To: Offroadlist Cc: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com From: Willem-Jan Markerink Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 00:23:31 +0200 Subject: [pinzgauer] Octane lowering Reply-To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com While searching for info about the Beijing-Paris MotorChallenge, I stumbled upon this site/article, finally confirming the remark of two guys at the Motormuseum in Riga/Letvia, that they added petroleum to the gasoline, to obtain 72 octane (which they could no longer buy in Letvia), otherwise their old Russian gazguzzling (multifuel?) oldtimers wouldn't start....:)) http://www.citroentuning.de/testimonials.html 1/2 gasoline, 1/2 kerosene, resulting in 70 octane.... PS: anyone know the octane limits of a modern bush-going gasoline like Land Cruiser? At least the 1FZ-FE generation would match the rpm-requirements for our Volvo....and being electronic, it would/should automatically adjust for lower octane. Btw, here anecdotic evidence that pre-WWII gasoline offered even only 40 octane....:)) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline Now I only need to know the mathematics/linearity of adding kerosene to gasoline.... (like 3/4 gasoline + 1/4 kerosene would make (3x95)+(1x55)/4 = 85?) (sample above was (X+95)/2 = 70 octane, means X = 55 = octane rating of kerosene) (if they used 87 octane gasoline, then X would become 63, and the other calculation results in 81 octane instead of 85) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com From: "John Light" Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 21:55:58 -0000 Subject: [pinzgauer] Re: Octane lowering Reply-To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com > > While searching for info about the Beijing-Paris MotorChallenge, I > stumbled upon this site/article, finally confirming the remark of two > > guys at the Motormuseum in Riga/Letvia, that they added petroleum to > the gasoline, to obtain 72 octane (which they could no longer buy in > Letvia), otherwise their old Russian gazguzzling (multifuel?) > oldtimers wouldn't start....:)) > > http://www.citroentuning.de/testimonials.html > > 1/2 gasoline, 1/2 kerosene, resulting in 70 octane.... > > > PS: anyone know the octane limits of a modern bush-going gasoline > like Land Cruiser? > At least the 1FZ-FE generation would match the rpm-requirements for > our Volvo....and being electronic, it would/should automatically > adjust for lower octane. > > Btw, here anecdotical evidence that pre-WWII gasoline offered even > only 40 octane....:)) > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline > > Now I only need to know the mathematics/linearity of adding kerosene > to gasoline.... > (like 3/4 gasoline + 1/4 kerosene would make (3x95)+(1x55)/4 = 85?) > > (sample above was (X+95)/2 = 70 octane, means X = 55 = octane rating > of kerosene) > (if they used 87 octane gasoline, then X would become 63, and the > other calculation results in 81 octane instead of 85) I was watching Cool Fuel the road trip on the Tv and during the ethanol episode there was a remark about any vehicle could run ethanol as long a bio diesel was added. Still trying to find out how much they meant. http://www.coolfuelroadtrip.com/technology.htm So, I' looking for the mixture of e85 and possibly biodiesel to do the job. As a side note last year My Pinz ran a lot of gasoline/ diesel mix. Dennis had a couple of customers new to Diesel trucks fill up with gasonline out of habit. This ruins the fuel pump and the injectors (no lubrication in gasoline, where as diesel fuel lubricates the components) The only thought here is for a North American Spec (NAS) vehicle is how long the O2 (Oxygen) sensors will last because of the addition of the particulates from the Diesel fuel. O2 sensors don't seem to like contaminates which tend to reduce their efficiency. Dennis currently has about 60 gallons more gallons of diesel fuel adulterated with gasoline for me to run in the Pinz again (2 more vehicles with diesel diluted with gas (yes new fuel pumps and injectors). I' still afraid to put it in the neon and try out the O2 life. To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com From: Ian Rawlings Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 23:11:38 +0100 Subject: Re: [pinzgauer] Re: Octane lowering Reply-To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com On Sun, May 20, 2007 at 09:55:58PM -0000, John Light wrote: > As a side note last year My Pinz ran a lot of gasoline/ diesel mix. > Dennis had a couple of customers new to Diesel trucks fill up with > gasonline out of habit. This ruins the fuel pump and the injectors > (no lubrication in gasoline, where as diesel fuel lubricates the > components) Hmm, does anyone know how well the pinz runs on a petrol/diesel mix and what percentage of diesel can be added before it starts having trouble? I ask because you can apparently get diesel contaminated petrol over here and be paid to take it away.. -- Ian Rawlings, South/South West of England 1973 Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer 