http://www.gbmarketing.co.nz/walbro.htm To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Matt Pozzi" Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 01:26:42 -0000 Subject: [80_aus] Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com A while ago there was a discussion of lift pumps for diesel cruisers and fitting a walbro pump to add some positive boost to the fuel befoer it got to the injection pump. Well I can now tell you it certainly adds some go to the vehicle particularly after the turbo spins up and rpm goes above about 2000rpm. It a far more solid performing vehicle, you can feel the positive response or rather the non exisiting lack of performance as fuelling becomes more difficult as the revs increase. It will happily accelerate very strongly in 3rd and 4th to the point of being concerned at the speeds you are doing. Anyway to cut the story ahort, I now have a bunch of mounting plates (8) for the pumps and if anyone is interested hit me offline please, They are made of 2mm zinc plated steel, drilled and painted black. They fit beuatifully and look good. Its about a 3 to 4 hour job. I can supply bolts for them if required. You need 2 fuel line barbs, rubber grommets, fuel line and a bit of wiring and split conduit to do the job. All availaible from repco and a good hose supplier. Regards, Matt To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "ds21bvh" Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 03:13:55 -0000 Subject: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com, "Matt Pozzi" wrote: > A while ago there was a discussion of lift pumps for diesel cruisers > and fitting a walbro pump to add some positive boost to the fuel > befoer it got to the injection pump. > > Well I can now tell you it certainly adds some go to the vehicle > particularly after the turbo spins up and rpm goes above about > 2000rpm. It a far more solid performing vehicle, you can feel the > positive response or rather the non exisiting lack of performance as > fuelling becomes more difficult as the revs increase. It will happily > accelerate very strongly in 3rd and 4th to the point of being > concerned at the speeds you are doing. > > Anyway to cut the story ahort, I now have a bunch of mounting plates > (8) for the pumps and if anyone is interested hit me offline please, > They are made of 2mm zinc plated steel, drilled and painted black. > They fit beuatifully and look good. Its about a 3 to 4 hour job. I can > supply bolts for them if required. You need 2 fuel line barbs, rubber > grommets, fuel line and a bit of wiring and split conduit to do the > job. All availaible from repco and a good hose supplier. > > Regards, > Matt Hi Matt, Good to see you've got some improvement. Could it be possible that some of the improvement is due to the pump no longer struggling to pull the biodiesel (2x the viscosity of diesel) through the CAV filter head (increaced filtration over stock)....? Perhaps the difference would not be as dramatic on straight diesel....? Cheers, Mark... 96 HDJ80 GXL To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Matt Pozzi" Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 04:27:59 -0000 Subject: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com, "ds21bvh" wrote: > Hi Matt, > > Good to see you've got some improvement. > > Could it be possible that some of the improvement is due to the pump > no longer struggling to pull the biodiesel (2x the viscosity of > diesel) through the CAV filter head (increaced filtration over > stock)....? > > Perhaps the difference would not be as dramatic on straight > diesel....? > > Cheers, > > Mark... > 96 HDJ80 GXL Mark, my turn to pick on you now, biodiesel is not 2 times the viscosity in fact it is about the same most of the time. It is normally marginally more but is generally the same as petro diesel. Found this out the other night. Figures quoted escape me but did surprise me, at 20 degrees celsius it is about the same as petro diesel and in fact as temperature rises it does not dive as rapidly as petro diesel, thus providing better lubrication all the time. Sorry the dirty stuff is not in the game. I use cottonseed oil, but sunflower would be very nice indeed! I found some info for you. Here is some evidence. I do not think this is the absolute truth of the matter btw, but its a good indication its fine to use! Methyl Ester Cottonseed Soy Bean Sunflower Mineral Diesel Kinematic Viscosity at 20oC (x10-6 m2/s) 25.0 18.8 18.9 22.8 at 40oC (x10-6 m2/s) 23.1 11.1 13.2 12.3 at 70oC (x10-6 m2/s) 16.1 6.56 8.8 8.53 Density (kgm-3) 921 915 909 879 Mineral diesel is 1.8-4.1 mm2/s biodiesel is in the range of 3.5-6.0 at