Date forwarded: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 17:51:33 +0200 (MET DST) Forwarded by: Steven.Morton@sci.monash.edu.au Date sent: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 17:57:04 +0100 From: Willem-Jan Markerink Subject: Hulcherama / Seitz Super Roundshot To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Send reply to: w.j.markerink@a1.nl Priority: normal [posted to Pan list and directly to Gary Beasley, not sure whether he is reading the list currently] Lately I have been pondering about a full-swing camera, in particular the Hulcherama and Seits Super Roundshot (35mm & 120/220), as only these two allow changing of lenses. I have read the related messages that I had in my archive for this list, and this is my pro/con list thusfar Hulcherama Pro: - 2.5kg (vs 13.6kg for Seitz 120, and even the Seitz 35mm weighs 3.8kg) - only 12V battery is separate - cheaper (US$5.7k vs 10?k) - available used - might need a cleaning job every now and then to prevent banding Super Roundshot Pro: - longest shutterspeed 128s (vs 1s) - at one time they offered a 70mm magazine for the 120 model, don't think it ever saw real production....any new information? Questions remaining: - Is there any way to persuade the Hulcherama into longer exposure times? - Is the 2.5kg correct for Hulcher camera+battery? Anyone tried a 10-cell NiCd pack instead of the normal sealed lead-acid blocks? How power-hungry is this camera? - Are the listed minimum focal lengths the absolute limit, or just based on the shortest lens normally used? (30mm for Hulcherama, 13mm for Seitz 35mm, 30mm for Seitz 120/220) I assume the Seitz can simply be programmed to handle shorter focal lengths, while the Hulcherama might be limited to its possible gear combinations.... - How is the Hulcherama adjusted for the various nodal points? Does it use the same sliding-rail construction as the Seitz? (not visible in either brochure nor on the web, unless the tree black 'teeth/ridges' on the front indicate this sliding rail) - Do both companies offer custom-mounts, in particular Kowa 6x6? - Are there any Hulcher model generations to avoid or to prefer? There were a few slight improvements over the year I believe....can they be distinguished on serial number? - One of my archived Hulcher messages lists a used price of US$2.7k for a '96 model or so....is that an average used price, or a very good one? I have seen one for US$3.5-4 overhere....a bit stiff....has there ever been a distributor in Europe/Holland? Even one that can do maintenance? My goals: - long time exposures, at night and/or indoors - mounting a 35mm Kowa lens - mounting fisheyes for a 180 x 360 degree view....hopefully one day even expanded to 220 x 360 degree (anyone know a Nikon 6mm/f5.6 for sale??....:-)) - while using a 16mm full frame fisheye on a 120 camera would be a nice compromise, my ultimate goal is to mount my Kowa 19mm circular fisheye on such a rotating camera....but that lens weighs 2.3kg, and is 17cm long....could any of these two cameras take both weight and size? - apart from wasting image area, have there been adapters available to mount 35mm-system lenses on the 120 cameras? - idem for Mamiya RB lenses? I already have a 37mm fisheye....sounds like something I have to try too....:-)) Thanks for listening to my questions & ponderings, looking forward to any comments/answers/reports/opinions.... Btw, I am willing to consider trading a mint Mamiya RB-Pro-SD 75mm shift plus 150mm soft-focus lens for a Hulcherama or a normal Seitz Roundshot 65/220 EL....I guess trading it for Super Roundshot 120/220 is stretching it....but I would still consider!....;-)) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] Date sent: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 11:49:22 -0700 From: Dan Slater Send reply to: dslater@ix.netcom.com Organization: NSI To: w.j.markerink@a1.nl Subject: Re: Hulcherama / Seitz Super Roundshot Willem-Jan Markerink wrote: > [posted to Pan list and directly to Gary Beasley, not sure whether he > is reading the list currently] > > Lately I have been pondering about a full-swing camera, in particular > the Hulcherama and Seits Super Roundshot (35mm & 120/220), as only > these two allow changing of lenses. I have read the related messages > that I had in my archive for this list, and this is my pro/con list thusfar > > Hulcherama > Pro: > - 2.5kg (vs 13.6kg for Seitz 120, and even the Seitz 35mm weighs > 3.8kg) > - only 12V battery is separate > - cheaper (US$5.7k vs 10?k) > - available used > - might need a cleaning job every now and then to prevent banding > > Super Roundshot > Pro: > - longest shutterspeed 128s (vs 1s) > - at one time they offered