From: "kwhitlow" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80] AC not cold enough Date sent: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:43:25 -0400 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Has anyone tried "Freeze 12"? http://www.technicalchemical.com/tipframe.htm Keith Whitlow kwhitlow@roava.net Roanoke, VA. '77 FJ-40 OME From: "Keith Whitlow" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80] AC not cold enough Date sent: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 17:39:26 -0400 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com How is this http://www.prelube.com/page6.html for an idea!!!! Be afraid, very afraid! Keith Whitlow kwhitlow@roava.net 77 FJ-40 OME, ARB, SSR's, HEI Date sent: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 12:55:46 +1100 From: malcolm scoggins Organization: Oracle Corporation To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Subject: Re: [80] AC not cold enough Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Keith Whitlow wrote: > How is this http://www.prelube.com/page6.html for an idea!!!! > Be afraid, very afraid! > Keith Whitlow > kwhitlow@roava.net > 77 FJ-40 OME, ARB, SSR's, HEI Propane for aircon fluid! What a great idea! You could also put a tap in the hose inside the car and boil a billy while you're driving along! As you rightly say, "be afraid"!!! Regards, Mal Sydney From: "Norm Needham" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80] Re: AC not cold enough (CHAT) Date sent: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:49:16 +1000 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com From: Chris Nicholls > > Now _this_ I like. You could recharge the flame-thrower with liquid > propane.... hmmm... Excellent. > > I particularly like the comment "...The only real disadvantage is > flammability..." . Kind of a significant one don't you think > Mr.Young????? Notwithstanding your jovial attitude, I'm sure you would be surprised at the number of vehicles (illegally) running about with LPG as a refrigerant. The use of LPG for this purpose is common in commercial refrigeration and air conditioning. It is much more efficient than R134A or even R12. It just ain't legal in motor cars (in Oz). The manufacturers of "Autofridge" would love to utilise it, and can do so, but again, not if the fridge is to be used in a car. ;-( Cheers * Norm Needham * * Traction4 / ARB Northside * Sydney, Australia * Trac4@bigpond.com Trac4@telstra.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Date sent: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:49:31 +0100 Subject: [80] LPG instead of R12 (was: AC not cold enough (CHAT) Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com On 19 Jun 00 at 21:49, Norm Needham wrote: > From: Chris Nicholls > > > > > Now _this_ I like. You could recharge the flame-thrower with liquid > > propane.... hmmm... Excellent. > > > > I particularly like the comment "...The only real disadvantage is > > flammability..." . Kind of a significant one don't you think > Mr.Young????? > > > Notwithstanding your jovial attitude, I'm sure you would be surprised at > the number of vehicles (illegally) running about with LPG as a > refrigerant. > The use of LPG for this purpose is common in commercial refrigeration > and air conditioning. It is much more efficient than R134A or even R12. > It just ain't legal in motor cars (in Oz). The manufacturers of > "Autofridge" would love to utilise it, and can do so, but again, not if > the fridge is to be used in a car. ;-( Norm, do you know what the technical requirements are for a proper LPG conversion? Any DIY sites on the net? Does it require the same thorough removal of the last oil particle as with an R12->R134 conversion? Just theoretically speaking of course....;-)) (at least LPG isn't toxic, like R134 is!) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] From: "Norm Needham" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80] LPG instead of R12 (was: AC not cold enough (CHAT) Date sent: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:38:00 +1000 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com From: Willem-Jan Markerink > Norm, do you know what the technical requirements are for a proper > LPG conversion? > Any DIY sites on the net? > Does it require the same thorough removal of the last oil particle as > with an R12->R134 conversion? > Just theoretically speaking of course....;-)) Sorry WJ; no. Somebody on the list must be in the AC business? Anybody? NN From: "Keith Whitlow" To: Subject: Re: [80] LPG instead of R12 (was: AC not cold enough (CHAT) Date sent: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:20:48 -0400 > Norm, do you know what the technical requirements are for a proper > LPG conversion? > Any DIY sites on the net? > Does it require the same thorough removal of the