some temp I am not sure of. http://www.biodiesel.org.au look at standards. Expressed in other terms, at room temp its close to mineral diesel and maintains its viscosity as it gets hotter too. So its not too bad for mineral diesel, but when things get hot under your bonnet watch out! I refer you here, you may get a bit worried, be warned! Read about viscosity and diesel fuel. http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14264/css/14264_160.htm Bear in mind your fuel will get to approx 70 or 80 degrees in the injection pump when its warm before injection hence lower lubrication of the pump or put more simply more wear. Sorry to be the bearer of sad news. Matt To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Matt Pozzi" Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 04:30:46 -0000 Subject: [80_aus] More on pusher pumps Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com Mark you wrote: I thought fuel starvation was a problem for EGT, not due to the mixture being leaner, but due to the fact that it alters the timing in the injector pump (retards?) which then causes EGT's to spiral upwards.....? Another good reason for a pump perhaps? Matt To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> From: "Craig Huxley" Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:16:39 +1000 Subject: RE: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com | -----Original Message----- | From: Matt Pozzi [mailto:matt@ozpoz.com] | Sent: Thursday, 4 December 2003 2:28 PM | To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com | Subject: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets | | Mark, my turn to pick on you now, biodiesel is not 2 times the | viscosity in fact it is about the same most of the time. It is | normally marginally more but is generally the same as petro diesel. | | Found this out the other night. Figures quoted escape me but did | surprise me, at 20 degrees celsius it is about the same as petro | diesel and in fact as temperature rises it does not dive as rapidly as | petro diesel, thus providing better lubrication all the time. | | Sorry the dirty stuff is not in the game. I use cottonseed oil, but | sunflower would be very nice indeed! | | I found some info for you. Here is some evidence. | | I do not think this is the absolute truth of the matter btw, but its a | good indication its fine to use! | | Methyl Ester Cottonseed Soy Bean Sunflower Mineral Diesel | Kinematic Viscosity | at 20oC (x10-6 m2/s) 25.0 18.8 18.9 22.8 | at 40oC (x10-6 m2/s) 23.1 11.1 13.2 12.3 | at 70oC (x10-6 m2/s) 16.1 6.56 8.8 8.53 | Density (kgm-3) 921 915 909 879 | | Mineral diesel is 1.8-4.1 mm2/s biodiesel is in the range of 3.5-6.0 | at some temp I am not sure of. | | http://www.biodiesel.org.au look at standards. | | Expressed in other terms, at room temp its close to mineral diesel and | maintains its viscosity as it gets hotter too. So its not too bad for | mineral diesel, but when things get hot under your bonnet watch out! I | refer you here, you may get a bit worried, be warned! Read about | viscosity and diesel fuel. | | http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14264/css/14264_160.htm | | Bear in mind your fuel will get to approx 70 or 80 degrees in the | injection pump when its warm before injection hence lower lubrication | of the pump or put more simply more wear. | | Sorry to be the bearer of sad news. | | Matt Matt you should head up to Kenilworth Saw Mills they can get rid of the chip on your shoulder over biodiesel :-)) You were the one telling us about the increased viscousity of bd in justifying your decision to get a Walbro...and far be it from me to leap to Marks defence but he was raising the issues about viscousity of the fuel and the resistance of the CAV filter as IMHO legitimate points. I think the CAV is 7mm ID on the filter inlet/outlets which could cause some issues (minor) compared to stock. Visc. of fuel..perhaps. Anyway good to see it is working. Can you turn it off? If so would be interesting to see a before and after dyno printout. May show big moves in the torque and power curve. Cheers Craig To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Paul R" Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 11:27:32 -0000 Subject: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com > Could it be possible that some of the improvement is due to the pump > no longer struggling to pull the biodiesel (2x the viscosity of > diesel) through the CAV filter head (increaced filtration over > stock)....? > > Perhaps the difference would not be as dramatic on straight > diesel....? > > Cheers, > > Mark... Hi Mark - the pusher pump also