From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" To: dtlc@helios.net Date sent: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 22:59:41 +0100 Subject: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Copies to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net Anyone close to the Kaymar factory? Please whip the guy responsible for the hardware-purchases. M12 should be 19mm hexagonal, NOT 18mm you ~!@#$%^&* fools! Darn, nearly all my tools consist of only 17mm and 19mm, nothing inbetween, especially the sockets....very untypical size, and DEFINATELY not listed in my technical handbooks as appropriate (18mm isn't even listed as optional; so it must be offending the ISO or DIN-norm too)....bolts and nuts, both 18mm....bastards. "Mate, if we have to supply those 'ropeans with metric hardware, we better find something nasty & evil, that'll teach them!" -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] From: "Ayukawa, Michael C (Mike)" To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: RE: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Date sent: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 16:59:09 -0400 Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net > Anyone close to the Kaymar factory? > Please whip the guy responsible for the hardware-purchases. > > M12 should be 19mm hexagonal, NOT 18mm you ~!@#$%^&* fools! > > Darn, nearly all my tools consist of only 17mm and 19mm, nothing > inbetween, especially the sockets....very untypical size, and > DEFINATELY not listed in my technical handbooks as appropriate (18mm > isn't even listed as optional; so it must be offending the ISO or > DIN-norm too)....bolts and nuts, both 18mm....bastards. > > "Mate, if we have to supply those 'ropeans with metric hardware, we > better find something nasty & evil, that'll teach them!" WJM, Could it be a JIS? Mike From: martin@59Lawnside.freeserve.co.uk To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com>, Copies to: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80] Fools at Kaymar Date sent: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 23:09:18 +0100 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 10:59 PM > Anyone close to the Kaymar factory? > Please whip the guy responsible for the hardware-purchases. > > M12 should be 19mm hexagonal, NOT 18mm you ~!@#$%^&* fools! > > Darn, nearly all my tools consist of only 17mm and 19mm, nothing > inbetween, especially the sockets....very untypical size, and > DEFINATELY not listed in my technical handbooks as appropriate (18mm > isn't even listed as optional; so it must be offending the ISO or > DIN-norm too)....bolts and nuts, both 18mm....bastards. > > "Mate, if we have to supply those 'ropeans with metric hardware, we > better find something nasty & evil, that'll teach them!" Willem First we have whitworth, then AF now metric what the hell was wrong witth Imperial anyway? I have a box of all of these but no 18mm! Martin From: Mike Graham To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Date sent: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 18:51:51 -0400 Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net On Tue, 24 Oct 2000, you wrote: > Anyone close to the Kaymar factory? > Please whip the guy responsible for the hardware-purchases. > > M12 should be 19mm hexagonal, NOT 18mm you ~!@#$%^&* fools! 18mm is european standard. 19mm is Japanese standard. > Darn, nearly all my tools consist of only 17mm and 19mm, nothing > inbetween, especially the sockets....very untypical size, and > DEFINATELY not listed in my technical handbooks as appropriate (18mm > isn't even listed as optional; so it must be offending the ISO or > DIN-norm too)....bolts and nuts, both 18mm....bastards. Which books did you check? My primary reference is currently hiding somewhere, so I can't look it up, and none of my secondaries have hex-head hardware (though I can tell you *anything* about socket-head cap screws). I have, however, run into 18mm hardware several times. Most recently was on the bolts holding on a Saturn (owned by General Motors) brake caliper. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Mike Graham | Metalworker by trade mikegraham at sprint dot ca | Rancher by choice Caledon, Ontario, Canada | Weird by nature -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" To: dtlc@helios.net Date sent: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 00:06:13 +0100 Subject: RE: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net On 24 Oct 00 at 16:59, Ayukawa, Michael C (Mike) wrote: > WJM, > Could it be a JIS? > Mike Joke In Sarcasm?....;)) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] Date sent: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 09:09:28 +1000 From: Brian Monger To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net On Tue, Oct 24, 2000 at 10:59:41PM +0100, Willem-Jan Markerink wrote: > Anyone close to the Kaymar factory? > Please whip the guy responsible for the hardware-purchases. > > M12 should be 19mm hexagonal, NOT 18mm you ~!