a 70mm magazine for the 120 model, don't > think it ever saw real production....any new information? > > Questions remaining: > > - Is there any way to persuade the Hulcherama into longer exposure > times? > Add an additional drive motor or a gear mechanism. The Hulcherama is pretty easy to work on or modify. > > - Is the 2.5kg correct for Hulcher camera+battery? Anyone tried a 10-cell NiCd > pack instead of the normal sealed lead-acid blocks? How power-hungry is this > camera? > I have an older one that runs on 6 volts. I have never had any power problems. > > - Are the listed minimum focal lengths the absolute limit, or just > based on the shortest lens normally used? (30mm for Hulcherama, 13mm > for Seitz 35mm, 30mm for Seitz 120/220) I assume the Seitz can simply > be programmed to handle shorter focal lengths, while the Hulcherama > might be limited to its possible gear combinations.... > The Hulcherama is limited to specific focal lengths by the gear mechanisms. The lens focal length change on the Hulcherama requires a partial disassembly. The Round shot is much simpler here. > > - How is the Hulcherama adjusted for the various nodal points? Does > it use the same sliding-rail construction as the Seitz? (not visible > in either brochure nor on the web, unless the tree black > 'teeth/ridges' on the front indicate this sliding rail) > There is no nodal point adjustment on the Hulcherama. It is not needed unless you have close up (< 10 feet) objects in the image. > > - Do both companies offer custom-mounts, in particular Kowa 6x6? > > - Are there any Hulcher model generations to avoid or to prefer? > There were a few slight improvements over the year I believe....can > they be distinguished on serial number? > They are pretty much all the same. The later ones are 12 volt and run slightly faster, have optional reflex and shift. The older ones can be upgraded. I have an older one that works quite well. > > - One of my archived Hulcher messages lists a used price of US$2.7k > for a '96 model or so....is that an average used price, or a very > good one? > I have seen one for US$3.5-4 overhere....a bit stiff....has there > ever been a distributor in Europe/Holland? Even one that can do > maintenance? > The 2.7K price is quite good. > > My goals: > - long time exposures, at night and/or indoors > - mounting a 35mm Kowa lens Probably easy to do on a Hulcherama > > - mounting fisheyes for a 180 x 360 degree view....hopefully one day > even expanded to 220 x 360 degree (anyone know a Nikon 6mm/f5.6 > for sale??....:-)) This generally won't work very well due to the f theta mapping of the fisheye, unless the slit is at the focal plane and very narrow, on the order of 0.001 inch. The image sharpness will be very poor if a standard slit is used. The fisheye lens will work well with digital pan cameras due to the very narrow effective slit width. The construction of the Hucherama does not allow an easy modification to use 35 mm format lenses such as Nikon mount. When I bought my Hulcherama, I tried to get them to mount the 28 mm Nikon PC lens but they would not. > > - while using a 16mm full frame fisheye on a 120 camera would be a > nice compromise, my ultimate goal is to mount my Kowa 19mm circular > fisheye on such a rotating camera....but that lens weighs 2.3kg, and > is 17cm long....could any of these two cameras take both weight and size? - > apart from wasting image area, have there been adapters available to mount > 35mm-system lenses on the 120 cameras? The back focus generally is insufficient to do this. > > - idem for Mamiya RB lenses? I already have a 37mm fisheye....sounds > like something I have to try too....:-)) > > Thanks for listening to my questions & ponderings, looking forward to > any comments/answers/reports/opinions.... > > Btw, I am willing to consider trading a mint Mamiya RB-Pro-SD 75mm > shift plus 150mm soft-focus lens for a Hulcherama or a normal Seitz > Roundshot 65/220 EL....I guess trading it for Super Roundshot > 120/220 is stretching it....but I would still consider!....;-)) > I looked long and hard before selecting the Hulcherama over competing makes. I use it quite frequently and it is a workhorse camera.. It still in my opinion would be my first choice for a panoramic camera. The primary advantages over the Roundshot include: 1. Much simpler to operate, does not require computers, etc., that are easily set wrong. It is a single unit that can be rapidly set up. 2. Very rugged. 