gets a good wrap from Craig Vincent in NZ who runs normal Diesel (I think...) He may be able to offer some advice in this regard. Cheers Paul To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: Craig Vincent Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 23:58:23 +1300 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com Paul R wrote: > > >>Could it be possible that some of the improvement is due to the pump > >>no longer struggling to pull the biodiesel (2x the viscosity of >>diesel) through the CAV filter head (increaced filtration over >>stock)....? >> >>Perhaps the difference would not be as dramatic on straight >>diesel....? >> >>Cheers, >> >>Mark... >> > > >Hi Mark - the pusher pump also gets a good wrap from Craig Vincent >in NZ who runs normal Diesel (I think...) He may be able to offer >some advice in this regard. > >Cheers > >Paul Hi Paul, Until you have driven a truck with and without a Walbro pump you would not believe the differnce such a simple mod makes to power, torque, throttle response, improved injection pump life, extended fuel filter life & improved economy. I will not own a vehicle with a VE type injection pump without running a Walbro the difference is so dramatic. There are Walbro's still in service after 20 years they are a good wee pump. Cheers, Craig. Yes I do run on petroleum diesel To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> From: "SandyStariha" Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 11:16:00 +1100 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Vincent" Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:58 PM > Hi Paul, > Until you have driven a truck with and without a Walbro pump you would > not believe the differnce such a simple mod makes to power, torque, > throttle response, improved injection pump life, extended fuel filter > life & improved economy. I will not own a vehicle with a VE type > injection pump without running a Walbro the difference is so dramatic. > There are Walbro's still in service after 20 years they are a good wee pump. > > Cheers, > Craig. > Yes I do run on petroleum diesel > > Paul R wrote: Hi Craig Can you tell me what the spec's & or model/ part No is for the Walbro fuel pump is? I want to fit one to my 100 1hz turbo. Sandy GXL 1051hzTA To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> From: "Michael Hughes" Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 07:31:58 +1100 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com ----- Original Message ----- From: SandyStariha To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 11:16 AM Subject: Re: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Hi Craig Can you tell me what the spec's & or model/ part No is for the Walbro fuel pump is? I want to fit one to my 100 1hz turbo. Sandy GXL 1051hzTA Sandy, i have just purchased a pump, Walbro Model 6065W, all the details can be source on the internet at the Walbro site. it was $191.66 plus $5 postage from FDA (Flexible Drive Agencies), they have offices int Sydney, Brisbane, Adelaide, Perth and Melbourne Web address: www.fdrive.com.au (you wont find too much here on the pump itself but you can email them for price and delivery) Merv... 93 Poverty Pac with a few extras... To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> From: "SandyStariha" Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:55:15 +1100 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hughes" Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 7:31 AM > Sandy, > i have just purchased a pump, Walbro Model 6065W, all the details can > be source on the internet at the Walbro site. it was $191.66 plus $5 > postage from FDA (Flexible Drive Agencies), they have offices int Sydney, > Brisbane, Adelaide, Perth and Melbourne > > Web address: www.fdrive.com.au (you wont find too much here on the pump > itself but you can email them for price and delivery) Thanks for the help guys, but the model no. doesn't seem to match the one shown in the catalogue.Can u shed any more light on the subject GG. Sandy GXL1051hzTA To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Greg Goulden" Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 06:21:59 -0000 Subject: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com, "SandyStariha" wrote: > Thanks for the help guys, but the model no. doesn't seem to match the one > shown in the catalogue.Can u shed any more light on the subject GG. > > Sandy > GXL1051hzTA Hi Sandy, My FDA invoice shows it as a 6065W, as does their catalogue, however I think the box was marked 6065W-1. So long as you tell them it's for diesel fuel, and 12V they should give you the right