From: "Rolland Elliott" To: infrared@a1.nl Subject: DAYLIGHT LOADABLE Kodak B&W Infrared Film for sale $8.45/roll Date sent: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 00:12:40 EDT Send reply to: infrared@a1.nl For sale 35mm 36 exp. Bulk loaded Kodak HIE film for $8.45/roll. This film is loaded in special cassettes that are light tight to IR light, so one can easily load them in full sunlight WITHOUT a changing bag. I also tape on a 5 inch film leader to prevent light piping into the film cassette. Through my tests I have determined that light piping is something that certainly occurs with this film and can cause severe fogging therefore the 5” leader is necessary. Currently I’m using old outdated Fuji Velvia Film as a leader because it is very dark and opque. But I’ll soon run out of this stuff, so other suggestions for a leader would be welcome. For those of you unfamilar with light piping it is the same phenomenom involved in fiberoptic cables. The index of refraction of the film base is such that light will travel down and through it exposing the film inside the casette. However by using a short opaque film leader this problem is easily solved. I've tested this film by leaving it exposed to harsh noon time sunlight for two minutes with NO fogging. This doesn't mean you can be lazy and not take care of the film. I'd still recommend storing it in a black film canister before and after exposure and having it processed as soon as possible. The medium format 120 and 220 IR films I sell should be loaded in subdued light, but this 35mm film can beloaded in harsh sunlight with no problems. Some of you might be scratching your heads wondering why I can offer color infrared film at $7.95 a roll while B&W IR film is more expensive at $8.45 a roll. Well it’s because there is more labor involved in rolling up and taping film leaders to the B&W film, plus the added expense of having to buy the special film canisters and sort through them.. But most importantly, B&W IR film is actually MORE expensive than Color IR film when bought in bulk. Pretty strange when one considers the fact that Kodak markets the color IR film at twice the price of the B&W film when sold in single rolls. Shipping is $3.20 per order anywhere in the USA and as usual I prefer payment via credit card at http://www.paypal.com. Email me off list if you want to buy some. The benefits of using my bulk loaded film are as follows: 1. You can load it in daylight! 2. B&H sells the stuff for a few cents less than $9.00 a roll and their shipping charges are more expensive. 3. Film canisters can be reused instead of just thrown away. 4. Did I mention you can load it in daylight? Perfect for fast pace events or where changing bags are hard to come by; like in the middle of the mountains when you realize the changing bag is still in your car 5 miles away. (I know its happened to me.) Disadvantages: The casettes don't have that cool Kodak Logo. But most of you have probably never seen that cool Kodak logo anyways because you have to always load the film in the dark. If you do your own bulk rolling I’d be glad to sell you the opaque film canisters. Cost is $0.60 cents each. Just remember that some sort of opaque film leader is still necessary because light can pipe through the HIE film base. In my own tests the light piping was so severe that it ruined a whole roll of film, hence the necessity for a leader. Peace, Rolland Date sent: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:40:26 +0200 From: Otto Giesenfeld To: infrared@a1.nl Subject: Re: DAYLIGHT LOADABLE Kodak B&W Infrared Film for sale $8.45/roll Send reply to: infrared@a1.nl --On den 12 juni 2000, 00:12 +0000 Rolland Elliott wrote: > fogging therefore the 5” leader is necessary. Currently I’m using old > outdated Fuji Velvia Film as a leader because it is very dark and opque. But > I’ll soon run out of this stuff, so other suggestions for a leader would be > welcome. For those of you unfamilar with light piping it is the Why not just take the cheapest B/W film you can find, expose the entire film to light and then develop it. The silver image (as opposed to the anti-halation layer) should surely be opaque to IR as well as visible light. It is probably less expensive than new Velvia even when chemistry costs are taken into account. But it may of course be worthwhile to try the leader film without development first. Otto Giesenfeld Date sent: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 07:52:37 -0400 (EDT) From: ADavidhazy Subject: Re: DAYLIGHT LOADABLE Kodak B&W Infrared Film for sale $8.45/roll To: infrared@a1.nl Copies to: ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Send reply to: infrared@a1.nl I had tried this approach (as posted on this list more than a year ago) but could not totally prevent fogging of the film even if the leader (of exposed and developed B&W film) was 18 inches long. It seems that there was considerable leakage past the felt trap ... more than just light piping, and possibly even from the top and bottom of the casette. Andrew o o 0 0 o . o Davidhazy, Imaging and Photo Tech \/\/\/\/\/\/ http://www.rit.edu/~andpph __________| |_____________________________________ From: "Rolland Elliott" To: infrared@a1.nl Subject: Re: DAYLIGHT, LOADABLE, Kodak, B&W, Infrared, Film, for, sale, $8.45/roll Date sent: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:01:25 EDT Send reply to: infrared@a1.nl Andrew wrote: > "I had tried this approach (as posted on this list more than a year ago) but > could not totally prevent fogging of the film even if the leader (of exposed and > developed B&W film) was 18 inches long. It seems that there was considerable > leakage past the felt trap ... more than just light piping, and possibly even > from the top and bottom of the casette." Andrew your failure was probably the result of one or more of the following condtions. 