3. Easy to work on and modify. I have done many modifications to mine. 4. Absolutely top notch image quality, no banding, etc. 5. Significantly lower price Primary disadvantages relative to a Roundshot; 1. Can't mount Nikon lenses 2. Difficult to change lens focal lengths. -- I only use one lens on mine (35 mm Mamiya) Good luck Dan Slater Date sent: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 20:21:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Davidhazy Subject: Re: Hulcherama / Seitz Super Roundshot To: w.j.markerink@a1.nl Copies to: ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Willem, > - Is there any way to persuade the Hulcherama into longer exposure > times? I am not sure but since exposure time is a function of slit widht and film speed through the camera I suspect the process would not be undoable ... the question si ... do you want to improvise vs. getting a ready made system? > - Is the 2.5kg correct for Hulcher camera+battery? Anyone tried a 10-cell NiCd > pack instead of the normal sealed lead-acid blocks? How power-hungry is this > camera? I have not found it to be power hungry and although I have not tried a NiCd pack I think it would work ... for a while. > - Are the listed minimum focal lengths the absolute limit, or just > based on the shortest lens normally used? (30mm for Hulcherama, 13mm > for Seitz 35mm, 30mm for Seitz 120/220) I assume the Seitz can simply > be programmed to handle shorter focal lengths, while the Hulcherama > might be limited to its possible gear combinations.... In this case the problem is that the rotation rate of the camera and the film drive are geared to each other. If you uncouple the two anything is possible. I made myself a camera cradle to do just what is needed and then can mount the Hulcher on any turntable with suitable speed control. Rotation speed is now selected by the lens on the camera and/or how much distortion you want ;-). I have an article on the web about this cradle ... the articl4e deals with applications for linear strip photography but I think it makes the point about separating the rotation mechanism from the film advance system. Find it at: http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/text-cirkutrain.html > - How is the Hulcherama adjusted for the various nodal points? Does > it use the same sliding-rail construction as the Seitz? (not visible > in either brochure nor on the web, unless the tree black > 'teeth/ridges' on the front indicate this sliding rail) As far as I know the Hulcher is not adjustable. It rotates about a point close to the location of the film plane. Generally tolerable IMO. Andy o o 0 0 o . o Davidhazy, Imaging and Photo Tech \/\/\/\/\/\/ http://www.rit.edu/~andpph ________| |_____________________________________ Date sent: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 21:36:13 -0400 To: w.j.markerink@a1.nl From: jook@hili.com (Jook Leung) Subject: Re: Hulcherama / Seitz Super Roundshot Willem-Jan Markerink wrote: > > >My goals: >- long time exposures, at night and/or indoors >- mounting a 35mm Kowa lens >- mounting fisheyes for a 180 x 360 degree view....hopefully one day >even expanded to 220 x 360 degree (anyone know a Nikon 6mm/f5.6 >for sale??....:-)) >- while using a 16mm full frame fisheye on a 120 camera would be a >nice compromise, my ultimate goal is to mount my Kowa 19mm circular >fisheye on such a rotating camera....but that lens weighs 2.3kg, and >is 17cm long....could any of these two cameras take both weight and size? >- apart from wasting image area, have there been adapters available to >mount 35mm-system lenses on the 120 cameras? >- idem for Mamiya RB lenses? I already have a 37mm fisheye....sounds >like something I have to try too....:-)) > >Thanks for listening to my questions & ponderings, looking forward to >any comments/answers/reports/opinions.... I 've been using the Seiz Roundshot 220VR with various Nikon mount lenses. Since the film in a slit type camera only sees a center portion of the lens image circle, NON-rectilinear lenses like fisheyes and full frame fisheyes won't work. The shortest lens I use on the Roundshot is a Sigma 14/2.8 Aspherical. The length of a 360 degree panorama is quite compressed, about 9.2 cm long and 4.2 cm tall. My sharpest images with this camera are with longer lenses like the Nikkor 50/1.4. A 360 panorama is 32cm in length, covers the full height of the film and 2 shots fit on a roll of 120 film. Yes I is quite a heavy camera and there is plenty of room for user error given that this camera can be setup in many different shooting modes with many different lenses and the camera gives you many different exposure reading modes too. -Jook --------------------------------------------------------------- JOOK LEUNG jook@360vr.com http://360vr.com 201.894.5881 360VR PHOTOGRAPHY - Immersive Imaging - QTVR LivePicture IPIX (^_^)OOK>> j(^_^)k J(^.^)K J(^o^)K J(^J^)K....vr