one. Regards, Greg Goulden. To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: Craig Vincent Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 12:51:02 +1300 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com Greg Goulden wrote: >Hi Sandy, > >My FDA invoice shows it as a 6065W, as does their catalogue, however >I think the box was marked 6065W-1. > >So long as you tell them it's for diesel fuel, and 12V they should >give you the right one. > >Regards, > >Greg Goulden. > And nominally 10psi To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: Craig Vincent Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 12:49:44 +1300 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com SandyStariha wrote: >Thanks for the help guys, but the model no. doesn't seem to match the one >shown in the catalogue.Can u shed any more light on the subject GG. > >Sandy >GXL1051hzTA Hi Sandy, Used to be 6065W now its 6065-1. Cheers, Craig. To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Matt Pozzi" Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 11:36:08 -0000 Subject: [80_aus] Diesel Lift pump fitted on a bracket Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com A fairly amatuerish effort but for those who are interesed I have large Jpeg image of my fuel pump mounted on its bracket on my vehicle. It is a high res image suitable for all detail. There are several images, the main one you will be interested in seeing is below. Just go look at my website (no comments please on any other thing you see there, its mainly what goes on behind the scenes that matters on this site) and you will see it. Its only a 56KB modem connection be preapared for some delay as the image downloads, approx 6 seconds will be the time delay in rendering the complete image. http://www.ozpoz.com/FuelBrackets/Pump%20and%20Bracket%20fitted.JPG To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> From: "Robert Vlakic" Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 01:14:02 +1100 Subject: RE: [80_aus] Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com Matt, Any brackets left? Where did you pick up power to supply pump? Rob To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Peter Blackmore" Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 23:31:04 -0000 Subject: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump-Craig Vincint ? Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com, Craig Vincent wrote: SNIP >Until you have driven a truck with and without a Walbro pump you >would not believe the differnce such a simple mod makes to power, >torque, throttle response, improved injection pump life, extended >fuel filter life & improved economy. I will not own a vehicle with >a VE type injection pump without running a Walbro the difference >is so dramatic. SNIP Craig, Were you referring to all diesels, ie. naturally aspirated, or just TDs ? Regards Peter Blackmore To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: Craig Vincent Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:02:13 +1300 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump-Craig Vincint ? Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com Peter Blackmore wrote: >--- In 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com, Craig Vincent wrote: >SNIP > >>Until you have driven a truck with and without a Walbro pump you >>would not believe the differnce such a simple mod makes to power, >>torque, throttle response, improved injection pump life, extended >>fuel filter life & improved economy. I will not own a vehicle with >>a VE type injection pump without running a Walbro the difference >>is so dramatic. >> >SNIP > >Craig, > >Were you referring to all diesels, ie. naturally aspirated, or just >TDs ? > >Regards >Peter Blackmore > Hi Peter, All diesels that use a VE type rotary style injection pump i.e. 2L, 3L, 1HZ etcetera, nissans, mazdas, mitsubishis, etcetera. Nissan has factory fitted a in-tank pusher pump on there ZD30 powered diesels which I suspect is a first for a Japanese manufacturer. I don't know about EFI pumps such as the 5LE, 2L-TIIE, or 1HD-FTE it should help look after the input shafts and front seal though. Cheers, Craig. NB: Peter I had one on my 3L powered 2WD extra cab ute and in conjunction with a big bore exhaust, extractors, big aircleaner with cold intake it used to average 35-38mpg round town and in excess of 40 on the open road depending on speed. To: "80scool" <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> From: "SandyStariha" Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:00:48 +1100 Subject: [80_aus] Push pump & oil Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com