712M 1989 Lotus Esprit Turbo SE 1994 Land Rover Defender 110 To: From: "Dennis" Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 21:33:28 -0600 Subject: RE: [pinzgauer] Re: Octane lowering Reply-To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com From: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ian Rawlings Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 4:12 PM To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [pinzgauer] Re: Octane lowering > Hmm, does anyone know how well the pinz runs on a petrol/diesel mix > and what percentage of diesel can be added before it starts having > trouble? I ask because you can apparently get diesel contaminated > petrol over here and be paid to take it away.. Ian As John has mentioned we have lots of diesel/petrol cocktails available. John used a goodly drop last year in his Pinz and I would imagine it was a 50/50 mix. We have loads more to burn. The engine will run fine especially when hot but can be a bugger to start when cold. I often used as much as a 75% diesel cocktail in my 1949 E9A Tin Lizzy when I was a student in Glos back in the 60/70=92s. I got diesel on the cheap and for free when doing fuel repairs in the British Leyland truck shop where is worked as an apprentice. So I would mix my own cocktails depending upon how much cash I had. Besides I used to waste money trying to compete in 250cc motorcycle racing with a Royal Enfield Crusader, so every drop helped. I had a petrol header pot rigged up on the carb for neat petrol start ups, then to switch to almost neat diesel once it got hot. My dear old Mah would often comment about the smoke from the back when we went neat diesel, saying "ere son this bloody car smokes a bit dunnit?" Bless her. Long gone now! I tried alcohol for a while from distilled spuds when running a Still as an experiment in the college where I studied, until the head of the MV dept (a Dutchman) shut me down calling me a stupid boy obviously of Irish decent and we could have all been arrested. I suggest you get the stuff and experiment with starting and smoke tolerance. Besides if you have a tailgater just pull the choke a back off is guaranteed! Enjoy Dennis To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com From: "milesdzyn" Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 05:27:32 -0000 Subject: [pinzgauer] Re: Octane lowering Reply-To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com --- In pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis" wrote: > > Ian > > As John has mentioned we have lots of diesel/petrol cocktails available. > > John used a goodly drop last year in his Pinz and I would imagine it was a > 50/50 mix. > > > > We have loads more to burn. The engine will run fine especially when hot but > can be a bugger to start when cold. I often used as much as a 75% Dennis...Is there a way to determine the percentage of mixture, say some sort of hydrometer of sorts? I like cheap and free. I know some guys at U-haul and they are forever getting their trucks back with mixed fuels in the tanks. Miles To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com From: Ian Rawlings Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 06:45:10 +0100 Subject: Re: [pinzgauer] Re: Octane lowering Reply-To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com Dennis wrote: > Ian > > As John has mentioned we have lots of diesel/petrol cocktails available. > > John used a goodly drop last year in his Pinz and I would imagine it was > a 50/50 mix. > > > We have loads more to burn. The engine will run fine especially when hot > but can be a bugger to start when cold. I often used as much as a 75% > diesel cocktail in my 1949 E9A Tin Lizzy when I was a student in Glos > back in the 60/70=E2=80=99s. I got diesel on the cheap and for free when doing > fuel repairs in the British Leyland truck shop where is worked as an > apprentice. So I would mix my own cocktails depending upon how much cash > I had. Besides I used to waste money trying to compete in 250cc > motorcycle racing with a Royal Enfield Crusader, so every drop helped. > > I had a petrol header pot rigged up on the carb for neat petrol start > ups, then to switch to almost neat diesel once it got hot. > > My dear old Mah would often comment about the smoke from the back when > we went neat diesel, saying "ere son this bloody car smokes a bit > dunnit?" Bless her. Long gone now! > > I tried alcohol for a while from distilled spuds when running a Still as > an experiment in the college where I studied, until the head of the MV > dept (a Dutchman) shut me down calling me a stupid boy obviously of > Irish decent and we could have all been arrested. > > I suggest you get the stuff and experiment with starting and smoke > tolerance. Besides if you have a tailgater just pull the choke a back > off is guaranteed! > > Enjoy > > Dennis Thanks Dennis, I think I'll have a look into this if it makes the pinz cheaper to run, fuel over here is currently the equivalent of $6 per U.S. gallon... My next question was going to be "how to determine