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Alan Tebbs Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 6:30 PM > I like this idea, but where do you get the plastic container that will fit a > 55 gallon drum? Search for "hazmat 55 gallon drum" you will get all kinds of sites that have them. A 55 gal one is $70.00. Mark Baker aka Coolerman !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) From: "Robert Long" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 17:11:18 -0700 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing I'm thinking that a stainless steel container I had made years ago for a client, and have been dragging around might work nice. 24 x 36 x 6 in. deep for allot of parts. How bout old SS sinks? (I used to build restaurants) Bob in CO Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 17:25:03 -0700 From: "Alan Tebbs" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Robert, I think one of the sites Mark linked to said that stainless creates cyanide gas and should never be used. Alan Tebbs 6/72 FJ40 (Always under construction) TLCA 10212 http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/adt72fj40/my_photos From: Steve Adams To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:26:25 -0900 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing In the summer I've seen inflatable kiddie wading pools at Costco that are 72" across and 24" deep for about $30. Would probably pretty touchy to keep from puncturing and impossible to clean out afterwards. But could handle some fairly large items if one were careful and if one didn't actaully have any kids around that would jump in it !!!! From: Robert Furman To: Land Cruiser Mailing Subject: Re: RE: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 20:40:22 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing > From: "Mark C. Baker" > Date: 2004/12/09 Thu PM 06:51:05 EST > > Search for "hazmat 55 gallon drum" you will get all kinds of sites that have > them. A 55 gal one is $70.00. > > Mark Baker aka Coolerman > !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) Or better yet, go check E-bay. i did a quick search there and saw both metal and plastic druns for $15.00 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1267&item=3857203917&rd=1 Robert From: "Mark C. Baker" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: RE: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 21:47:23 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Ah so E-Bay IS good for something! Well I have my test de-ruster up and running. 5 gallon bird seed pail, 3 12" stainless steel scrap pieces all tied together with 12 ga wire. Pieces are arranged 60 degrees apart standing on end in the pail. Power supply is an old 12V 8 amp battery charger with a current meter. Pail contains 4 gallons of HOT water with 4 tablespoons of baking soda (Could not locate the Arm & Hammer soda ash) Current part being de-rusted is a brake wheel cylinder that was rusted up pretty good. When connected to power the cylinder immediately started fizzing which was cool! Notes I have observed playing around with this: 1. The closer the part is to an anode the more current is drawn and the more vigorous the fizzing. 2. You MUST have a good connection to the part! I used a file to get down to good metal. 3. You need to rotate the part every now and then so that each side has a chance to be close to an anode. The ideal solution would be to suspend the part inside a pipe that is just a bit bigger then the part. 4. Too early to tell if solution temp makes a difference. Personal thought is it helps if the water is above ambient temps. Will post some pics tomorrow of the setup and results. Mark Baker aka Coolerman !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 21:56:23 -0500 From: Dave and Mysti Plummer To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing > I thought this subject was pretty cool so surfed around and gathered a lot > of tips from several sources. Here they are for the archives. > http://www.icehouse.net/overland/derusting.html > http://www.bhi.co.uk/hints/rust.htm > > I am going to try my mig welder as a source +20 V @ 105 amps :-)Not all at > once of course! I have infinitely adjustable volts and amps on the welder... I was just wondering today if a DC welder could be used to jump start a vehicle. I don't remember this part of welding class but I guess they step down the voltage in order to get the amps...but how far? Dave From: "Mark C. Baker" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] Speaking of welders and juice Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 22:30:26 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Dave and Mysti Plummer Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 9:56 PM > I was just wondering today if a DC welder could be used to jump start a > vehicle. I don't remember this part of welding class but I guess they step > down the voltage in order to get the amps...but how far? I suppose it could if it can handle the required current, you observe the proper polarity when connected (Remember if you are welding with flux wire the polarity is the reverse of what it is with gas), you have the voltage set correctly. Not worth all the things that can go wrong... :-) Mark Baker aka Coolerman !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 03:33:25 +0000 From: Herb Peyerl To: Land Cruiser Mailing Subject: Re: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing On Thu, Dec 09, 2004 at 02:56:37PM -0600, dmaddox@intranetsinc.com wrote: > What will this do to my neighboors good for nothing low life basset hound? depends how long you hold him under. From: "Drew" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] Speaking of welders and juice Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 01:41:08 -0800 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Dave and Mysti Plummer Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 9:56 PM > I was just wondering today if a DC welder could be used to jump start a > vehicle. I don't remember this part of welding class but I guess they step > down the voltage in order to get the amps...but how far? Hmmm... Im not familiar with how much voltage a welder uses. I mean im not familiar with how they create their power. Do they hook into 120 outlet or a 240? (commonly 110-220) I mean, your gonna pop the circuit breaker at around 17 amps on a wall outlet, same with the 240. I guess if I actually went and read up on how