Fitted the Walbro pusher pump on Friday, nobody mentioned the racket they make, just as well the 105 is so well insulated that you can't hear it inside the cabin so the missus hasn't noticed it yet. Was out in Sydney's west today & picked up 20l of CXJ for $85, said they'd deliver Sydney metro for $10. Sandy GXL1051hzTA To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> From: "Corr, Darren (CALBSL)" Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:41:17 +1000 Subject: RE: [80_aus] Push pump & oil Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com -----Original Message----- From: SandyStariha [mailto:sscleanngreen@optusnet.com.au] Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 5:01 PM > Fitted the Walbro pusher pump on Friday, nobody mentioned the racket > they make, just as well the 105 is so well insulated that you can't > hear it inside the cabin so the missus hasn't noticed it yet. Was out > in Sydney's west today & picked up 20l of CXJ for $85, said they'd > deliver Sydney metro for $10. > > Sandy > GXL1051hzTA Sandy, have you got a natural motor or turbo? How have you found the pump, worth the effort. Thinking of doing this mod soon. Corry 92 GXLDSL 40 Shorty To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> From: "SandyStariha" Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 21:07:40 +1100 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Push pump & oil Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Corr, Darren (CALBSL)" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 8:41 PM > Sandy, have you got a natural motor or turbo? How have you found the > pump, worth the effort. Thinking of doing this mod soon. Corry 1hz with DTS turbo, don't know if the pump is worth the effort as I was away on biz for the weekend and haven't driven it yet. Sandy GXL1051hzTA To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Greg Goulden" Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 10:50:19 -0000 Subject: [80_aus] Re: Push pump & oil Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com, "SandyStariha" wrote: > Fitted the Walbro pusher pump on Friday, nobody mentioned the > racket they make, just as well the 105 is so well insulated that you > can't hear it inside the cabin so the missus hasn't noticed it yet. > Was out in Sydney's west today & picked up 20l of CXJ for $85, said > they'd deliver Sydney metro for $10. > > Sandy > GXL1051hzTA Sandy, Did you rubber mount it? At present mine is fixed to the chassis and I have had the "time bomb" comments, but I will endeavour to rubber mount it which I'm assured will reduce the noise. Regards, Greg Goulden. 2000 HDJ105GXLTDIC1HDFT? To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> From: "SandyStariha" Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 08:40:18 +1100 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Re: Push pump & oil Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Goulden" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 9:50 PM > Sandy, > > Did you rubber mount it? At present mine is fixed to the chassis and > I have had the "time bomb" comments, but I will endeavour to rubber > mount it which I'm assured will reduce the noise. Greg No but after I heard it the thought had crossed my mind, but I don't have the time right now. tic tic tic tic tic tic...........? Sandy 98'HZJ105GXL1hz TA To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Matt Pozzi" Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:22:31 -0000 Subject: [80_aus] Re: Push pump & oil time bombs Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com, "SandyStariha" From: "Greg Goulden" > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 9:50 PM > > > Sandy, > > Did you rubber mount it? At present mine is fixed to the chassis and > > I have had the "time bomb" comments, but I will endeavour to rubber > > mount it which I'm assured will reduce the noise. > > > > Greg > No but after I heard it the thought had crossed my mind, but I don't have > the time right now. > tic tic tic tic tic tic...........? The noise you are referring to is not the pump motor but in fact I believe a non return valve in the pump slapping back on its seat and giving us the time bomb sound of tic tic tic Running the pump dry gives a reassuring loud hum as the thing oscillates trying to pump air. Its not that bad considering the performance gain surely? And as you said its not audible inside. Matt 1HDFT + Walbro To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: Graham Tait Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:41:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [80_aus] Push pump & oil Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com What's a push pump ? Graham Tait To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Greg Goulden" Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:02:32 -0000 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Push pump & oil Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com, Graham Tait wrote: > What's a push pump ? > > Graham Tait Hi Graham, A push pump or pusher pump, is an electric auxillary pump that some of us have been fitting down near the tanks, under the rear of the car. The theory is that it takes some of the load off the injection pump having to suck the fuel all the way from the rear of the vehicle, which hopefully relates to better performance, especially if using non-genuine (more restrictive but finer filtering) filters, or biodiesel is being used. Regards, Greg Goulden 2000 HDJ105 To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Greg Goulden" Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:08:07 -0000 Subject: [80_aus] Re: Push pump & oil time bombs Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com, "Matt Pozzi" wrote: > The noise you are referring to is not the pump motor but in fact I > believe a non return valve in the pump slapping back on its seat and > giving us the time bomb sound of tic tic tic > > Running the pump dry gives a reassuring loud hum as the thing > oscillates trying to pump air. > > Its not that bad considering the performance gain surely? And as you > said its not audible inside. > > Matt > 1HDFT + Walbro Matt, I think you'll find that the Walbro doesn't have a "motor" in it as we know, ie. no rotating armature, etc. Instead it uses a piston, check valve and some control electronics to operate it as a on/off/on/off solenoid. This is also why we need some sort of electronics man to design a nice little filter circuit for it ;-) Regards, Greg Goulden 2000 HDJ105 tick'er To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Matt Pozzi" Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:20:27 -0000 Subject: [80_aus] Re: Push pump & oil time bombs Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Goulden" wrote: > Matt, > > I think you'll find that the Walbro doesn't have a "motor" in it as > we know, ie. no rotating armature, etc. > > Instead it uses a piston, check valve and some control electronics to > operate it as a on/off/on/off solenoid. This is also why we need some > sort of electronics man to design a nice little filter circuit for > it ;-) Yes Greg, I did know that, just did not think before typing. What sort of filter are you looking for? Matt BE (Elec) To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com Cc: craig.z.v@paradise.net.nz From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 22:54:18 +0100 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com On 5 Dec 2003 at 23:58, Craig Vincent wrote: > Paul R wrote: > > > > > > >>Could it be possible that some of the improvement is due to the > >> > >pump > > > >>no longer struggling to pull the biodiesel (2x the viscosity of > >>diesel) through the CAV filter head (increaced filtration over > >>stock)....? > >> > >>Perhaps the difference would not be as dramatic on straight > >>diesel....? > >> > >>Cheers, > >> > >>Mark... > >> > > > > > >Hi Mark - the pusher pump also gets a good wrap from Craig Vincent in > >NZ who runs normal Diesel (I think...) He may be able to offer some > >advice in this regard. > > > >Cheers > > > >Paul > > Hi Paul, > Until you have driven a truck with and without a Walbro pump you would > not believe the differnce such a simple mod makes to power, torque, > throttle response, improved injection pump life, extended fuel filter > life & improved economy. I will not own a vehicle with a VE type > injection pump without running a Walbro the difference is so dramatic. > There are Walbro's still in service after 20 years they are a good wee > pump. > > Cheers, > Craig. > Yes I do run on petroleum diesel Is this improvement also valid on top of intercooler/larger-exhaust, in case of 1HD-T? IOW: is the pump struggling in stock dress, or when trying to keep up with other engine tuning stuff? Since a larger exhaust does already wonders for throttle response, that's why....might get scary to improve it once more....:)) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> From: "D.E McRae" Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 09:41:46 +1100 Subject: RE: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com [~]-----Original Message----- [~]From: Willem-Jan Markerink [mailto:w.j.markerink@a1.nl] [~]> Until you have driven a truck with and without a Walbro pump you would [~]> not