@#$%^&* fools! > > Darn, nearly all my tools consist of only 17mm and 19mm, nothing > inbetween, especially the sockets....very untypical size, and > DEFINATELY not listed in my technical handbooks as appropriate (18mm > isn't even listed as optional; so it must be offending the ISO or > DIN-norm too)....bolts and nuts, both 18mm....bastards. > > "Mate, if we have to supply those 'ropeans with metric hardware, we > better find something nasty & evil, that'll teach them!" No can do, W-J, the Kaymar Factory is in Melbourne, and as much as I'd love to drive 900k's to kick their collective arses :) Maybe David or Bill will do it for you? I see a lot of 18mm heads come out of shops here, it's weird. my Sidchrome (Australian Made) has 18mm sockets and spanners, but I agree they're not a standard of any kind. What's worse is you can't even blame old tooling - 18mm isn't even close to any SAE/AF size either - about the closest would be 3/4" which is almost spot-on (you guessed it!) 19mm! the M12x1.5 bolts that hold the idler shaft plate to my fairey overdrive are 18mm, and the bolts that hold my ARB bullbar on are 18mm heads as well - it's not standard, but I've got sockets and spanners to fit so I don't care so much. Maybe it's a British colonial hangover. out of interest only, are they 1, 1.25, or 1.5mm pitch M12's? Date sent: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:29:25 +0900 To: dtlc@helios.net From: Dave Stedman Subject: RE: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net At 04:59 PM 10/24/2000 -0400, you wrote: >WJM, >Could it be a JIS? No. Never even seen an 18 mm wrench here. Dave Stedman Kakogawa Japan N 34º 45' 45.2" E 134º 52'22.3" stedman@ans.kobe-u.ac.jp stedman@canada.com http://jamesstedman.tripod.com/Cruisers.html From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" To: dtlc@helios.net Date sent: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:25:46 +0100 Subject: Re: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net On 25 Oct 00 at 9:09, Brian Monger wrote: > No can do, W-J, the Kaymar Factory is in Melbourne, and as > much as I'd love to drive 900k's to kick their collective > arses :) Maybe David or Bill will do it for you? > > I see a lot of 18mm heads come out of shops here, it's weird. > my Sidchrome (Australian Made) has 18mm sockets and spanners, > but I agree they're not a standard of any kind. What's worse > is you can't even blame old tooling - 18mm isn't even close to > any SAE/AF size either - about the closest would be 3/4" which is > almost spot-on (you guessed it!) 19mm! > > the M12x1.5 bolts that hold the idler shaft plate to my fairey > overdrive are 18mm, and the bolts that hold my ARB bullbar on > are 18mm heads as well - it's not standard, but I've got sockets > and spanners to fit so I don't care so much. Maybe it's a > British colonial hangover. > > out of interest only, are they 1, 1.25, or 1.5mm pitch M12's? 1.75....:)) But that doesn't conflict with my tables, it's either 1.25 fine or 1.75 coarse (not sure whether I have a 1.5 or 1.25 pitch in my die set, but at least 1.75 is present) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" To: dtlc@helios.net Date sent: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:40:59 +0100 Subject: Re: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net On 24 Oct 00 at 18:51, Mike Graham wrote: > On Tue, 24 Oct 2000, you wrote: > > > Anyone close to the Kaymar factory? > > Please whip the guy responsible for the hardware-purchases. > > > > M12 should be 19mm hexagonal, NOT 18mm you ~!@#$%^&* fools! > > 18mm is european standard. No way, all additional M12 hardware I bought for this project (a few longer bolts for the European tow hitch underneath, and two extra nuts for the 3 rows of bolts on each side, for this hitch) is 19mm..... > 19mm is Japanese standard. Are there really different metric standards? Can't believe that.... > > Darn, nearly all my tools consist of only 17mm and 19mm, nothing > > inbetween, especially the sockets....very untypical size, and > > DEFINATELY not listed in my technical handbooks as appropriate (18mm > > isn't even listed as optional; so it must be offending the ISO or > > DIN-norm too)....bolts and nuts, both 18mm....bastards. > > Which books did you check? My primary reference is currently hiding > somewhere, so I can't look it up, and none of my secondaries have hex-head > hardware (though I can tell you *anything* about socket-head cap screws). My Polytechnical Handbook shows the following size/head combinations: M5 8mm M6 10 M8 13 M10 17 M12 19 M16 24 M20 30 M24 36 M30 46 M36 55 > I have, however, run into 18mm hardware several times. Most recently was on > the bolts holding on a Saturn (owned by General Motors) brake caliper. In all my compact sets of tools, sockets and wrenches, 18mm is missing, and I can't get M12 in 18mm either from my local metal shop....they shake their head when I tell them about this size....8-)) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] From: "Pieter" To: Subject: Re: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Date sent: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:15:11 +0200 Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net > Anyone close to the Kaymar factory? > Please whip the guy responsible for the hardware-purchases. > > M12 should be 19mm hexagonal, NOT 18mm you ~!