welders actually work I could answer your question but I don't know so... My advice, don't try it. :) Lets see, messing with a welder next to a very explosive large battery. Not a good scene IMO. But if you are crazy enough, heh, I'd start at the lowest amperage you can go! Because you don't want to arc and you sure as hell don't want to create too much heat. Bear in mind 12V car batteries aren't meant to handle more than 12V and like I said, I don't know how much voltage a welder uses, probably not to high a number since that wouldn't be very efficient. Heh goodluck Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 06:28:54 -0500 To: landcruisers@birfield.com From: AJ Huff Subject: Re: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing At 03:24 PM 12/9/2004, you wrote: >From: dmaddox@intranetsinc.com >Subject: Re: [LCML] RE: Electric rust removal >To: "Land Cruiser Mailing" >Message-ID: <18417.148.87.1.171.1102625797.squirrel@148.87.1.171> >Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > >What will this do to my neighboors good for nothing low life basset hound? > >-ragman It will only work if his name is Rusty. AJ Huff TLCA# 4727 66 FJ40 (not running) 87 4 Runner SR5 (held together with paint) Three Rivers, MI From: Herb Peyerl Subject: Re: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 05:44:38 -0700 To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing On Dec 9, 2004, at 11:31 AM, Mark C. Baker wrote: > 15. Also if the part is painted, you will not get much current draw. The > process is mainly used for removing rust, not for removing paint. If you > need to remove paint, try soaking the part in brake fluid if it's a small > part. I keep a coffee can full of old brake fluid for this purpose. Put a > painted part in there overnight and the paint is loose enough to wipe off by > morning. I once had a bezel with some crappy paint on it and wanted to get the paint off. So I brushed some brake fluid on it and left it overnight. Next morning: nothing. So I scuffed it with sand paper a bit, put some more brake fluid on it: nothing. A whole week I left brake fluid on it and nothing. This is a stark contrast to POR-15 where if you have it in the same garage as a vehicle that uses brake fluid, it will peel off and rust. From: Herb Peyerl Subject: Re: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 05:51:21 -0700 To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing On Dec 9, 2004, at 11:30 AM, Floyd Bufkin wrote: > Anybody know where I can get a plastic tub big enough for a whole > cruiser? :-) don't any of your neighbors have a swimming pool? Wait til they go on holidays and then just drive the thing right on in there. You may want to tape up the intake and exhaust or else you'll have to resort to putting shop rags in to floss the thing out... If you leave the tires on, then you can simply put down sheets of expanded steel and drive the truck right onto them. Let us know how that works out for you. Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 07:56:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [LCML] Speaking of welders and juice From: Dave and Mysti Plummer To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing > Im not familiar with how much voltage a welder uses. I mean im not > familiar with how they create their power. Do they hook into 120 outlet > or a 240? (commonly 110-220) I mean, your gonna pop the circuit breaker > at around 17 amps on a wall outlet, same with the 240. I guess if I > actually went and read up on how welders actually work I could answer > your question but I don't know so... My advice, don't try it. :) > > Lets see, messing with a welder next to a very explosive large battery. > Not a good scene IMO. > > But if you are crazy enough, heh, I'd start at the lowest amperage you > can go! Because you don't want to arc and you sure as hell don't want to > create too much heat. Bear in mind 12V car batteries aren't meant to > handle more than 12V and like I said, I don't know how much voltage a > welder uses, probably not to high a number since that wouldn't be very > efficient. > > Heh goodluck Well, I didn't saw I WAS going to try it....just "wondering". ;) Dave From: "Mark C. Baker" To: Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:50:33 -0500 Subject: [LCML] Electric rust removal Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Ok here is the test setup and the results: http://tinyurl.com/5vpa7 be warned! Large pics, not optimized! I'm not super impressed with the speed but that may be due to using baking soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) vs. Soda Ash (Sodium Carbonate) or by using stainless electrodes. Mild steel electrodes seem to work better but foul the water very quickly with scum. I will continue to experiment and let the list know. I am going to attempt a knuckle housing tonight! All comments or suggestions are welcome! Mark Baker aka Coolerman !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) LCML Homepage/Unsubscribe: http://www.birfield.com/mailman/listinfo/landcruisers Host Website: www.birfield.com From: "Steve" To: "Land Cruiser Mailing" Subject: Re: [LCML] Electric rust removal Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 09:59:49 -0800 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Mark, I think I read somewhere that you can't use too much soda (electrolyte?). Maybe that would speed things up. Steve McGavren 71 FJ40 NoPO TLCA# 14294 San Ramon, CA steven4mcg@comcast.net Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 11:16:14 -0700 From: "Alan Tebbs" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] Electric rust removal Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Keep us posted Mark, looks like it worked pretty good. What did you use to attach wire to the piece being cleaned, and does it deteriorate in the solution? Alan Tebbs 6/72 FJ40 (Always under construction) TLCA 10212 http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/adt72fj40/my_photos From: "Mark C. Baker" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] Electric rust removal Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:54:18 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing I used the negative clamp of the battery charger directly on the part. It is steel and rusty so all that has happened so far is it got clean! Mark Baker aka Coolerman !