FROM: mikeloran@hotmail.com (Mike Loran) SUBJECT: Manual hubs question DATE: Sun, 02 May 1999 19:54:22 -0700 ORGANIZATION: Chief Poundmaker School NEWSGROUPS: rec.autos.4x4 I have a 1989 F150 with manual locking hubs. I noticed that someone had locked one side and the other side was left on free. I don't know how long I drove it on the highway like this before I noticed. What, if any damage could occur? Thanks. Mike FROM: w.j.markerink@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) SUBJECT: Re: Manual hubs question DATE: Mon, 03 May 99 15:45:06 GMT ORGANIZATION: A1 Internet news-server NEWSGROUPS: rec.autos.4x4 In article , mikeloran@hotmail.com (Mike Loran) wrote: >I have a 1989 F150 with manual locking hubs. I noticed that someone had >locked one side and the other side was left on free. I don't know how >long I drove it on the highway like this before I noticed. What, if any >damage could occur? Depends a little on which part wins in the friction department....my guess is that the half-shaft on the unlocked side has been spinning counter-clockwise to the locked side, while the drive shaft has not rotated at all. The problem is that the spider gears inside your diff are not ment for continuous rotation at high speed....most (if not all) don't even have true bearings, they just spin on a shaft. But since there is very little force involved, it might not have done severe harm....it's even a milder scenario than when you are stuck one-sided in 2wd, and floor the pedal, rocking back and forth, spinning only one wheel (with more grip/resistance than an unlocked hub would offer). Another problem is how to check for damage....if you haven't noticed anything bad until now, it might be okay....not sure how the typical 'worst case scenario' would reveal itself....perhaps excessive slop (hard to check on a front diff, unless you disconnect the rear), probably degraded oil (oil test?), and the horror scenario would be an grenading diff.... (posted & mailed) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] FROM: sbest@TAKEOUTglinx.com (sbest) SUBJECT: Re: Manual hubs question DATE: Sun, 02 May 1999 20:50:31 GMT ORGANIZATION: Business Internet NEWSGROUPS: rec.autos.4x4 On Sun, 02 May 1999 19:54:22 -0700, mikeloran@hotmail.com (Mike Loran) wrote: >I have a 1989 F150 with manual locking hubs. I noticed that someone had >locked one side and the other side was left on free. I don't know how >long I drove it on the highway like this before I noticed. What, if any >damage could occur? Had it happen several times myself over the years, never had a problem. Steve Best, Nova Scotia, 4x4 van website: http://www.glinx.com/users/sbest FROM: "John Jemiolo" SUBJECT: Re: Manual hubs question DATE: Mon, 3 May 1999 21:26:39 -0400 ORGANIZATION: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! NEWSGROUPS: rec.autos.4x4 No problem, the gears run in oil. That is exactly how the Dodge front end works. If you notice they have no elector on the hub. They unlock the front right axle shaft (there's a disconnect mechanism in the middle of the front right axle tube. With the axle disconnected and Xfer case dis-engaged the front left wheel just spins the spiders and left side gear in oil.. Their just as reliable as any other setup. JJ FROM: w.j.markerink@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) SUBJECT: Re: Manual hubs question DATE: Tue, 04 May 99 13:39:11 GMT ORGANIZATION: A1 Internet news-server NEWSGROUPS: rec.autos.4x4 In article <7glifr$q3n$1@remarQ.com>, "John Jemiolo" wrote: >No problem, the gears run in oil. Ahem, yes, that is how every drive-train gear & bearing runs....the difference is that the diff gears don't have any bearings to speak of.... >That is exactly how the Dodge front end >works. If you notice they have no elector on the hub. They unlock the front >right axle shaft (there's a disconnect mechanism in the middle of the front >right axle tube. With the axle disconnected and Xfer case dis-engaged the >front left wheel just spins the spiders and left side gear in oil.. Their >just as reliable as any other setup. I often wondered about that concept/scenario....but it definately can't be good for those tiny spider gears, even though their load is tiny....since their speed is high, much higher than in an ordinary single-sided wheel spin.... FROM: sbest@TAKEOUTglinx.com (sbest) SUBJECT: Re: Manual hubs question DATE: Tue, 04 May 1999 01:38:30 GMT ORGANIZATION: Business Internet NEWSGROUPS: rec.autos.4x4 >In article <7glifr$q3n$1@remarQ.com>, > "John Jemiolo" wrote: >>No problem, the gears run in oil. >>That is exactly how the Dodge front end >>works. If you notice they have no elector on the hub. They unlock the >front >>right axle shaft (there's a disconnect mechanism in the middle of the >front >>right axle tube. With the axle disconnected and Xfer case dis-engaged the >>front left wheel just spins the spiders and left side gear in oil.. Their >>just as reliable as any other setup. > On Tue, 04 May 99 13:39:11 GMT, w.j.markerink@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) wrote: >I often wondered about that concept/scenario....but it definately can't be >good