From:             "Mark Schmid (PSI)" 
To:               <80_series@palladium.corp.sgi.com>
Subject:          Re: [80] Kiddie ExploSafe fuel can source desired
Date sent:        Fri, 8 May 1998 10:16:14 -0700
Send reply to:    80_series@palladium.corp.sgi.com

>
>john clelland wrote:
>
>> on 5/6/98 7:44 PM, Bill Ferreira wrote:
>>
>> >Does "NATO approved" necessarily mean safe? Government approved in this
>> >country certainly doesn't imply safety.
>> >
>> >The problem addressed by ExploSafe cans is the rapid heating, sufficient
to
>> >result in an explosion, from the compression of the can in an accident.
No
>> >matter how thick the steel on the NATO can, it is not going to take much
of
>> >an accident to compress it to the point of detonation. Do the NATO cans
>> >address this problem?
>>
>> your correct, the "government approval" means next to nothing.
>>
>> ok, you have a explosafe can on your vehicle..in an accident, what is to
>> stop the vehicle's own gas tank from exploding?
>>
>> bill, i was not implying that a NATO approved gas can would survive a
>> direct hit in an accident...after all, this is a container holding
>> volatile gas we are talking about.
>> obviously, a lot of the safety when carrying a spare gas can, is knowing
>> where to safely store it while driving.
>>
>> remember, gas cans don't kill....people do ;-)
>>
>> john clelland, TLCA # 6686                          acme outfitters
>
>I heard that a full gas tank is safer than a partially filled one in the event
>of a collision/crushing of the tank. Something  to do with fuel vapors being
>more dangerous than the liquid. Can anyone in the know confirm?
>Ronny Gabrieloff
>

The vapors burn, not the liquid. If temperature of gasoline is reduced to
approx -45F [-43C], it will not release enough vapors to maintain combustion. 
This is its flash point. Diesel has a FP of +126F [+52C] thru +204F [+95C]. 
It must be heated to maintain combustion. Therefore, if a empty fuel tank/can 
is ripped open during a collision and at the same time there is a spark or
other ignition, then there may be more immediate vapors to burn. Boom. A
full tank may not see the same violent explosion, just rapid developing
flames as the fuel is vaporized.

Gasoline in a fuel tank/can does not detonate. Detonation (as related to
explosives) is a reaction moving greater than the speed of sound. The shock
wave maintains the reaction. No matter how hard or fast you squeeze a gas
tank, it will not detonate. Even a BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapor
explosion) as may occur with pressurized flammable liquid tanks (propane,
butane, MAPP, etc.) is not a detonation.

IMHO the best approval to look for is that of the insurance companies, such
as FM, IRI, etc. They have the most to lose in a accident/failure. Their
testing labs and approval process is thorough. Even UL, CAS, etc. are not as
strict as FM.

Based on every fire test I have witnessed, steel is the best performer in a
fire. Plastic will melt through quickly and spill the liquid on the floor.
This results in both a vertical and horizontal spreading fire and the
plastic container itself contributes to the fire. Even when a steel
container fails due to pressure, splitting at the seams or repturing the
top, the resulting fire is less severe than one with plastic containers.
>From a safety standpoint, the best steel containers will have a pressure
relief device or will be designed to fail at a low pressure.

Mark Schmid





xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

From:             "Mark Schmid (PSI)" 
To:               <80_series@palladium.corp.sgi.com>
Subject:          Re: [80] Kiddie ExploSafe fuel can source desired
Date sent:        Mon, 11 May 1998 10:14:06 -0700
Send reply to:    80_series@palladium.corp.sgi.com


>> The vapors burn, not the liquid. If temperature of gasoline is reduced to
>> approx -45F, it will not release enough vapors to maintain combustion. This
>> is its flash point. Diesel has a FP of +126F thru +204F. It must be heated
>
> Where is this FP-range related to?
> Different pressures?
> Should be the same for gasoline, not?
> Or is this addressing the different formula's of diesel/kerosene?
>
> --
> Bye,
>
> Willem-Jan Markerink


The Flash Point will change with pressure/temperature. But, the FP is
related to the rate at which a liquid vaporizes, which depends on a liquids
vapor pressure. Vaporization increases with rises in temperature. Because
the FP is generally a concern with liquids open to the atmosphere, FP is
usually given in temperature at atmospheric pressure. The FP of both diesel
& gasloine will vary due the formula used. Higher octane gasoline will have
a lower FP but a higher ignition temperature. Hence, its resistance to
knocking. Other ingredients will have similar effects. But, diesel does seem
to vary in FP much more than gasoline. Not exactly sure why.

Mark Schmid




xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: 		"Mark Schmid (PSI)" 
To: 		<80_series@palladium.corp.sgi.com>
Subject: 	Re: [80] diesel vs kerosene
Date: 		Mon, 18 May 1998 09:40:52 -0700
Reply-To: 	80_series@palladium.corp.sgi.com

>Btw, for those playing with fuel cocktails: does kerosene have a
>higher or a lower flashpoing than diesel?
>Being used in planes, I assume a higher flashpoint?
>
>Bye,
>
>Willem-Jan Markerink


Lower. 
Kerosene has a flashpoint of 100F-162F (38C-72C/WJ). 
Diesel varies between 126F and 204F (52C-96C/WJ). 
Jet fuels also vary a lot. 
Jet A and jet A-1 have a FP between 100F and 150F (38C-66C/WJ), 
close to that of off the shelf kerosene. 
However, both Jet B and FP-4 have a FP between -10F thru +30F (-23C/-1C/WJ) 

Big difference.

Mark Schmid









xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuels/diesel/Diesel_Spec.shtm

http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/diesel/

If you have any question, remark, comment, want to share some philosophy or just want to express your opinion about these pages, feel free to send email to: w.j.markerink @ a1.nl