believe the differnce such a simple mod makes to power, torque, [~]> throttle response, improved injection pump life, extended fuel filter [~]> life & improved economy. [~]> Cheers, [~]> Craig. [~]> Yes I do run on petroleum diesel [~] [~]Is this improvement also valid on top of intercooler/larger-exhaust, [~]in case of 1HD-T? [~]IOW: is the pump struggling in stock dress, or when trying to keep up [~]with other engine tuning stuff? [~]Since a larger exhaust does already wonders for throttle response, [~]that's why....might get scary to improve it once more....:)) [~] [~]-- [~]Bye, [~] [~]Willem-Jan Markerink Would be interesting to try it on a new vehicle, as I think the walbro will only make up for wear factors on older stuff. Darren McRae. To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: Craig Vincent Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 17:50:19 +1300 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com Hi Willem, Willem-Jan Markerink wrote: Snip. > >Is this improvement also valid on top of intercooler/larger-exhaust, >in case of 1HD-T? > ---Even greater potential for a gain as you are using more fuel than a stock truck. > >IOW: is the pump struggling in stock dress, or when trying to keep up >with other engine tuning stuff? > ---Yes and the only reason I can see that a pusher type pump (or an engine driven mechanical feed pump) was not factory installed by Toyota was it adds more cost to the build price. > >Since a larger exhaust does already wonders for throttle response, >that's why....might get scary to improve it once more....:)) > ---In you case Willem with a significant power increase over stock anyway you would probably see a gain in off boost response and a drop in fuel used. A big (4" exhaust tube) snorkel, factory main muffler removal and a Walbro pusher pump results on a 1HD-T typically in a nice power gain and a 15-22% improvement in economy. How much each component is responsible for the gain I don't know. Cheers, Craig. To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: Craig Vincent Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 17:50:22 +1300 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com D.E McRae wrote: >[~]-----Original Message----- >[~]From: Willem-Jan Markerink [mailto:w.j.markerink@a1.nl] >[~]> Until you have driven a truck with and without a Walbro pump you would >[~]> not believe the differnce such a simple mod makes to power, torque, >[~]> throttle response, improved injection pump life, extended fuel filter >[~]> life & improved economy. >[~]> Cheers, >[~]> Craig. >[~]> Yes I do run on petroleum diesel >[~] >[~]Is this improvement also valid on top of intercooler/larger-exhaust, >[~]in case of 1HD-T? >[~]IOW: is the pump struggling in stock dress, or when trying to keep up >[~]with other engine tuning stuff? >[~]Since a larger exhaust does already wonders for throttle response, >[~]that's why....might get scary to improve it once more....:)) >[~] >[~]-- >[~]Bye, >[~] >[~]Willem-Jan Markerink >Would be interesting to try it on a new vehicle, as I think the walbro will >only make up for wear factors on older stuff. > >Darren McRae. Hi Darren, Even on brand new vehicles with Bosch VE type injection pumps the difference is noticeable. Whenever a VE pump is run up on a test bed it is alway's pressure fed with fuel yet when reinstalled on most vehicles the injection pump is then forced to suck fuel up a tank pickup, that may have a flow restricting pre-filter on it, through a long length of steel and rubber pipe then through a fuel filter that will significantly retrict flow as it blocks. As the fuel flow is restricted the feed pump will not deliver fuel to the main body of the pump at high enough pressures. Since the advance curve of the injection pump is controlled by body pressure restricted fuel supply leads to retarded injection timing hence poor fuel economy, elevated pyrometer temps, reduced throttle response & prematurely sooted up engine oil. A 5-10% or more improvement in economy is quite normal. Nissan factory installs a in tank pusher pump on the ZD30 twin-cam diesels this will have no effect on the injection timing as the pump is computer controlled but Nissan must have done it to protect the injection pump from excess fuel restriction leading to feed pump cavitation or premature input shaft seal failure and hence input shaft failure. In theory installing a pusher pump should have no effect on the performance, economy etcetera of a 1HD-FTE (100 series turbodiesel) or 1KZ-TE (Playdo turbo diesel) but it would be interesting to see if it made a difference to injection pump service life. If it did make a