for those tiny spider gears, even though their load is >tiny....since their speed is high, much higher than in an ordinary >single-sided wheel spin.... I wonder about it too WJ. We get a pile of FWD cars in the shop for destroyed differentials in the winter from spinning one tire on ice, ironically many of them are Dodge cars, but we have never had a Dodge truck CAD front axle in for differential repairs. I have never seen one totally dismantled so I do not know if they do anything special with then. The VW differential seems to be especially tough, I noticed it incorporates a couple oiling grooves on the spider shaft. As I mentioned, I have noticed on occaison that one hub was locked on my Dana 44 front axle, whether my own error or kids in a parking lot, and never had a problem. Steve Best, Nova Scotia, 4x4 van website: http://www.glinx.com/users/sbest FROM: Rob Munach SUBJECT: Re: Manual hubs question DATE: Tue, 04 May 1999 07:22:22 -0400 ORGANIZATION: Excel Engineering NEWSGROUPS: rec.autos.4x4 Willem-Jan Markerink wrote: > > In article <7glifr$q3n$1@remarQ.com>, > "John Jemiolo" wrote: > >No problem, the gears run in oil. > > Ahem, yes, that is how every drive-train gear & bearing runs....the > difference is that the diff gears don't have any bearings to speak of.... > > >That is exactly how the Dodge front end > >works. If you notice they have no elector on the hub. They unlock the > front > >right axle shaft (there's a disconnect mechanism in the middle of the > front > >right axle tube. With the axle disconnected and Xfer case dis-engaged the > >front left wheel just spins the spiders and left side gear in oil.. Their > >just as reliable as any other setup. > > I often wondered about that concept/scenario....but it definately can't be > good for those tiny spider gears, even though their load is > tiny....since their speed is high, much higher than in an ordinary > single-sided wheel spin.... > I second that. I wonder which vendor did the sales job on GM and Dodge to install such a system. I do not see the advantage of letting 1/2 of the front drive train spin. Why not just lock it and let the whole thing spin (like Subarus and probably some other I do not know about). It is much simpler and more reliable. How many times do you see C.A.D. actuator failures in this newsgroup? -- ________________ Rob Munach, PE Excel Engineering Carrboro, NC FROM: Scott Altice SUBJECT: Re: Manual hubs question DATE: Tue, 04 May 1999 01:34:19 GMT NEWSGROUPS: rec.autos.4x4 Willem-Jan Markerink wrote: > > The problem is that the spider gears inside your diff are not ment for > continuous rotation at high speed....most (if not all) don't even have true > bearings, they just spin on a shaft. {clip} All 94-up Dodge 4x4's use a CAD (central axle disconnect) on the right side. The hubs are locked all the time, so the left axle turns, while the right intermediate axle couter-rotates in 2WD. The right outer axle rotates w/the tire, but is disconnected from the differential (2WD). This is the same as locking one hub on a truck w/locking hubs. I've had no problems w/my differential side gears on my Dodge. Axle U-joints are a different matter... A little extra drag (friction), and more U-joint wear maybe, but damage? Doubt it... -Scott Altice 95 Dodge 2500HD/Cummins/4x4 From: "CHRIS COLLUM" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80] Constant 4WD - AND hub locks Date sent: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 20:55:10 +1100 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com -----Original Message----- From: David Zilm >"Gabriel R.D." wrote: >> Peter Mathew wrote: >> > >> > Dave, thats the mob in the article I have and SC4WD still deals with them. >> > Northern ARB (thomastown - Melbourne, Victoria, Australia) are have also >> > had the kit (locally produced) avail for a while. Recently somebody else >> > has identified the demand, and also produced a kit. >> > >> >> Guys, >> I'm aware of this full time to part time 4wd conversion, but I was >> refering to just whacking the free wheeling hubs on the front and >> leaving the x-fer case alone.... I figured there would be some benefit >> in it because the entire front drivetrain would be under no load, there >> would be friction losses but i would guess that it would be a lot less >> than when actually transmitting power to front wheels... >> Just a thought. >> > >wont do the centre diff any good with the front hubs disengaged. I would >not expect to see any gains - since you are still turning the front end >(but under no load). > if you just put free wheeling hubs on they will last about 500km since the axle into the fwhub has no bearing where it mount into the free wheeling part of hub it is designed to only spin with the hub locked or not at all (unlocked)I have seen many mine and council vechiels running in 4wd without hubs locked and they self destruct fairly quickly.dont do it. FROM: Max Cosworth SUBJECT: Would locking just ONE hub cause damage? DATE: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 18:59:51 -0700 NEWSGROUPS: rec.autos.4x4 What, if any damage can be caused to the transmission if a vandal or careless