@#$%^&* fools! > > Darn, nearly all my tools consist of only 17mm and 19mm, nothing > inbetween, especially the sockets....very untypical size, and > DEFINATELY not listed in my technical handbooks as appropriate (18mm > isn't even listed as optional; so it must be offending the ISO or > DIN-norm too)....bolts and nuts, both 18mm....bastards. > > "Mate, if we have to supply those 'ropeans with metric hardware, we > better find something nasty & evil, that'll teach them!" > Off the top of my head (don't want to go find my mechanical engineering books from the attic under layers of dust) I think 18mm heads is the standard for fine-tread M12. Cheers, Pieter HDJ100, Minsk, By From: "Pieter" To: Subject: Re: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Date sent: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:35:36 +0200 Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net > > In all my compact sets of tools, sockets and wrenches, 18mm is > missing, and I can't get M12 in 18mm either from my local metal > shop....they shake their head when I tell them about this > size....8-)) > My two sets of 1/2" sockets as well as my rings & opens have 18 included. But I guess it's because all my tools are German. And Germans go all insane if there's something out of order - like a missing number in your socket range. Also remember there was no 21mm socket? Indeed, my Jaos rims come with 21mm bolts, a 21mm 3/8 socket (and fortunately a hex adapter for 22) as well as a very nice 21 wheel bolt wrench. Cheers, Pieter HDJ100, Minsk, BY From: Mike Graham To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Date sent: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:43:27 -0400 Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net On Wed, 25 Oct 2000, you wrote: > Are there really different metric standards? > Can't believe that.... There are. The Europeans use a head one millimeter larger than the Japanese in almost every case. > My Polytechnical Handbook shows the following size/head combinations: Normally the 'universal standard' for hex head bolts is a head 1.5x the diameter of the bolt, so 1/2" has a 3/4" head. It's rounded here and there so that you don't have to find a 15/32" wrench to turn a 5/16" bolt, but generally speaking that's how it works. I'm going from dim memory, but here's how I remember it: > M5 8mm 7.5mm, can go either way. Japanese went down, Europeans went up. M6 > 10 10mm for Japanese, 11mm for European. M8 13 12mm for Japanese, 13mm for > European M10 17 17 is Japanese standard. European is 16mm M12 19 J standard, > E is 18mm M16 24 right on M20 30 right on M24 36 right on M30 46 s/b 45mm, but > same for both M36 55 s/b 54mm, but same for both Hang on, just found my primary reference ("Machining and Metalworking Handbook") and it lists: M5 - 8mm M6 - 10mm M8 - 13mm M10 - 16mm M12 - 18mm (Honest! That's what it says!) M14 - 21mm M16 - 24mm M20 - 30mm M24 - 36mm M30 - 46mm M36 - 55mm > In all my compact sets of tools, sockets and wrenches, 18mm is > missing, and I can't get M12 in 18mm either from my local metal > shop....they shake their head when I tell them about this > size....8-)) The ones stocked at the store I frequent are 18mm, IIRC, but I can get J standard by shopping elsewhere. It actually pisses me off when I go to replace something on the 'cruiser and it's a mix of 12mm and 13mm heads on the same bolts (because I've replaced some). -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Mike Graham | Metalworker by trade mikegraham at sprint dot ca | Rancher by choice Caledon, Ontario, Canada | Weird by nature -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Date sent: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:47:49 +1000 From: Brian Monger To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net > > 1.75....:)) > But that doesn't conflict with my tables, it's either 1.25 fine or > 1.75 coarse (not sure whether I have a 1.5 or 1.25 pitch in my die > set, but at least 1.75 is present) I think 12mm is "the" all-purpose metric thread. I went and checked, and I had dies for 12x1, 12x1.25, and 12x1.75 - maybe I'm making up 12x1.5. I remember my bullbar bolts seemed unusually coarse, must be the 1.75 which I assumed was 1.5 and I didn't bother to measure. did you find an 18mm socket yet? I've got a few, I cam mail you a spare one if you'd like. B From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" To: dtlc@helios.net Date sent: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 12:34:25 +0100 Subject: Re: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net On 26 Oct 00 at 8:47, Brian Monger wrote: > > > > 1.75....:)) > > But that doesn't conflict with my tables, it's either 1.25 fine or > > 1.75 coarse (not sure whether I have a 1.5 or 1.25 pitch in my die > > set, but at least 1.75 is present) > > > > I think 12mm is "the" all-purpose metric thread. I went and checked, > and I had dies for 12x1, 12x1.25, and 12x1.75 - maybe I'm making up > 12x1.5. I remember my bullbar bolts seemed unusually coarse, must > be the 1.75 which I assumed was 1.5 and I didn't bother to measure. > > did you find an 18mm socket yet? I've got a few, I cam mail you > a spare one if you'd like. Thanx, but I already bought one....it's not that the shop doesn't have them, most of my aversion came from the fact that I had to buy a single brand/relatively-expensive socket, instead of grab around in my various el-cheapo kits....that single socket is half the price of an entire kit....8-)) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] Date sent: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 07:48:19 +0900 To: dtlc@helios.net From: Dave Stedman Subject: Re: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net At 08:40 PM 10/25/2000 +0100, you wrote: > >Are there really different metric standards? >Can't believe that.... > JIS ISO Also in Canada we use the MKS version (meters, kilogram, second) in Japan they are strict cgs people (centimeter, gram, second). I find the change in units to be more of an issue than anything else. I am very comfortable with kPa and MPa but clueless with Barr and kg/cm² . I am sure that there are other amazing things done with the metric system in other countries. Now if we could all just use the US system FED (Football fields for length, Elephants for mass and Dog years for time) life would be so fine. Dave Stedman Kakogawa Japan N 34º 45' 45.2" E 134º 52'22.3" stedman@ans.kobe-u.ac.jp stedman@canada.com http://jamesstedman.tripod.com/Cruisers.html Date sent: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:05:16 +1000 From: Brian Monger To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net On Thu, Oct 26, 2000 at 07:48:19AM +0900, Dave Stedman wrote: > At 08:40 PM 10/25/2000 +0100, you wrote: > > > >Are there really different metric standards? > >Can't believe that.... > > > > JIS > ISO > > Also in Canada we use the MKS version (meters, kilogram, second) in Japan they > are strict cgs people (centimeter, gram, second). I find the change in units > to be more of an issue than anything else. I am very comfortable with kPa and > MPa but clueless with Barr and kg/cm² . I am sure that there are other > amazing things done with the metric system in other countries. > > Now if we could all just use the US system FED (Football fields for > length, Elephants for mass and Dog years for time) life would be so fine. to me, 'metric' is synonymous with 'SI', and I shudder every time I'm forced to deal with cm, kg/cm, grams, stokes, etc etc etc. it's just not natural ;) If I learned anything in engineer school, it was to standardise units before starting calculations - I just don't understand why it's nevessary to use made-up things like km/cm^2 when there's perfectly good units like Pa (Nm^-2) so, should we use a gridiron field? a soccer field? a rugby field, or an AFL field (which doesn't even have any dimensions!) for the length standar? and is that African or Indian Elephants for mass? and are those bull-terrier-corrected dog years?? Date sent: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:26:08 +0900 To: dtlc@helios.net From: Dave Stedman Subject: Re: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net At 09:05 AM 10/26/2000 +1000, you wrote: >to me, 'metric' is synonymous with 'SI', and I shudder every >time I'm forced to deal with cm, kg/cm, grams, stokes, etc etc >etc. it's just not natural ;) If I learned anything in engineer >school, it was to standardise units before starting calculations - >I just don't understand why it's nevessary to use made-up things >like km/cm^2 when there's perfectly good units like Pa (Nm^-2) I grew up on kPa, I don't even understand how you can have a mass flux as in kg/cm² . >so, should we use a gridiron field? a soccer field? a rugby field, >or an AFL field (which doesn't even have any dimensions!) for the >length standar? and is that African or Indian Elephants for mass? >and are those bull-terrier-corrected dog years?? Ummmm Brian, that part was a joke, no need to submit it for standardization just yet. Dave Stedman Kakogawa Japan N 34º 45' 45.2" E 134º 52'22.3" stedman@ans.kobe-u.ac.jp stedman@canada.com http://jamesstedman.tripod.com/Cruisers.html Date sent: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:34:15 +1000 From: Brian Monger To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net > >so, should we use a gridiron field? a soccer field? a rugby field, > >or an AFL field (which doesn't even have any dimensions!) for the > >length standar? and is that African or Indian Elephants for mass? > >and are those bull-terrier-corrected dog years?? > > Ummmm Brian, that part was a joke, no need to submit it for standardization > just yet. doh! and here was I thinking we were on the verge of a new era of dimensional harmony *grin* Date sent: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:49:58 +0900 To: dtlc@helios.net From: Dave Stedman Subject: Re: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net At 09:34 AM 10/26/2000 +1000, you wrote: >doh! and here was I thinking we were on the verge of a new era >of dimensional harmony *grin* Ok throw out the new units. Km per yen (or dollar) Oil by the "pan" Distance "this much" or "real big" Nutrition by the "hotdog" Women by the .... never mind that one. Dave Stedman Kakogawa Japan N 34º 45' 45.2" E 134º 52'22.3" stedman@ans.kobe-u.ac.jp stedman@canada.com http://jamesstedman.tripod.com/Cruisers.html Date sent: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:50:54 -0400 From: Chistophe Cuvillier <83bj60@consultech.cx> Organization: consultech.cx To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re[2]: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net Hello, Wednesday, October 25, 2000, 3:40:59 PM, you wrote: WJM> On 24 Oct 00 at 18:51, Mike Graham wrote: >> On Tue, 24 Oct 2000, you wrote: >> >> > Anyone close to the Kaymar factory? >> > Please whip the guy responsible for the hardware-purchases. >> > >> > M12 should be 19mm hexagonal, NOT 18mm you ~!@#$%^&* fools! >> >> 18mm is european standard. WJM> My Polytechnical Handbook shows the following size/head combinations: WJM> M5 8mm WJM> M6 10 WJM> M8 13 WJM> M10 17 WJM> M12 19 WJM> M16 24 WJM> M20 30 WJM> M24 36 WJM> M30 46 WJM> M36 55 There are MANY 12mm head bolts on a Cruiser as well, that I have not been able to replace except with 13mm ones! -- Best regards, Christophe Cuvillier 83bj60 "Marathon Runner", 450,000 km Date sent: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:01:06 +0900 To: dtlc@helios.net From: Dave Stedman Subject: Re[2]: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net At 07:50 PM 10/25/2000 -0400, you wrote: >There are MANY 12mm head bolts on a Cruiser as well, that I have not been >able to replace except with 13mm ones! My 12mm headed bolts (8mm bolt) are now sporting SS socket head caps. One size wrenches :-) Dave Stedman Kakogawa Japan N 34º 45' 45.2" E 134º 52'22.3" stedman@ans.kobe-u.ac.jp stedman@canada.com http://jamesstedman.tripod.com/Cruisers.html Date sent: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 11:06:07 +1000 From: Brian Monger To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: Re: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net On Thu, Oct 26, 2000 at 06:28:02AM +0000, comptona@ozemail.com.au wrote: > My vice grip pliers work just fine on all size heads!! This is heading in the direction of the famous 'likkid nales' thread foo the toy 4x4 list a year or so ago... once on an old datsun I had, the gearbox fill plug was so mangled that I had to remove the gearbox and WELD a bar to the plug to get the plug out. From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" To: dtlc@helios.net Date sent: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 12:16:45 +0100 Subject: Re: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Copies to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net On 24 Oct 00 at 22:59, Willem-Jan Markerink wrote: > Anyone close to the Kaymar factory? > Please whip the guy responsible for the hardware-purchases. > > M12 should be 19mm hexagonal, NOT 18mm you ~!@#$%^&* fools! > > Darn, nearly all my tools consist of only 17mm and 19mm, nothing > inbetween, especially the sockets....very untypical size, and > DEFINATELY not listed in my technical handbooks as appropriate (18mm > isn't even listed as optional; so it must be offending the ISO or > DIN-norm too)....bolts and nuts, both 18mm....bastards. > > "Mate, if we have to supply those 'ropeans with metric hardware, we > better find something nasty & evil, that'll teach them!" This really is a conspiracy....when mounting the alu cover plate on top[*], the M6 nuts looked like 10mm hexagonal....until I discovered that it was hair too large for all my 10mm wrenches, and way too small for 11mm wrenches. Only a worn 10mm socket finally fitted....what is it with these guys? In all my innocence, I even measured size to see whether it was actually an inch size for some perverted reason....but nope, it was just as much a vague inbetween inch size as it was a vague inbetween metric size....perhaps the Chinese have a 3rd system?....8-)) Time for a not-so-friendly chat with Kaymar's chief Hardware-Purchase-Department....fools! [*] I much more prefer the galvanized steel plate that