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:04:36 -0900 From: Mark Whatley To: Land Cruiser Mailing Subject: Re: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Herb Peyerl wrote: > > On Dec 9, 2004, at 11:30 AM, Floyd Bufkin wrote: > >> Anybody know where I can get a plastic tub big enough for a whole >> cruiser? :-) >> > don't any of your neighbors have a swimming pool? Wait til they go on > holidays and then just drive the thing right on in there. > > You may want to tape up the intake and exhaust or else you'll have to > resort to putting shop rags in to floss the thing out... > > If you leave the tires on, then you can simply put down sheets of > expanded steel and drive the truck right onto them. > > Let us know how that works out for you. But if you were to take this approach with most '40s, once the proccess was done eating the rust... You'd have to fish wheelbarrow loads of Cruiser parts out of the swimming pool and try to figure out what you would use to hold them all together in a single mass again. ;) Mark... From: "scott urquhart" To: landcruisers@birfield.com Subject: RE: [LCML] Speaking of welders and juice Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:24:47 -0800 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing >From: Dave and Mysti Plummer >Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 21:56:23 -0500 > >I was just wondering today if a DC welder could be used to jump start a >vehicle. I don't remember this part of welding class but I guess they step >down the voltage in order to get the amps...but how far? > > >Dave Yes it can be done. I used to have to use the welder in the logging camp to jump start the tank drills. It is a scary thing to do so I do not recomend it. Scott Urquhart, 72/87 V8J40 TBI, K3 Gixxer 1000 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:56:19 -0800 (PST) From: Ed V Subject: Re: [LCML] Speaking of welders and juice To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing >From: Dave and Mysti Plummer >Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 21:56:23 -0500 > >I was just wondering today if a DC welder could be used to jump start a >vehicle. I don't remember this part of welding class but I guess they step >down the voltage in order to get the amps...but how far? > > >Dave My welder starts vehicles _very_ well (cuz it's a ReadyWelder, powered by two or three group31 batteries! ;) I do not think typical welders (consumer, AC powered) would be a good source to start a vehicle, because I don't think the starter motor is very voltage tolerant. My understanding is that they are not well-regulated voltage sources: the open circuit voltage (while current is not flowing) can be significantly different than the voltage under load (e.g., while welding... or turning a starter motor). They also exhibit voltage spikes during current transitions (when you start/stop welding). How much depends on the design, which can vary wildy (esp in newer welders). OK, since I haven't really helped much, I'll at least share a link that's more useful than me! http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/list.asp -Ed '70FJ40 From: Herb Peyerl Subject: Re: [LCML] Electric rust removal Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:59:24 -0700 To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing On 10-Dec-04, at 10:50 AM, Mark C. Baker wrote: > http://tinyurl.com/5vpa7 be warned! Large pics, not optimized! Rockin'... Wonder what would happen if I threw a whole power steering box into one of them thar buckets.... From: Herb Peyerl Subject: Re: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:00:28 -0700 To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing On 10-Dec-04, at 12:04 PM, Mark Whatley wrote: > But if you were to take this approach with most '40s, once the > proccess was done eating the rust... You'd have to fish wheelbarrow > loads of Cruiser parts out of the swimming pool and try to figure out > what you would use to hold them all together in a single mass again. > ;) > That's a favourite joke of a co-worker of mine... "This truck is just a collection of parts all moving in tight formation, isn't it?" Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:26:17 -0800 From: Mark Subject: Re: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing > That's a favourite joke of a co-worker of mine... "This truck is just a > collection of parts all moving in tight formation, isn't it?" At my work its that a helicopter is a bunch of parts all moving in different directions while flying in close formation. Mark J Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 20:48:37 -0700 From: Floyd Bufkin To: Land Cruiser Mailing Subject: Re: [LCML] Speaking of welders and juice Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing scott urquhart wrote: > Yes it can be done. I used to have to use the welder in the logging > camp to jump start the tank drills. It is a scary thing to do so I do > not recomend it. I remember when I worked at the coal mine, the guys would pre heat engines by clamping arc welder leads to the engine and turning up the juice. It worked fast too. Funny thing is, I never saw one of them do this to his personal vehicle. Floyd Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 23:06:02 -0700 To: Land Cruiser Mailing From: John Subject: Re: [LCML] Speaking of welders and juice Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing 08:48 PM 12/10/04, you wrote: >scott urquhart wrote: > >>Yes it can be done. I used to have to use the welder in the logging camp >>to jump start the tank drills. It is a scary thing to do so I do not >>recomend it. >> >> >I remember when I worked at the coal mine, the guys would pre heat engines >by clamping arc welder leads to the engine and turning up the juice. It >worked fast too. Funny thing is, I never saw one of them do this to his >personal vehicle. > >Floyd Howdy! I wonder if the mine equipment was diesel instead of gas powered. Wouldn't that make it a little more "spark resistant". And, of course, they didn't have to depend on driving the mine equipment home at the end of the shift. 8^} JoHn Bricker 76 FJ-55 Safari Grade all around Phoenix, Az. Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 07:13:51 -0700 From: Floyd Bufkin To: Land Cruiser Mailing Subject: Re: [LCML] Speaking of welders and juice Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing John wrote: > Howdy! I wonder if the mine equipment was diesel instead of gas > powered. Yes, big stuff. D9 and 988 Cats. Stuff like that. Sometimes very hard to start when it is really cold. Floyd Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:09:26 -0700 To: Land Cruiser Mailing From: John Subject: Re: [LCML] Speaking of welders and juice Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing >Yes, big stuff. D9 and 988 Cats. Stuff like that. Sometimes very hard >to start when it is really cold. > >Floyd Howdy! Yup, those might be a tad large to drag around the barn lot with a one-lung John Deere or a multi-fuel Farmalls to get the juices flowing. Seems like my dad could make throttle adjustments from the side of the engine so he didn't have to run back up on top when he was hand-cranking that old rascal. He always kept one tractor parked in the cattle shed in hopes that the heat from the livestock would make it a bit easier to start in the winter time. Landcruiser content: My Piggy still has the hand-crank mounted under the back seat, although it doesn't do much good on a 350 Chevy small block 8^} JoHn Bricker From: "Mark C. Baker" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] Electric rust removal Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:22:40 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing -----Original Message----- From: landcruisers-bounces@birfield.com [mailto:landcruisers-bounces@birfield.com] On Behalf Of Herb Peyerl Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 5:59 PM On 10-Dec-04, at 10:50 AM, Mark C. Baker wrote: >> http://tinyurl.com/5vpa7 be warned! Large pics, not optimized! > > Rockin'... > > Wonder what would happen if I threw a whole power steering box into one > of them thar buckets.... Clean the grease off and throw it in, it will work great! Well after a couple of days of playing around with this. I will say this. CLEAN the part before you put it in the solution! If you don't you end up with an oily scum floating on top. If you don't skim it off then when you remove the part it gets back on it making a mess. I found a restoration site ( http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/andyspatch/rust.htm ) that says high current and high voltage are NOT necessary or wanted. The high currents cause the cathode (the steel you hook the positive to) to deteriorate causing the solution to foul. I emptied out my bucket, made a fresh batch and used 2-7 volts at 250 mA to 500 mA. Not nearly as much fizzing (which is nothing more than the break down of the water into hydrogen and oxygen) but seemed to work just as well and the solution stays mostly CLEAR. I updated the web page with the latest photos of the front hub I did for those interested. http://tinyurl.com/5vpa7 Mark Baker aka Coolerman !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) From: "Steve" To: "Land Cruiser Mailing" Subject: Re: [LCML] Electric rust removal Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:49:24 -0800 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark C. Baker" Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 9:22 AM > Clean the grease off and throw it in, it will work great! > > Well after a couple of days of playing around with this. I will say this. > CLEAN the part before you put it in the solution! If you don't you end up > with an oily scum floating on top. If you don't skim it off then when you > remove the part it gets back on it making a mess. > > I found a restoration site ( http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/andyspatch/rust.htm > ) that says high current and high voltage are NOT necessary or wanted. The > high currents cause the cathode (the steel you hook the positive to) to > deteriorate causing the solution to foul. I emptied out my bucket, made a > fresh batch and used 2-7 volts at 250 mA to 500 mA. Not nearly as much > fizzing (which is nothing more than the break down of the water into > hydrogen and oxygen) but seemed to work just as well and the solution stays > mostly CLEAR. > > I updated the web page with the latest photos of the front hub I did for > those interested. http://tinyurl.com/5vpa7 > > Mark Baker aka Coolerman > !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) Way da go Mark. I'm going to do that as soon as I get my truck apart. As is no surprise to anyone on this list, I started to do a sill replacement and am ending up taking the whole damn thing apart. If I could hide like rust, I'd rob a bank. Steve McGavren 71 FJ40 NoPO TLCA# 14294 San Ramon, CA steven4mcg@comcast.net Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 15:13:50 -0800 From: Mark Subject: Re: [LCML] Speaking of welders and juice To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing > I remember when I worked at the coal mine, the guys would pre heat > engines by clamping arc welder leads to the engine and turning up the > juice. It worked fast too. Funny thing is, I never saw one of them do > this to his personal vehicle. Ya, magnetic cranks and blocks are great for engine longevity. Mark J From: Herb Peyerl Subject: Re: [LCML] Electric rust removal Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 06:01:21 -0700 To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing On Dec 11, 2004, at 10:22 AM, Mark C. Baker wrote: >> Wonder what would happen if I threw a whole power steering box into one >> of them thar buckets.... > > Clean the grease off and throw it in, it will work great! But what will it do to the insides? > Well after a couple of days of playing around with this. I will say this. > CLEAN the part before you put it in the solution! If you don't you end up > with an oily scum floating on top. If you don't skim it off then when you > remove the part it gets back on it making a mess. Put a drop of detergent in to disperse any scunge ? > I updated the web page with the latest photos of the front hub I did for > those interested. http://tinyurl.com/5vpa7 Your ISP/Employer will hate you. :-) I recommend shrinking those pictures to thumbnails _before_ you upload them as thumbnails instead of letting everyone's browser do it. :-) From: "Mark C. Baker" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] Electric rust removal Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 09:05:57 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing If you mean will it harm the insides the answer is no if you block all the ports so the solution cannot get in. That box should be water proof if the ports are sealed.