person were to lock one 4wd hub and leave the other free? I have a mild paranoia about this sometimes. This specifically applies to a 1996 Toyota Tacoma 4wd w/manual hubs. Thanks for info. Max FROM: w.j.markerink@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) SUBJECT: Re: Would locking just ONE hub cause damage? DATE: Sat, 05 Aug 00 17:42:37 GMT ORGANIZATION: A1 Internet news-server NEWSGROUPS: rec.autos.4x4 In article , Max Cosworth wrote: >What, if any damage can be caused to the transmission if a vandal or >careless person were to lock one 4wd hub and leave the other free? I >have a mild paranoia about this sometimes. The gears inside a diff are not designed to rotate/spin continuously. They don't even have bearings....only designed for mild rpm's. This is one effect of the fact that the drive-shaft will have more resistance than the other half-shaft, so in most cases the other half-shaft will be rotating, and hence the inside of the diff spin madly. The other side-effect is that this idling half-shaft will cause the stub-end to spin freely, not supported by the outer bearing (it's only supported when engaged). This on itself is already a big nono in case *both* hubs are unlocked, and you engage 4wd (obviously from a standstill, otherwise the T-case gears will protest vehemently, since the front drive train wasn't spinning at all, and has to get up to driving speed in a split-second....don't try this at home kids!).... (the same when in 2wd-low is less bad, since the rpm's aren't high (manouevering trailers etc)) More hub-mania at: http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/hub_lock.txt (posted & mailed) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] FROM: "JJ" SUBJECT: Re: Would locking just ONE hub cause damage? DATE: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 14:49:51 -0400 ORGANIZATION: MindSpring Enterprises NEWSGROUPS: rec.autos.4x4 Willem-Jan Markerink wrote in message news:8mhjju$qmd$9@news.a1.nl... > In article , > Max Cosworth wrote: > >What, if any damage can be caused to the transmission if a vandal or > >careless person were to lock one 4wd hub and leave the other free? I > >have a mild paranoia about this sometimes. > > The gears inside a diff are not designed to rotate/spin continuously. > They don't even have bearings....only designed for mild rpm's. > > This is one effect of the fact that the drive-shaft will have more > resistance than the other half-shaft, so in most cases the other half-shaft > will be rotating, and hence the inside of the diff spin madly. The other > side-effect is that this idling half-shaft will cause the stub-end to spin > freely, not supported by the outer bearing (it's only supported when > engaged). > > This on itself is already a big nono in case *both* hubs are unlocked, and > you engage 4wd (obviously from a standstill, otherwise the T-case gears > will protest vehemently, since the front drive train wasn't spinning at > all, and has to get up to driving speed in a split-second....don't try this > at home kids!).... > (the same when in 2wd-low is less bad, since the rpm's aren't high > (manouevering trailers etc)) > > More hub-mania at: > > http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/hub_lock.txt > > (posted & mailed) not supported by any outer bearing????? not true.. leaving one locked and one free will not cause any problems (unless your out of gear oil or have water contamination). Dodge 4x4's have used a disconnect on the front right axle shaft as long as I can remember. and they have fewer u-joint problems than ford or chev. spiders bearings? the environment they run in (oil-bath) insures there's plenty of oil to provide the hydraulic wedge between the spider and the cross shaft to prevent metal to metal contact. JJ FROM: w.j.markerink@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) SUBJECT: Re: Would locking just ONE hub cause damage? DATE: Sun, 06 Aug 00 12:13:22 GMT ORGANIZATION: A1 Internet news-server NEWSGROUPS: rec.autos.4x4 In article <8mhnf9$2o0$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, "JJ" wrote: >Willem-Jan Markerink wrote in message >news:8mhjju$qmd$9@news.a1.nl... >> In article , >> Max Cosworth wrote: >> >What, if any damage can be caused to the transmission if a vandal or >> >careless person were to lock one 4wd hub and leave the other free? I >> >have a mild paranoia about this sometimes. >> >> The gears inside a diff are not designed to rotate/spin continuously. >> They don't even have bearings....only designed for mild rpm's. >> >> This is one effect of the fact that the drive-shaft will have more >> resistance than the other half-shaft, so in most cases the other half-shaft >> will be rotating, and hence the inside of the diff spin madly. The other >> side-effect is that this idling half-shaft will cause the stub-end to spin >> freely, not supported by the outer bearing (it's only supported when >> engaged). >> >> This on itself is already a big nono in case *both* hubs are unlocked, and >> you engage 4wd (obviously from a standstill, otherwise the T-case gears >> will protest vehemently, since the front drive train wasn't spinning at >> all, and has to get up to driving speed in a split-second....don't try this >> at home kids!).... >> (the same when in 2wd-low is less bad, since the rpm's aren't high >> (manouevering trailers etc)) >> >> More hub-mania at: >> >> http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/hub_lock.txt >> >> (posted & mailed) >> >not supported by any outer bearing????? not true.. Not sure if all brands/designs are identical, but on several (including Land Cruisers) there is less support, more play, and a large chance of damage in the long run. >leaving one locked and one free will not cause any problems (unless your out >of gear oil or have water contamination). > >Dodge 4x4's have used a disconnect on the front right axle shaft as long as >I can remember. and they have fewer u-joint problems than ford or chev. Ah yes, but these don't have a T-case disconnect....hence all stuff rotates at almost the same rpm (give and take some differences in corners). And the outer stub is not disconnected, hence it is supported as with any other engaged hub. >spiders bearings? the environment they run in (oil-bath) insures there's >plenty of oil to provide the hydraulic wedge between the spider and the >cross shaft to prevent metal to metal contact. I am sure this argument applies to lots of other applications where bearings are a must. Did you read the articles I referred to? It is not uncommon to grenade a diff by excessive rpm differences....lighter cars stuck half-side on ice are prime examples. A 4x4 diff is of course much stronger, but there is still a limitation in design. -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] FROM: Chris Part SUBJECT: Leaving Hubs Locked DATE: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 07:24:43 +1000 ORGANIZATION: dingo blue pty ltd NEWSGROUPS: aus.cars.offroad This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Hi Guys I have just been told that it is ok to leave you hubs locked all the time (on a part time 4wd) as long as you are in 2wd. Can anyone with a bit of mechanical knowledge confirm or deny that? I have a Hilux and have always been told to run the hubs in free if i wasnt running in 4wd. Thanks Chris FROM: w.j.markerink@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) SUBJECT: Re: Leaving Hubs Locked DATE: Mon, 20 Aug 01 21:51:43 GMT NEWSGROUPS: aus.cars.offroad In article <3B81801A.B9B8B0DA@dingoblue.com.au>, Chris Part wrote: >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >Hi Guys > >I have just been told that it is ok to leave you hubs locked all the >time (on a part time 4wd) as long as you are in 2wd. Can anyone with a >bit of mechanical knowledge confirm or deny that? Confirm. >I have a Hilux and have always been told to run the hubs in free if i >wasnt running in 4wd. If you ever see or notice what happens if a front drive train hasn't rotated for several months, you'll never do that again. Under the right climatic conditions, at least the top half of your diff starts to rust, if not some bearings as well....end result is a nasty vibration, and a costly replacement. Most Yanks cry foul if you advise them to run their hubs locked, partly due to the myth that there is a significant difference in mileage (try topspeed, and you'll notice that this is bogus, unless you run short stretches in cold climates, where the front drive train/oil has to heat up too), and partly because many older USA-vehicles don't have CV-joints (constant velocity), which leads to vibrations in corners (but more so under load than with the joint freewheeling)....yet your Hilux (and all Cruisers & Japanese vehicles, as well as more modern USA-vehicles) does have CV-joints, so neither is an argument. Plus, assuming you have shift-on-the-fly: being able to engage 4wd at speed with the flick of a switch is simply added safety, just in case....one slippery shoulder while passing a vehicle is enough to warrant 4wd.... -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] FROM: "Barbara Smith" SUBJECT: Re: manual locking hubs DATE: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 04:59:09 GMT ORGANIZATION: AT&T Worldnet NEWSGROUPS: rec.autos.4x4 Ben > > > What are manual locking hubs for (other that to enable 4 wheel drive). What > > do they do? Do they need to "snap-in" to their Lock & Free positions? Some 4wd cars, have bushings in the front drivetrain. The solid axel Toyota use bushing in the wheel spindle. Having a locking hub reduce the wear on the bushing. At least that is my theory. On new cars with independent suspension, the axel is supported on bearings. That takes care of the wear. On new Jeep and Toyota with auto locking hubs and bearing on the front drive shafts, only one of the hub unlock, and let the driveshafts and the spider gear in the differential spin, but not the differential carrier itself. Guess they don't want the heavy mass of the differential spinning to reduce fuel consumption. On economy cars with part time 4wd like older Hondas, Subaru, they have no locking hubs for the non driving wheels. Guess in small cars, the differential carrier is so small that it does not affect fuel economy anyway when is spinning free.