last oil particle as > with an R12->R134 conversion? > Just theoretically speaking of course....;-)) > > (at least LPG isn't toxic, like R134 is!) > > -- > Bye, > > Willem-Jan Markerink Here is the original site http://www.prelube.com/page6.html There is some info on how to make an adapter Keith Whitlow kwhitlow@roava.net 77 FJ-40 OME, ARB, SSR's, HEI, Mini Truck P/S http://www.prelube.com/page6.html -> http://www.prelube.com/articals.html#freon xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Freon (CFC's) and the Ozone Layer Owners of air conditioned classic cars designed to use R-12 refrigerant are having a tough time keeping their cool these days. The price of R-12 is approaching $25 a pound and converting older A\C systems to use the new R-134a refrigerant can be prohibitively expensive. So we're left with a choice of taking a hard hit in the wallet or sweltering in the heat. What's all the fuss about R-12? Are we really in danger of increased ultraviolet radiation due to ozone layer damage from CFC's? The government mandated phase-out of CFC refrigerants is based on this theory but much of the information in circulation on this subject is quite misleading and some of it is just flat wrong. First off, what is the ozone layer and how is it supposedly damaged by CFC's? Ozone is made of 3 atoms of oxygen that have joined up to form a molecule. (O3) In the stratosphere, molecules of ordinary oxygen (O2) absorb photons of ultraviolet light from the sun and are converted to ozone. Ozone strongly absorbs UV light and protects living things below on the surface from damage. The ozone layer is formed and maintained by the sun. The important thing to grasp is that the sun produces ozone. If, by some magic, ALL the ozone were to disappear NOW...a new ozone layer would be formed by the sun's action on atmospheric O2 in a matter of days. How do CFC's damage the ozone layer? Let's take a look at how the damage is done. Chlorine monoxide is the culprit. A single molecule of chlorine monoxide can split tens of thousands of ozone molecules. This much is absolutely true. It's where the chlorine monoxide comes from that is the subject of controversy. How do CFC's which are many times heavier than air get high into the stratosphere in the first place? The plain truth is...most of it doesn't! When CFC's are released into the air, they immediately seek the lowest level available and stay there for the most part. Since CFC's are extremely stable, they remain in their non-toxic, non-ozone damaging form for a very long time. The only possible way for such a heavy molecule to ever reach the stratosphere is to be carried aloft on a violent updraft such as occurs in thunderstorms. The few CFC molecules that actually do reach the ozone layer account for a very small percentage of all the chlorine monoxide found in the stratosphere. So where does the rest come from? There are several sources and we'll look at them one at a time. VOLCANOS: Volcanos account for about 30% of atmospheric chlorine monoxide. The Mt. Pinatubo eruption in the early 90's released vast quantities of chlorine monoxide into the atmosphere, probably more than that contained in all the CFC's manufactured to that date. SEAWATER: The sea covers about 70 percent of Earth's surface. Seawater contains sodium chloride - common salt. The wave action from all the world's coastlines produces a very fine spray. Some of the very tiny spray droplets evaporate leaving crystals of salt suspended in the air. The really small ones can float in the atmosphere for decades and, eventually, reach the upper atmosphere. Here, water vapor condenses on the salt crystals to form tiny salt water droplets. Exposed to UV light, they split to become atoms of chlorine and sodium. The chlorine atoms pick up oxygen atoms from the atmosphere and are converted into chlorine monoxide. Each chlorine monoxide molecule can destroy thousands of ozone molecules. Volcanos erupt from time to time but the sea never sleeps. Chlorine monoxide from seawater probably accounts for about 70 percent of that found in the stratosphere. SPACE SHUTTLE LAUNCHES: Volcanos and seawater account for the vast majority of chlorine monoxide found in the stratosphere, but there are other contributors as well. The space shuttle's main engines burn liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen. The exhaust product is mainly water and has no detrimental effect on the ozone layer, but the boosters are a different story. The solid fuel boosters belch out vast quantities of chlorine compounds and they bore directly through the stratosphere with every launch and so deliver the nasty stuff right where it will do the most harm. The space shuttle program probably does more to damage the ozone layer than all the leaking air conditioners in the country but we (the users of CFC refrigerants) are