comes with the TJM rear bars....much stronger, which is quite relevant in case of a 60-series, where there is a large front/rear gap on the sides, between body and bumper....if I put my foot there with all my weight, that plate has no choice but bend downwards....particulary nasty when wearing ski boots.... I also have the feeling as if this Kaymar aluminium won't get as rough by surface oxidizing as the galvanized TJM....the latter has become a lovely anti-slip dull grey. (and it's also not a very tidy fit either, right side gap is 1mm, left side 5mm....tempting to get a steel plate custom made) But, the 8mm steel thickness of the Kaymar compensates for all this, compared to the 5mm thickness of TJM....I now even start wondering how anyone dares to use the TJM recovery holes as attachment points for a D-ring/strap....any side-ward force might bend them. -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] From: "Pieter" To: "80series list" <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com>, Subject: Re: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Date sent: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 15:07:54 +0100 Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net > > But, the 8mm steel thickness of the Kaymar compensates for all this, > compared to the 5mm thickness of TJM....I now even start wondering > how anyone dares to use the TJM recovery holes as attachment > points for a D-ring/strap....any side-ward force might bend them. > If I would want something to be bullet-proof, I don't think I would select the bumper as the first item. (Side) windows most likely go first. About the strength (or assumed lack thereof) of a TJM rear bar, I can report the following: A week ago, Saturday 21/10 (10/21 for those Transatlantics on the list), we had a nice event near Minsk, lots of nasty watercrossings over completely rotten wooden bridges and nothing else but mud and peat around. I already spend some 6 hours winching, and around 20:30 (Transatlantics: 8:30 PM) I raced through a small village (4-5 houses)to make it to the camp about 5 miles further. I missed an intersection, backed up, and of course (it was pitch dark) crashed into a wooden pole that held the electricity wires to the village. Wires came down, happily sparking away for half a minute until somewhere upstream the fuses blew. Lights went out, people came out of their houses, and we had the following dialog: "What's happening? What shall we do when there's no electricity?" I asked them: "what do you do on a Saturday evening when you have electricity?" "Well, we have dinner, we drink vodka and later we screw around" came the answer. "Did you guys had your dinner?" "Yes, that's already finished" "You can do the rest without electricity!" and I climbed in my car and drove on. Later inspection learned the only damage was a dent in the license plate, the plastic thing under it was crashed, and the aluminum top cover on the bumper had marginally popped up. Jumping on it reseated the screws. Morale: a TJM rear bumper appears to be sufficient for Belarus. Secondly, the TJM bumper has this convenient 85x42 mm hole pattern on which I mounted a NATO pintle hook. I did have to extend two holes through the frame crossmember and put a steel plate on the inner side to have a nice strong connection without crushing the crossmember. Whenever I get the opportunity to pull one of these Russian 76mm antitank guns, I'll post the pictures ....... And W-J, rejoice! For the HZJ74 I ordered in Holland I'm about to order a Kaymar rear bumper. After all, electricity masts in Holland are made of steel, not wood ...... Cheers, Pieter HDJ100, Minsk, BY From: "Ayukawa, Michael C (Mike)" To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: RE: [DTLC] Fools at Kaymar Date sent: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 08:18:27 -0500 Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net > This really is a conspiracy....when mounting the alu cover plate on > top[*], the M6 nuts looked like 10mm hexagonal....until I > discovered that > it was hair too large for all my 10mm wrenches, and way too small for > 11mm wrenches. Only a worn 10mm socket finally fitted....what > is it with > these guys? In all my innocence, I even measured size to see whether > it was actually an inch size for some perverted reason....but nope, > it was just as much a vague inbetween inch size as it was a vague > inbetween metric size....perhaps the Chinese have a 3rd > system?....8-)) WJM, Funny you would say that. My Sears Craftsman deep metric 10mm socket also seems to be too small to fit on some of my 10mm bolts. Craftsman is a reasonable quality socket so I was surprised. However, my el cheapo set from 'Harbour Freight', fits just fine so I haven't taken the time yet to sort this out. I had assumed that somehow the Sears socket was out of spec. Do you have the tolerance spec for 10mm M6 bolts and nuts? thanks, Mike