=20 Detergent would probably work also. I don't think it would mess up the electron flow through the solution. I'll try that today to see the results. As for the web page: I am not a web designer (as must be obvious) What do you mean about the thumbnails? They are currently 256 x 192. Should I make them smaller than that? What did you mean about letting the browser do it? If you click on the pics it does link to the full size pics which are 1600 x 1200. I guess I should also shrink those down? Size? I use Dream Weaver to make this stuff... I'd appreciate any insight on this as I'm just starting to learn... Mark Baker aka Coolerman !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) From: "Mark C. Baker" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] Electric rust removal Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 09:37:24 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Never mind Herb I figured out what you meant! You are suggesting creating the thumbnails as separate images then linking to them instead of letting the browser 'create' the image from the main image. Working on it now... Mark Baker aka Coolerman !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 07:53:25 -0800 From: Steve Broyles To: Land Cruiser Mailing Subject: Re: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Anyone tried using SS aircraft cable instead of chunks of SS? Seems that you could loop it around the bucket/container pretty easily. Just thinking here... -- Steve Broyles, Playa Tamarindo, Costa Rica '84 FJ60 "Sandy"- http://www.sandcruiser.com/ride.html '73 FJ40 "Bubba" only mod is a 12v fan on the dashboard. Came with an H41 '88 HJ60 " " stock w/ H41 www.Sandcruiser.com From: "Mark C. Baker" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] Electrolytic Rust Removal? Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:17:46 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Steve Broyles Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 10:53 AM > Anyone tried using SS aircraft cable instead of chunks of SS? > > Seems that you could loop it around the bucket/container pretty easily. > > Just thinking here... The stainless wire rope should work perfectly. That's actually a great idea as you could wrap it around and through parts! It does not matter what shape it is as long as it does not make contact with the part. I used stainless rods to de-rust the INSIDE of the drag link and relay rods. They were terribly rusted on the inside. I made up plastic insulators that fit in the ends of the rods then drilled holes in those and passed the rods through them. These were then immersed in the tank and left for two days. It worked great! I also did one of my knuckles night before last and have the other one in there today. I'll post up some pics of those this weekend. Mark Baker aka Coolerman !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) From: "Mark C. Baker" To: Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 15:19:56 -0500 Subject: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing For those interested I did a complete set of FJ40 knuckles and all the drag links and relay rods in the de-ruster over the weekend. Being cast with lots of casting flash and that good paint Toyota used they took about twice as long to do but the results were worth it. They look like they were just removed from the casting mold!=20 http://tinyurl.com/5vpa7 The knuckle and relay rod pics are at the very bottom. My final conclusion? This process works! I have set up a permanent tank in the basement to do the rest of the parts as I get this rig back on the road. Mark Baker aka Coolerman !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) From: "Steve" To: "Land Cruiser Mailing" Subject: Re: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:41:36 -0800 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark C. Baker" Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 12:19 PM > For those interested I did a complete set of FJ40 knuckles and all the drag > links and relay rods in the de-ruster over the weekend. Being cast with lots > of casting flash and that good paint Toyota used they took about twice as > long to do but the results were worth it. They look like they were just > removed from the casting mold!=20 > > http://tinyurl.com/5vpa7 The knuckle and relay rod pics are at the very > bottom. > > My final conclusion? This process works! I have set up a permanent tank in > the basement to do the rest of the parts as I get this rig back on the road. Thanks for your documentation Mark. Nice job. I will use it when I set mine up after the holidays. I'm thinking the best way to attack those parts of the tub that I can't remove might be some kind of paint-on jelly-like stuff. Maybe "RemovAll?" (can't seem to find a local place that sells it) Any recommendations? Steve McGavren 71 FJ40 NoPO TLCA# 14294 San Ramon, CA steven4mcg@comcast.net From: "Briggs Evans" <78fj@comcast.net> To: "Land Cruiser Mailing" Subject: RE: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 16:54:27 -0600 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing -----Original Message----- From: landcruisers-bounces@birfield.com [mailto:landcruisers-bounces@birfield.com]On Behalf Of Steve Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 4:42 PM > Thanks for your documentation Mark. Nice job. I will use it when I set > mine up after the holidays. > > I'm thinking the best way to attack those parts of the tub that I > can't remove might be some kind of paint-on jelly-like stuff. Maybe > "RemovAll?" (can't seem to find a local place that sells it) Any > recommendations? Lets say you have fairly rusty floor boards in a 40. Could you just seal up the drains in the floor boards, fill the tub with the solution, toss in the electrode and let it rip? Once the area is clean, just open the drains and let the solution out. Briggs Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 17:12:45 -0600 From: Charles Horton To: landcruisers@birfield.com Subject: Re: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing > My final conclusion? This process works! I have set up a permanent tank in > the basement to do the rest of the parts as I get this rig back on the road. Doesn't the electric de-rust process generate hydrogen? Charles '73 FJ40 some assembly required From: "Michael D. Smith" To: Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:14:21 -0600 Subject: [LCML] RE: Electric Rust Removal Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 16:54:27 -0600 From: "Briggs Evans" <78fj@comcast.net> > > Lets say you have fairly rusty floor boards in a 40. Could you just seal up > the drains in the floor