the mix" but I see someone's beaten me to that ;-) I'm assuming from your lack of stark warnings that there was no appreciable nasty after-effects, although I reckon I'd run a full tank of neat petrol fairly regularly. To: From: "Dennis" Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 07:47:05 -0600 Subject: RE: [pinzgauer] Re: Octane lowering Reply-To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com From: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of milesdzyn Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 11:28 PM To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com Subject: [pinzgauer] Re: Octane lowering > Dennis...Is there a way to determine the percentage of mixture, say=20 > some sort of hydrometer of sorts? I like cheap and free. I know some=20 > guys at U-haul and they are forever getting their trucks back with=20 > mixed fuels in the tanks. > > Miles Miles We use the pyrotechnic method!=20 That=92s cheap & simple. Take a sample, throw it on a sheet of metal and then throw a flaming match at it. If it flares up petrol! (gasoline). To be sure on fuel quality we always run the engine on a slave tank and pump with a known delivery to diagnose driveability/smoke/running problems. Cummins 5.9 engines for example =93no like=92 even small amounts above about 10% and the Ford HI Corn binder engine is not much better at tolerance either. Dennis To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com From: "John Light" Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 14:04:44 -0000 Subject: [pinzgauer] Re: Octane lowering Reply-To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com Last year I used the error on the side of safety method. I would fill up 5 gallon(20 liter) gas cans. I would dump one 5 gallon can in every fill up in the fuel tank until people complained. Then I would stop using the adulterated fuel for a couple of fill ups. Amazingly it would take up to 7 or 8 tanks of straight gasoline to totaly stop the smoking of the pinz. Near the end of the summer I would put in a 5'er of the mixed to every other fill up. So, if the 5 gallon can was 50/50 and then added to a tank full of straight gasoline it was roughly 5 of 17 gallons. Or, approximately 2.5 gallons of diesel to about 17 gallons of gasoline. Thye smoking occured at low speed and de-acceleration. At highway speed there was no smoking (high enough temperature to keep the diesel burning). So you could alter accordingly. On the freeway only you could probably go a higher mixture of diesel. To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com From: Ian Rawlings Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 17:42:12 +0100 Subject: Re: [pinzgauer] Re: Octane lowering Reply-To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com On Mon, May 21, 2007 at 02:04:44PM -0000, John Light wrote: > Thye smoking occured at low speed and de-acceleration. At highway > speed there was no smoking (high enough temperature to keep the diesel > burning). So you could alter accordingly. On the freeway only you > could probably go a higher mixture of diesel. Well I just whacked in 20 litres of diesel into a half-full tank so that's about 30% diesel at a guess, I got reduced low-end torque and pinking at low revs under load but I get pinking on neat petrol when it's raining too so I'll give the dizzy a tweak backwards, anyone got suggestions as to how much, given I've never even owned a vehicle with a distributor before let alone fiddled with it.... Other than the pinking and slightly reduced power, it didn't smoke much and I've found a free source of fuel, it's more petrol than diesel which is fine, basically a garage who gets cars in where the owner has filled up a diesel car with petrol. They are only too happy to give me the fuel as they have to pay to get it disposed of. What they do otherwise is to store the fuel in a large drum and when they scrap a car they put the fuel in the scrap car's tank and get less cash from the scrap merchant to cover the cost of the fuel disposal, so if any other British pinzers are thinking of having a go then scrap yards might work. Also van rental places, the local one has a repair depot who regularly have to extract petrol from diesel van tanks and then pay to have it disposed of. If I can get the pinking sorted out and the low-end torque returns then I reckon this scheme will fly. The pinz might even end up as the daily drive if I can fuel it for free ;-) -- Ian Rawlings, South/South West of England 1973 Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer 712M 1989 Lotus Esprit Turbo SE 1994 Land Rover Defender 110 To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com From: "Pat Leonard" Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 01:43:35 -0000 Subject: [pinzgauer] One more time with the Diesel fuel Reply-To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com What do the experts say about using the gas - diesel mix in the pinz engine? I am mildly concerned with the extra energy content in diesel fuel. Does the engine run hotter? Is starting