the ones who get the blame and have to pay the price. It just ain't fair. SO WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT? There are several R-12 substitutes available, the most common is a mixture of 60% iso-butane and 40% propane. It is compatible with all mineral based compressor oils and can be mixed with R-12 in any combination. This substitute (commonly known as Hot Shot) works well in systems designed for R-12 but is quite flammable and could present a fire hazard in the event of a head-on collision. Use of a flammable R-12 substitute could also present a hazard for service personal using R-12 recovery equipment. Also, it may be illegal in some states. Anyone considering the use of a flammable substitute should be aware of the danger involved and clearly mark any system containing a flammable substance to warn A\C service personal that may need to work on the vehicle in the future. Personally, I have been using pure propane as an R-12 substitute for over 15 years with excellent results. Pure propane runs about 20 degrees colder in the evaporator and about 40 degrees hotter in the condenser. Also pressures on both the high side and low side run a bit higher. Typically, the low side pressure will be about 50 psi and high side pressure will run at about 300 psi depending on outside air temperature. I have had some reports of newer rotary compressors failing in service while using propane. The plastic vanes can't take the higher temperatures and melt. Running these compressors about 1\2 to 1 pound low seems to solve the heat problem. Older piston type compressors use metal reed valves and have no problem with the additional heat. Propane (common torch gas) is cheap, convenient, and available everywhere. A modified propane torch can be used to charge propane into an A\C system. (See illustration) Propane can only be used in systems designed for R-12. Propane cannot be used in systems designed for R-22 or R-134a No inexperienced person ever should attempt repairs on any air conditioning system. If in doubt, please seek the help of a qualified professional. The bottom line is R-12 substitutes do work and for the classic car collector experienced in A\C repairs, it could be a viable option. John Young http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:9nNn3GNOPekJ: www.austech.info/archive/index.php/t-68598.html+propane+AC+or+airco+OR+airconditioning&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=20 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ev351 23-02-2004, 08:00 PM No one will ever be able to stop backyarders from charging AC systems, as long as you can still get your BBQ gaas cylinder filled with propane at the service station anyway. I've had a number of cars in for service only to find the systems charged with propane. Sure, its flammable, but I just had to try it, and when done in a good working system it works fine, and will pull (in my opinion) lower temps than r134 on the same system. Just remember it ILLEGAL in Oz and could be quite dangerous if you do it wrong. But just the same, restricting supply of refrigerant will not deter any shady operator..... http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:JHPY9QglX3UJ: www.comfortcoolingservicessl.com/airconditioning.html+propane+AC+or+airco+OR+airconditioning&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=27 xxxxxxxxxx propane: or R290, although a naturally occurring substance that can be used as a refrigerant it is also a highly flammable gas and must be carefully used. http://autoacforum.com/messagepost.cfm?postaction=reply&catid=2&threadid=9551&messid=45166&STARTPAGE=1&ezquote=y&parentid=45166 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx R-22 is still sold by the cans, HC's have even much lower operating pressure than R-12 or R-134a so not sure how they will perform in an old R-22 system. If you care to play with it, let us know. Reply Quote Top Bottom bohica2xo Senior Member Posts: 1901 Joined: Apr 2002 Mon April 19, 2004 4:58 PM User is offline I have used HC's in industrial chillers for years, with great results. R290 is so close to R22 on the P/T curves that it is a "drop in" replacement. I have no problem with HC's in a well ventilated shop. BUT A cooler is most probably located in or near a KITCHEN, with one or more sources of ignition. It would be foolish to merely charge a system that is KNOWN TO LEAK, and place it in this environment. In europe, and Canada, they charge small refrigerators from the factory with HC's. Most refrigerators still hold the original charge when the motor fails, or some other failure causes the owner to discard the unit. Here is a link to the recomendations for HC use in enclosed spaces. There is a room volume to HC volume that is considered safe: HC recomendations This is a PDF file, and has alot of information. Use HC's wisely, and they will be fine. Please fix the leak before you go foreward with this conversion. ------------------------- "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. Reply Quote Top Bottom Anonymous Anonymous User Posts: 3272 Joined: Jul 2002 Tue April 20, 2004 9:07 PM User is offline The leaks been fixed, it was a bad O ring on one of the connections, so I just replaced all of them to be safe, and according to that link I am more than fine with fine with room volume. And while I was in there I noticed a sticker hidden on the far side of the compressor housing that says "This compressor charged with ALKYLBENZENE oil", would this type of oil be compatible with HCs(another name for PAG or POE perhaps?), or should I pull and drain the compressor and add some different oil? bohica2xo You mentioned you use r-290 as a drop in replacement for r-22; the stuff I have is a 50/50 mixture of r-290 and r-600, do you think it would still work? I'm guessing at a proper charge it still would, but as to what temp it would reach, I'm not sure. Also, is the Liquid Propane that you get in bottles r-290 or is it r-290a, what I'm getting at is, would it work as a refrigerant(ignoring possible impurities), if the 50/50 mix doesn't work? Reply Quote Top Bottom bohica2xo Senior Member Posts: 1901 Joined: Apr 2002 Wed April 21, 2004 3:25 AM User is offline Ok! You have the leaks fixed, and you have a safe room volume ratio. Sounds like a good HC application. I wish more people would take the time to look at that link before charging ahead. The blend you have was mixed as a r12 replacement, and would not work well in your application. R290 is available commercially in 50lb cylinders - too much for what you want to do. Envirosafe sold R290 marked as ES22a, I don't know if they still do. Propane. Technically R290 is propane, but the purity of BBQ fuel tends to be less than what you need. In some areas, fuel "propane" is blended with isobutane to keep cylinder pressure down. Some people have reported sucess with the following method: Use "throwaway" propane cylinders. Attach a torch to a new cylinder, and burn the light gas (ethanes) off from the cylinder - 5 minutes should do the trick. Charge as a gas from this cylinder to leave behind any oils and other impurities. I believe Glenn T has done this before, perhaps he will join this thread. Personally, I would not take the chance. I buy R290 as refrigerant, and use it that way. I recover to a BBQ tank, and "recycle" it by burning it in my infra-red heater, outdoors - NOT my cooking appliances! AB oils. R290 is a really slutty refrigerant - it will mix with virtually anything, and works fine with AB oils. Good luck with your conversion ------------------------- "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. Reply Quote Top Bottom GlennT Senior Member Posts: 319 Joined: Apr 2002 Wed April 21, 2004 4:37 PM User is offline I used to burn a Benzomatic torch for 5 minutes when I needed an ounce or two to boost HC blends. I would be cautious about propane purity like coleman and benzomatic torchs to replace the entire charge in a stationary application. Envirosafe ES22 is still available and more purer than anything used as a fuel. Four 6oz cans was selling for $45 bucks at http://befreetech.com/envirosafe.htm, do a google search to find other dealers or call the Envirosafe corp for a local dealer if you do not mind meeting one who works out of his van and asks to meet you in a Taco Bell parking lot. One thing I would look out for in this conversion is sources of ignition inside the unit like a contactor/relay. Although the entire charge in the system may be below the Lower Flamibility Limit of the room volume, there may be a relay or motor close to a connection that could ignite a higher concentration from a leak. It may not leak today but years from now things will wear out. Good luck, keep us posted. Reply Quote Top Bottom Zolar1 Junior Member Posts: 28 Joined: Nov 2002 Sun April 25, 2004 10:57 PM User is offline View users profile Ah, sounds like "DuraCool 22a". Regarding the compressor issue: The compressor is rated as a Medium Tempperature R22 compressor which usually means you would have an evaporator temperature of around +25deg F . The compressor as you stated has AB oil, which is a synthetic lubricant for use with most clorinated refrigerants. R134a has trouble returning the oil to the compressor, but can be used if the evaporator is on top and the compressor is underneath the unit. In my next post, I'll explain how I changed a POE oil refrigerator compressor to a Mineral oil compressor. Also, Propane is 'mixable' with R22, although by EPA standards, it's illegal to mix refrigerants. ------------------------- Creator of: http://groups.msn.com/afirsttimecomputeruser I have both a universal refrigerant license and an automotive license.