boards, fill the tub with the solution, toss in the > electrode and let it rip? Once the area is clean, just open the drains and > let the solution out. > > Briggs It might be more work than it's worth to do that. Plus you might get solution in places that will be difficult to rinse out. Naval jelly should work OK for the floors, I used it on mine. Do it in stages. It will leave a black phosphate coating which you should probably scrape off, then do it again (the phosphate will stop the reaction and prevent you from getting all the rust, better to do it a few times and abrade the material in between. I also liked how a good scotch-brite wheel on a drill worked to get rust off. The aggressive black wheels work great. Naval jelly works great for light rust and leaves an iron phosphate coating on it after, which is a good paint prep. Heavy rusts you'll have to do a few times. Rinse really well the last time and leave the blue coating it leaves on before priming / painting. It's easy and fast, and leaves behind somewhat of a rust barrier too. Mike S '80 FJ40. From: "Mark C. Baker" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:06:06 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Steve Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 5:42 PM Subject: Re: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal > Thanks for your documentation Mark. Nice job. I will use it when I set mine > up after the holidays. > > I'm thinking the best way to attack those parts of the tub that I can't > remove might be some kind of paint-on jelly-like stuff. Maybe "RemovAll?" > (can't seem to find a local place that sells it) Any recommendations? If possible I would rent or buy a sand blaster to get the rust off. I don't think that removal stuff works very well at all. At the minimum I would use Rust Bullet or some other rust converter to prep then paint. Mark Baker aka Coolerman !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) From: "Mark C. Baker" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:09:57 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Charles Horton Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 6:13 PM Subject: Re: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal > > My final conclusion? This process works! I have set up a permanent=20 > > tank in the basement to do the rest of the parts as I get this rig=20 > > back on the road. > > Doesn't the electric de-rust process generate hydrogen? > > Charles Yes and Oxygen too. For those worried about explosions I took a lighter and held it above the tank while it was working. I expected the lighter to flare up or sputter but it did neither. I still don't understand why not. If you still worry about it set it outside or figure out a way to capture it, compress it and burn it in the cruiser! Mark Baker aka Coolerman !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) From: "Mark C. Baker" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:15:29 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Original Message On Behalf Of Briggs Evans Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 5:54 PM Subject: RE: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal > Lets say you have fairly rusty floor boards in a 40. Could you just seal up > the drains in the floor boards, fill the tub with the solution, toss in the > electrode and let it rip? Once the area is clean, just open the drains and > let the solution out. > > Briggs That would actually work. :-) I would use stainless steel screen with insulated feet cut to the size of the area to be de-rusted. The screen would need to be 1/4" - 1/2" above the floor and mounted on insulating feet. Connect + to the screen and - to the floor. Pre-mix up a 5 gallon bucket of 1 tablespoon soda ash to 1 gallon of water and pour it in. Let work for couple of days. Drain. Rinse/scrub with soapy water to stop the reaction. Blow dry with hot air then wire brush the loose rust off. You should have clean bare metal. Mark Baker aka Coolerman !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:31:22 -0500 From: Bill McCabe Subject: RE: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing On 12/21/04 at 9:09 AM, coolerman@qx.net (Mark C. Baker) wrote: > Yes and Oxygen too. For those worried about explosions I took a lighter and > held it above the tank while it was working. I expected the lighter to > flare up or sputter but it did neither. I still don't understand why not. If > you still worry about it set it outside or figure out a way to capture it, > compress it and burn it in the cruiser! > > Mark Baker aka Coolerman > !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) The production of oxygen and hydrogen through electrolysis of the water is incidental and in relatively small amounts. Also, hydrogen is much lighter than air so it's going to rise and dissapate very quickly. I'm not sure I'd want to do a lot of this in an unventilated space, but otherwise I don't think there's much to worry about. As always, prudence and caution are the best bywords--no use turning a hobby into a tragedy. If course if you like your fun to end with "Hey guys, watch this!" then you could seal a big garbage bag over the top of your vat and then put a lighter to it after it fills up. Bill Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:39:40 -0500 From: Bill McCabe Subject: Re: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing On 12/20/04 at 3:19 PM, coolerman@qx.net (Mark C. Baker) wrote: > For those interested I did a complete set of FJ40 knuckles and all the drag > links and relay rods in the de-ruster over the weekend. Being cast with lots > of casting flash and that good paint Toyota used they took about twice as > long to do but the results were worth it. They look like they were just > removed from the casting mold! > > http://tinyurl.com/5vpa7 The knuckle and relay rod pics are at the very > bottom. > > My final conclusion? This process works! I have set up a permanent tank in > the basement to do the rest of the parts as I get this rig back on the road. > > > Mark Baker aka Coolerman > !