going to be a problem in cold weather? If the Pinz sits for a while, will the fuel separate? I live near a pipeline terminal. My understanding is that they have mixed product for sale all the time, so I would love to save some money on fuel. Pat Leonard To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com From: "John Light" Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 03:33:33 -0000 Subject: [pinzgauer] Re: One more time with the Diesel fuel Reply-To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com Pat in my expert (ex is a has been and spurt is a drip under pressure) opinion. I run a LITTLE of the mixed product in the summer. One time, I mixed a lot of the mixed stuff in. Then I noticed a loss of power while the engine was warming up. Since then I mix sparingly. For hiway use. I start out at a full 20 liter can when I fill up and then depending on how it runs, a 1/2 to full 20 liter can at every fill max. At lower speeds, I do the 1/2 a 20 liter can at fill up or less. Can't tell you about cold starts, but would assume it would be harder to start with the diesel mix due to the lower temp. The mix runs better on hotter days. Have not had a problem with the fuel seperating. If only it would, then I would let sit and seperate the diesel from the gasoline and run the gasonline and sell the diesel. Hope that helps. To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com From: paul martz Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 23:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [pinzgauer] Re: One more time with the Diesel fuel Reply-To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com Would you convert to gallon mix please. I run a 1975 710M and wonder if a mix would work. So would you or Dennis advise about a mix by US measurements and how it would work. 710 is daily driver with motor always reaching max temp. no very short trips. Thanks, Paul To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com From: "John Light" Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 14:16:56 -0000 Subject: [pinzgauer] Re: One more time with the Diesel fuel Reply-To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com Ok Paul, I get a batch of what ever. When do you fill up your tank? when it was full, 1/2 full or empty. Same with the guy who oopsed and filled his dieseltank with gaoline.I would say it is safe to assume it is somewhere betewwen 60%gas/40%diesel mix or as low as 90% gas/10% diesel. I then mix in 5 gallons of that in to a fillup so: if the mix was 75% gas /25 % diesel that would be about 1.5 gallon of diesel in a 5 gallon can as I have mentioned adding to a tank of gasoline at a fill up. I can't see mixing diesl for the sake of mixing diesel. I would only do the mix method if you have access to inexpensive (in my case FREE diesel/gasoline contaminated) fuel. If you must mix a special batch, I suggest you start out at a 1/5 gallon of diesel fuel per full tank of gasoline, than increase up until you hit what ever you are trying for. Note: this ratio is good at 6000 feet. You might have to adjust for lower altitudes. To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com From: "J" Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 15:19:51 -0000 Subject: [pinzgauer] Re: One more time with the Diesel fuel Reply-To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com --- In pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com, paul martz wrote: > > Would you convert to gallon mix please. I run a 1975 710M and wonder > if a mix would work. So would you or Dennis advise about a mix by US > measurements and how it would work. 710 is daily driver with motor > always reaching max temp. no very short trips. Thanks, Paul One gallon is about 3.78 liters. Is not that difficult to convert Paul... do you dirve a Pinzgauer?? ;) The Congress finds as follows: (1) The United States was an original signatory party to the 1875 Treaty of the Meter (20 Stat. 709), which established the General Conference of Weights and Measures, the International Committee of Weights and Measures and the International Bureau of Weights and Measures. (2) Although the use of metric measurement standards in the United States has been authorized by law since 1866 (Act of July 28, 1866; 14 Stat. 339), this Nation today is the only industrially developed nation which has not established a national policy of committing itself and taking steps to facilitate conversion to the metric system. (3) World trade is increasingly geared towards the metric system of measurement. (4) Industry in the United States is often at a competitive disadvantage when dealing in international markets because of its nonstandard measurement system, and is sometimes excluded when it is unable to deliver goods which are measured in metric terms. (5) The INHERENT SIMPLICITY of the metric system of measurement and standardization of weights and measures has led to major cost savings in certain industries which have converted to that system. (6) The Federal Government has a responsibility to develop procedures and