1. You were using casettes with transparent IR felts. Almost all bulk loadable film casettes' felts leak IR light. Only a couple of manufacturers use IR opaque felt material and even then they do not consistently use the material. If you look at the casette with an IR camcorder it will either show up as white or black. Never use the white casettes; they leak IR light tremendously. Would you buy color film casettes that had white felt material instead of black? Hopefully your answer is NO. However this is effectively what Kodak is selling you when you buy their preloaded IR film. You just can't see it because you can't see IR light. Under visible light the felt appears black, but under IR illumination the felt is a bright white. 2. Just because you exposed and developed B&W film so that it has an opaque emulsion COATING to IR light DOES NOT mean that the film base will NOT pipe light through to the inside of the casette. If you paint the outside of a fiberoptic cable black it will still transmit light (or pipe the light) from one end of the other. In fact if you paint the outside of a fiberoptic cable with a reflective coating it will actually increase the light transmission or piping. One must use a film base who's index of refraction is such that it doesn't pipe light to the inside of the casette. OR use a material such as black paper that doesn't really have a index of refraction. HIE 's estar base pipes light very well. The entire 12" length of film I had in the casette was exposed when I did not tape on a leader to the film. For those of you rusty on high school physics, Fiber optics and film is able to pipe light because the index of refraction of the material is such that the light is continually reflected off the in sides of the material. If the index of refraction is too high (or maybe it's too low, I'm rusty too) then the light will pass through the material instead of being reflected internally. The index of refraction is a physical property of the material and the ability of a material to pipe light is somewhat independent of what paint or emulsion you coat the ouside of the material with. Unexposed Velvia works fine, I'm going to try some Ektachrome Dupe film unexposed next. I have a whole stock pile of that stuff I got for $6 per 100 feet. Peace, Rolland Date sent: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:39:54 -0400 (EDT) From: ADavidhazy Subject: Re: DAYLIGHT, LOADABLE, Kodak, B&W, Infrared, Film, for, sale, $8.45/roll To: infrared@a1.nl Copies to: ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Send reply to: infrared@a1.nl Rolland, > 1. You were using casettes with transparent IR felts. Almost all bulk > loadable film casettes' felts leak IR light. Only a couple of manufacturers > use IR opaque felt material and even then they do not consistently use the > material. You are very right on this. I did not check on IR opaqueness or reflectivity of of the felt material. Was using standard "non-reloadable" Kodak and Fuji casettes (but reloading by attaching raw stock to the end stub). > 2. Just because you exposed and developed B&W film so that it has an > opaque emulsion COATING to IR light DOES NOT mean that the film base will NOT > pipe light through to the inside of the casette. Agreed. But this I had checked out and there was no "piping" taking place. I had used Tech Pan and T-Max 100 processed to D-max as leaders. cheerio, Andrew o o 0 0 o . o Davidhazy, Imaging and Photo Tech \/\/\/\/\/\/ http://www.rit.edu/~andpph __________| |_____________________________________ Date sent: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:29:29 +0200 From: Otto Giesenfeld To: infrared@a1.nl Subject: Re: DAYLIGHT, LOADABLE, Kodak, B&W, Infrared, Film, for, sale, $8.45/roll Send reply to: infrared@a1.nl --On den 12 juni 2000, 13:39 -0400 ADavidhazy wrote: >> 2. Just because you exposed and developed B&W film so that it has an >> opaque emulsion COATING to IR light DOES NOT mean that the film base will NOT >> pipe light through to the inside of the casette. > > Agreed. But this I had checked out and there was no "piping" taking place. I > had used Tech Pan and T-Max 100 processed to D-max as leaders. > For a developed B&W emulsion not to stop light from piping through the film, the indices of refraction would have to be quite different between the base and the emulsion. While this is not impossible, it does at least seem unlikely that they would differ enough to prevent film-base light from leaking into the emulsion. After all, you might then get light-piping even with visible light and panchromatic film, as the antihalation layer is not part of the actual base. Anyway, the above assumptions seem to be in agreement with Mr. Davidhazy's observations. Otto Giesenfeld