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) Thanks for the picks Mark. I zapped all my steering components last spring, Zero Rusted them, and they look like new. I haven't done my hubs though. Yours came out real nice. I've swapped my very rusty old FJ62 axles out recently, so I'm going to do the diff/axle housings this winter--pull the hubs and brakes off, shove rubber stoppers in the ends, plug the breather, keep the pinion out of the water, should be like new in no time. Bill Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 07:00:06 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Hassi Subject: RE: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal To: landcruisers@birfield.com Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Mark - I sure hope that the top tie rod or drag link in your pictures is going to the scrap heap.... Would not take much to shear it the way it is now. I suppose you could sleeve it, but at the cost of a new OEM or custom unit, it just isn't worth it. Jim From: Herb Peyerl Subject: Re: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 08:09:17 -0700 To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing On Dec 21, 2004, at 7:09 AM, Mark C. Baker wrote: > Yes and Oxygen too. For those worried about explosions I took a lighter and > held it above the tank while it was working. I expected the lighter to > flare up or sputter but it did neither. I still don't understand why not. If > you still worry about it set it outside or figure out a way to capture it, > compress it and burn it in the cruiser! Yeah... I'm guessing the "hydrogen gas" warnings are overblown unless you're really going crazy on it... As you say, if you only use a few hundred mA of power, then I'm guessing the amount of hydrogen produced is several orders of magnitude below what is already present in the atmosphere... I'm sure one of the resident chemists can convert current to amount of hydrogen production for us and give us an idea what the real quantity of H is per 100mA... hmm... according to this site: http://www.nmsea.org/Curriculum/7_12/electrolysis/electrolysis.htm If you follow Faraday's law, at sea level, and 200mA of power, at room temperature, then in one hour, you will generate .00009 M^3 (cubic metres) of hydrogen in one hour. Or .0024 cubic feet of hydrogen per hour for you merkans. That's 4.2 cubic inches of hydrogen per hour. I spose that amount of hydrogen, when contained in a shoebox, and lit with a match could generate a little bit of a all of the above is pure conjecture from my perspective. Any professional physicists/chemists should come in here and make a fool of me... From: "Mark C. Baker" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 10:38:59 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Original Message On Behalf Of Jim Hassi Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 10:00 AM Subject: RE: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal > Mark - > > I sure hope that the top tie rod or drag link in your pictures is going to > the scrap heap.... Would not take much to shear it the way it is now. I > suppose you could sleeve it, but at the cost of a new OEM or custom unit, it > just isn't worth it. > > Jim Jim I noticed that myself which is one of the reasons I decided to de-rust the inside as well as the outside. For some reason all the rods were mounted slot up which allowed water to sit in them. I will mount them slot down so water will drain out. Might be something everyone should check on their own cruisers. Crap now you got me worried about that. That is the drag link that goes from the pitman arm off the steering box to the center arm. It would be subject to mostly compression and stretching loads. I guess I could sleeve it until I get my power steering project started. Someone got a 2/71 era draglink in the junk pile cheap?=20 Mark Baker aka Coolerman !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 10:52:45 -0500 From: Bill McCabe Subject: Re: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing On 12/21/04 at 8:09 AM, hpeyerl@beer.org (Herb Peyerl) wrote: > > http://www.nmsea.org/Curriculum/7_12/electrolysis/electrolysis.htm > Couple of interesting points on this page for our purposes: -can some kind of carbon fiber sheet be used as the anode instead of (stainless) steel? -after you're all done derusting your parts, just though in some zinc salts (galvanize frame parts), or nickel salts to plate them (like bolts, etc), or chromium salts (chrome tub anyone?). Bill From: "Steve" To: "Land Cruiser Mailing" Subject: Re: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 08:05:17 -0800 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill McCabe" Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 7:52 AM > On 12/21/04 at 8:09 AM, hpeyerl@beer.org (Herb Peyerl) wrote: >> >> >> http://www.nmsea.org/Curriculum/7_12/electrolysis/electrolysis.htm >> > > Couple of interesting points on this page for our purposes: > > -can some kind of carbon fiber sheet be used as the anode instead of > (stainless) > steel? > > -after you're all done derusting your parts, just though in some zinc salts > (galvanize frame parts), or nickel salts to plate them (like bolts, etc), or > chromium salts (chrome tub anyone?). > > Bill Are you saying that after de-rusting we could clean the water, reverse the electrodes, put in (element) salts and do our own plating? Steve McGavren 71 FJ40 NoPO TLCA# 14294 San Ramon, CA steven4mcg@comcast.net From: "Mark C. Baker" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 11:06:55 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill McCabe" Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 7:52 AM > On 12/21/04 at 8:09 AM, hpeyerl@beer.org (Herb Peyerl) wrote: >> >> >> http://www.nmsea.org/Curriculum/7_12/electrolysis/electrolysis.htm >> > > Couple of interesting points on this page for our purposes: > > -can some kind of carbon fiber sheet be used as the anode instead of > (stainless) > steel? > > -after you're all done derusting your parts, just though in some zinc salts > (galvanize frame parts), or nickel salts to plate them (like bolts, etc), or > chromium salts (chrome tub anyone?). > > Bill Yep there is a guy already doing it. It's expensive but seems to work = great. He has had a problem getting the edges sealed. It wants to delaminate = after a while. http://www.hobartwelders.com/mboard/showthread.php?t=3D1976&page=3D1&pp=3D= 15=20 I have looked into the kits offered by EastWood and others. I was = wanting to do home plating but the disposal issue can be a nightmare.=20 Mark Baker aka Coolerman !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:03:22 -0500 From: Ken Subject: RE: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal To: "Land Cruiser Mailing" Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Mark C. Baker wrote on 12/21/2004, 11:06 AM: > -can some kind of carbon fiber sheet be used as the anode instead of > (stainless) steel? According to this article, using stainless steel creates a very nasty hazmat called Hexavent Chromium that is POISONOUS and will give you nasty diseases, and it is absorbed through your skin. http://shopfloortalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1695 I think I will avoid Stainless when I try this.. but this guy has some good ideas on carbon..Thanks to Mark for the original link that led me to this one. And for all the other info as well. Ken Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 10:11:34 -0800 (PST) From: Stan Michael Subject: RE: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing --- "Mark C. Baker" wrote: > For those worried about explosions I took a lighter and > held it above the tank while it was working. Reminds me of the old joke: "What are the famous last words of a redneck? Here, watch this!" :-D Seriously, your electrolysis work is very well done and well documented. Thanks for sharing it all with us. Stan ===== -------------- I am the wretch that song talks about... Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 10:15:59 -0800 (PST) From: Stan Michael Subject: RE: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal To: Land Cruiser Mailing Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing --- Bill McCabe wrote: > if you like your fun to end with > "Hey guys, watch this!" then you could seal a big garbage bag over the top of > your vat and then put a lighter to it after it fills up. Arrgh, Bill already beat me to it! Stan ===== -------------- I am the wretch that song talks about... From: "Mark C. Baker" To: "'Land Cruiser Mailing'" Subject: RE: [LCML] Electric Rust Removal Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:29:54 -0500 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Original Message On Behalf Of Stan Michael Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 1:12 PM > --- "Mark C. Baker" wrote: >> For those worried about explosions I took a lighter and >> held it above the tank while it was working. > > Reminds me of the old joke: > > "What are the famous last words of a redneck? Here, watch this!" > > :-D > > Seriously, your electrolysis work is very well done and well documented. > Thanks for sharing it all with us. > > Stan Hahaha! Believe me, I did this outside after stopping the process in the bucket for a few minutes. I then started it and lit the lighter before anything could accumulate to explosive levels. Here is what a true redneck would try: Hmmm, "I think I will try the bag over the bucket trick. Then rig up a spark plug to ignite the contents of the bag remotely." yeah get the wife to help... "Here honey, hold this button. Now don't press it until I'm away from the bag" Wife smiling remembering the large insurance policy.... Large explosion, cops, fire truck... Wife talking to fireman, " He said push the button as soon as he got close to that bucket! So I did..." I figure that with the small tanks I'm using the hydrogen will of course float up into the house above the garage and the oxygen will stay down where I'm at making the garage atmosphere healthier. Right? :-) Mark Baker aka Coolerman !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) From: "Mark C. Baker" To: Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 08:44:17 -0400 Subject: [LCML] Yet another De-rusting thread Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Yeah I know we beat this one to death but I have new information. :-) Taking the advice of the list I went to a pool supply store and purchased a 6 lb container of pure sodium carbonate ($8.95) Made by Regal and called pH Plus. I then did a quick comparison test to see if there was really a difference between baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) and soda wash (sodium carbonate). Conclusion: There is no doubt, get the soda wash! Hands down a winner in the test. I then completely updated my de-rusting web page concerning the de-rust process to reflect the new findings. Scroll down to the updated test section and look at the pics.=20 http://tinyurl.com/5vpa7=20 (WJ: http://www.globalsoftware-inc.com/coolerman/fj40/rustremoval.htm) Mark Baker aka Coolerman !Oy my 2/71 FJ40 (not road legal yet) http://tinyurl.com/47zpb (My FJ site) From: Russ Kepler To: Land Cruiser Mailing Subject: Re: [LCML] Yet another De-rusting thread Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:38:57 -0600 Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing On Thursday 19 May 2005 06:44 am, Mark C. Baker wrote: > Conclusion: There is no doubt, get the soda wash! Hands down a winner in > the test. A little TSP wouldn't hurt, particuarly on parts that are a bit greasy. Not the fake TSP stuff but the real stuff (there are boxes of stuff with the title "TSP" at the big stores that don't contain trisodiumphosphate, get the real stuff with trisodiumphosphate in the ingredients list). I think the biggest difference between the carbonate and bicarbonate is in this sort of cleaning action. > I then completely updated my de-rusting web page concerning the de-rust > process to reflect the new findings. Scroll down to the updated test > section and look at the pics. > > http://tinyurl.com/5vpa7 Nice work. I like the before & after images. A couple of comments: stainless wire is available cheaply from industrial suppliers for a lot less than the "vanity" suppliers. Try McMaster-Carr or MSC (I prefer the former, no minimum and a lot better on shipping). McMaster-Carr: http://www.mcmaster.com MSC: http://www.mscdirect.com I'd suggest a 316L wire, very low corrosion, strong, and make a decent fill wire when you're welding. At the same time you might get some steel alligator clips. The point of avoiding copper or copper plate is that the derusting bath will actually plate the metal over - so any wire or exposed copper will move in the bath. The only problem is that it won't stick, so it just comes out as ugly black slimy copper oxide. Finally I'd mention that you have to hit the metal with oil to keep it from rusting immediately after being taken from the bath. There are special oils made for this purpose, but I'd get something like Boeshield or LPS-3 and use it as it'll give better long term protection. Finally: why on earth did you save those running board support brackets? I thought I was bad about never tossing things but those would not have lived on my shop floor for more than about 30 seconds....