techniques to assist industry, especially small business, as it voluntarily converts to the metric system of measurement. (7) The metric system of measurement can provide substantial advantages to the Federal Government in its own operations. To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com, volvo303@yahoogroups.com Cc: offroadlist , Land Cruiser Mailing From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 20:05:20 +0200 Subject: [pinzgauer] Re: One more time with the Diesel fuel Reply-To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com [originally Pinzgauer list] On 5 Jun 2007 at 1:43, Pat Leonard wrote: > What do the experts say about using the gas - diesel mix in the pinz > engine? I am mildly concerned with the extra energy content in diesel > fuel. Does the engine run hotter? Is starting going to be a problem > in cold weather? If the Pinz sits for a while, will the fuel separate? > > I live near a pipeline terminal. My understanding is that they have > mixed product for sale all the time, so I would love to save some money > on fuel. > > Pat Leonard Sorry, no specifics in that context, but in the general context of gasoline/diesel mix variations, I learned about a *lovely* new anecdote/datapoint today: A guy in Germany is only able start his GAZ69 (with engine from GAZ 21 (don't ask, no clue....;)) in winter with a 25/75 diesel/gasoline mix. Mind you, this is a *gasoline* engine....:)))) And I also learned that kerosene is frost-proof until -60C, while gasoline becomes solid at -45C (thought that it was much better). (Jet A seems only frost-proof till -40C as well, but Jet B equals the good kerosene) (some links here, but only in German context/thread: http://www.c303.de/c303-forum/index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=7678 http://xrl.us/wuet (Link to www.c303.de) So, contrary to popular belief/method, while pooring gasoline to diesel to get it frost-proof, one should add diesel to gasoline for easier starting (and add kerosene to get it more frost-proof). Willem (becoming more confused every day....:)) Jan PS: if there is one thing good about multifuel-engines, then it is the fact that you don't have to worry about all this compatibility/damage stuff anymore....:)))) (but given all these 'common' mixtures, the definition of 'multifuel- engine' ain't becoming any easier either....8-)) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 14:13:27 -0700 To: Land Cruiser Mailing From: John Bricker Subject: Re: [LCML] One more time with the Diesel fuel Reply-To: Land Cruiser Mailing Howdy! When I lived in Wyoming and it was below 0`F, it was the diesels that had to add thinner to their fuel tanks, not the gassers. Is that due to fuel addatives?? John To: Land Cruiser Mailing , Offroadlist@googlegroups.com Cc: Pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com, Volvo303@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 00:29:38 +0200 Subject: [Volvo303] Re: One more time with the Diesel fuel Reply-To: Volvo303@yahoogroups.com On 5 Jun 2007 at 14:13, John Bricker wrote: > Howdy! When I lived in Wyoming and it was below 0`F, it was the > diesels that had to add thinner to their fuel tanks, not the > gassers. Is that due to fuel addatives?? John Keep in mind that adding gasoline to diesel is meant to keep the diesel flowing, while adding diesel to gasoline is meant to lower the octane rating, which apparently is the only way to start a gasoline engine that is (too)low on compression. IOW: flow/logistics vs combustion. However, since it also appears that adding minor amounts of diesel to gasoline doesn't result any detrimental effects, I also wonder what such a mixture does in terms of vapor lock....could only improve, not? Willem (who's all-time favorite German word is 'Zweckentfremdung' (goal- alienating)....:)) Jan -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] http://www.xor.org.uk/silkroute/equipment/choosevan.htm xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 2. In the UK "petrol" is used as a short form of "petroleum spirit" meaning "a mixture of hydrocarbons containing 5 to 8 carbon atoms, boiling in the range 40-180°C." It is called "gasoline" or just "gas" by almost everybody else. (As an aside, comparable hydrocarbons with 11 or 12 carbon atoms are called "kerosine" or "paraffin" and those with 13 to 25 are called "diesel" or (just to add to the confusion) "gas oil".) xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://www.c303.de/c303-forum/index.php?board=36;action=display;threadid=8202;start=msg52728#msg52728 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Klaus S. Re:E85 und Fehlbetankungssprit « Antwort #11 am: 07.Mai 2008 21:14:10 » Antwort mit Zitat Also das mit der Dieselbeimischung in den alten Russen kann ich nur bestätigen. Mein GAZ69 lief nur mit Dieselbeimischung. Mit "normalen" Sprit konnte ich ihn nicht einmal starten. Da war der Motor vom M24 drin (Moskowitsch). Ob unser Volvo das verträgt Gruß Klaus Was nicht tötet, macht hart. Was tötet war zu hart! xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx