ROM: "little_joe" SUBJECT: Re: pro comp MT's DATE: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:27:07 -0400 ORGANIZATION: None NEWSGROUPS: rec.autos.4x4 "sbest" wrote in message news:396771b6.51536065@news.glinx.com... > SBest: > >> It happens, sharp rocks, a little spinning and air gets lost. > >> Are you telling me this doesn't happen to Bridgestone and Goodyear tires? > >> You are dead wrong there, they are no better constructed, in fact the > >> Goodyears in particular may not be made as well. > > > On Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:33:50 -0400, "little_joe" > wrote: > >I'm not saying it doesn't happen to other tires. From my experience, it just > >seems to happen more often with BFG's, and not because "everybody is running > >them" - this is not because there are more BFG's on the trail. > > I and many in my crowd are using BFG's, in part because some of us work > for the manufacturer and get good deals on our tires. I don't think I have > seen one slashed yet, although I have seen them gashed and chunked. > I average a slashed tire a summer or so, but most often it is my fault for > when I have inappropriate tires on. "P" series stuff or weathered junk I > am just trying to get rid of. The BFG M/T seem to stand up pretty well, > but then most purpose designed off-road tires do. > > I don't know how to explain your experience, we don't air down too much > here, maybe your crowd does? BFG M/Ts seem to do very well in our wet, > rocky, forested terrain. > > > >Please, I'd love to know how or why the other tires aren't constructed as > >well as BFG's. > > I don't know if they are. I do believe that Michelin's offroad tires are > some of the best constructed tires. Why? > > It takes a good bead to hold the tire to the rim, Michelin uses a > continiuous wound, taper formed bead-core of steel, it is wrapped in a > tenatious rubber to keep it adhering to the steel, surroundes by the body > cord and protected by a durable outer rubber layer. > > The body of the carcass is more steel wire. Why steel? Because it has > the highest tensile strength of any tire cord and is the best at > conducting heat away from the working parts of the tire. This steel cord > has a special "fret" wire to improve its adhesion to the rubber, and is > specially plated and chemically treated to assure the best rubber/steel > adhesion in the buseness. If the steel is well bonded to the rubber you > don't end up with "broken plies" and hot spots. This steel body cord acts > like a chain-link fence to keep out sharp intrusions. Even better, it is > the final barrier to intrusions in the bead area. This body cord is > wrapped around the bead and its ends project up the sidewall a way, and > over this is a 3rd layer of supporting biased steel plies. In larger > military tires these will readily stop a pistol bullet. > > On the tread, all Michelin full sized off-road tires that I see getting > built have 4 biased plies PLUS that body cord. FIVE layers of biased steel > cords protecting the tread area. Tread punctures are very rare with these > tires. Besides the durable tread that Michelins are typically known for, > they all have an inner butyl layer to protect against air leakage and > against water intrusion into the rubber. The exterior sidewall is > protected with neoprene to prevent weathering and ozone deterioration. > > You might have guessed, I work in a Michelin tire plant producing on and > off-road truck tires. > > > >> You ignore the fact that BFG was taken over recently by Michelin and is > >> enjoying a steady trade in technology and had considerably improved in the > >> past few years. Rubber compounding, cord prep, cure timing, cord lay > >> accuracy, uniformity, radial variation, dynamic balance and tracking have > >> all improved in the past few years due to Michelin's influence and methods > >> and trades of managment and engineering. > > > >I didn't ignore this, I just don't know how it factors into this discussion? > >This theory is nice, I'd love substantiation of Michelin's improvement of > >the BFG line. All I do know is what Goodyear and Bridgestone put out about > >their tires, which actually explains the improvements in rubber compound and > >some of the other technologies they use in the manufacture of their tires. > > It factors in because Michelin is probably the technology leader in tire > development. Michelin invented the demountable tire and then the radial. > Michelin was the first manufacturer to make common use of the sipe. > When Michelin took the radial to Formula One to test it and refine it, > they soon also started taking all the trophies. In the 1970s when I > started driving, it was not unusual to replace tires at 10-20,000 miles, > unless you had Michelin radials which lasted many times longer. > Michelin drove the other manufacturers to the radial. > > Today Michelin is out of F-1 but leading in rally racing, ice racing, > subway tires, run-flat and space shuttle tires. They never stop the > reasearch and have never in their history ever played "catch-up" with any > other manufacturer in regard to quality or innovation. > > What does this have to do with BFG? > BFG and Uniroyal were companies in trouble when purchased by Michelin. > Their products and methods had quality problems. The "substantiation of > Michelin's improvement of the BFG line" is that we sent engineers, > managers, and techicians from Michelin factories and development centers > to the BFG factories. I personally know some of these people and what > their jobs were on these transfers. BFG and Uniroyal are better tires > today for it even if they are still built differently than Michelins. > > Goodyear? Once the largest tire manufacturer in the world, but > complacent and confident to sit still in a fast changing product world. > > Bridgstone? Like many Japanese companies, not really an innovator, but a > refiner of other's ideas. Bridgstone builds high quality tires based on > mostly proven ideas. Their main emphasis in manufacturing has been > reduction of costs, and they are a known leader in this respect. Michelin > can learn something from Bridgestone in this respect but has little to > learn from them in quality or innovation. > > >I'm not disparaging BFG's, I happen to think they're good tires but way > >overrated. The tread does not clean as well as some other MT's (not > >Swamper-types, but MT's -- I've watched this firsthand), they appear to rip > >quite easily, and they're overpriced, esp the new AT/KO. > > The M/T is an old tire design. It has benefited from improved materials > and construction in the past few years but is basically the same 15 year > old tire as you pointed out. The AT/KO, Baja and several other sub-species > of these offroad tires are destinctly better at different things and it > took some reasearch to develop them. Guess how they plan to pay for that > research and development? > > If you want a cheaper version of these tires, wait 5 years for > Bridgstone and Goodyear to come out with one! > > > >The other thing is this 3-ply sidewall is a fallacy, unless their 3-plies > >are the same construction and quality as their competitors. Otherwise, we're > >back to paper towels vs leather................ > > > >joe > > > Hey, I really don't get to see BFG M/Ts build so I really don't know. > If you are basing your opinions on 15 years of experience, you may be out > of date. I really do not know for sure, but I would find it hard to > believe that a manufacturer would go cheap on materials for its "showcase" > tire. I also find it hard to believe a tire consistanly selling for less > would be using significantly better materials. > > Are BFG worth their price premium? It is your decision. > I learned to 4-wheel on the worst of Goodyear military "sand pattern" > tires, and I went some fearsome places, but if you really want the best... > > > Steve Best, Nova Scotia, Canada > 4x4 van website: > http://www.glinx.com/users/sbest > Sign up for the 4x4van newslist: > http://www.onelist.com/community/4x4van > > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- Steve, many thanks for the informative post. I appreciate the depth of knowledge and time you've taken to explain why the BFG's are great tires: one issue I still have, though, is how is this different than Bridgestone, Goodyear, etc? It'd be ideal if we had someone around who has that insight with the other tires to help us out. Again, I am not arguing that BFG's are not good -- they are. Are they the best for an everyday MT that is awesome offroad? :-) Just fyi, we run tires a bit low offroad, but probably not moreso than anywhere else -- usually around 15psi or so for the "street" MT's, lower for the bias ply tires. joe