difference it would suggest the injection pump had been sucking air in through the front seal which can cause catastrophic pump failures (input shaft is fuel lubricated and if starved of fuel by air washing it away the input shaft will seize with quite spectacular results. Cheers, Craig. To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 01:30:44 +0100 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com On 26 Jan 2004 at 17:50, Craig Vincent wrote: > Hi Willem, > > Willem-Jan Markerink wrote: > Snip. > > > > >Is this improvement also valid on top of intercooler/larger-exhaust, > >in case of 1HD-T? > > > ---Even greater potential for a gain as you are using more fuel than a > stock truck. > > > > >IOW: is the pump struggling in stock dress, or when trying to keep up > > with other engine tuning stuff? > > > ---Yes and the only reason I can see that a pusher type pump (or an > engine driven mechanical feed pump) was not factory installed by > Toyota was it adds more cost to the build price. > > > > >Since a larger exhaust does already wonders for throttle response, > >that's why....might get scary to improve it once more....:)) > > > ---In you case Willem with a significant power increase over stock > anyway you would probably see a gain in off boost response and a drop > in fuel used. A big (4" exhaust tube) snorkel, factory main muffler > removal and a Walbro pusher pump results on a 1HD-T typically in a > nice power gain and a 15-22% improvement in economy. How much each > component is responsible for the gain I don't know. Last question, just to cover/limit the range of applications (and before someone runs off with the wrong conclusion, and tries it in vain): It does *not* work on any line-pump, *only* on rotary pumps? As in real world tested & falsified? Btw, most of the difference is probably due to the fact that the rotary pumps use 9/10 of the sucked up diesel for cooling & lubrication (directed back through the return-line), and only 1/10 for actual combustion, while a line-pump uses nearly all for combustion. And those fuel lines are not much different in diameter (2H vs 1HD-T), if at all. Oh well, another file/article created on my homepage....the fun & inspiration never stops....:)) ( http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/dies_fuel-lift-pump.txt ) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: Craig Vincent Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 17:25:14 +1300 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com Hi Willem, Willem-Jan Markerink wrote: >On 26 Jan 2004 at 17:50, Craig Vincent wrote: > >>Hi Willem, >> >>Willem-Jan Markerink wrote: >>Snip. >> >>>Is this improvement also valid on top of intercooler/larger-exhaust, >>>in case of 1HD-T? >>> >>---Even greater potential for a gain as you are using more fuel than a >>stock truck. >> >>>IOW: is the pump struggling in stock dress, or when trying to keep up >>>with other engine tuning stuff? >>> >>---Yes and the only reason I can see that a pusher type pump (or an >>engine driven mechanical feed pump) was not factory installed by >>Toyota was it adds more cost to the build price. >> >>>Since a larger exhaust does already wonders for throttle response, >>>that's why....might get scary to improve it once more....:)) >>> >>---In you case Willem with a significant power increase over stock >>anyway you would probably see a gain in off boost response and a drop >>in fuel used. A big (4" exhaust tube) snorkel, factory main muffler >>removal and a Walbro pusher pump results on a 1HD-T typically in a >>nice power gain and a 15-22% improvement in economy. How much each >>component is responsible for the gain I don't know. >> > >Last question, just to cover/limit the range of applications (and >before someone runs off with the wrong conclusion, and tries it in >vain): >It does *not* work on any line-pump, *only* on rotary pumps? > ###Yes the inline pumps have there own mechanical pumps attached to the side of the injection pump > > >As in real world tested & falsified? > ### You have lost me what do you mean? If you are talking about the economy numbers those are based on what I have seen personally and a few friends have noticed on their trucks also. > > > >Btw, most of the difference is probably due to the fact that the >rotary pumps use 9/10 of the sucked up diesel for cooling & >lubrication (directed back through the return-line), and only 1/10 >for actual combustion, while a line-pump uses nearly all for >combustion. >And those fuel lines are not much different in diameter >(2H vs 1HD-T), if at all. > ### On the inline pumps advance is controlled by a set of flyweights using centrifugal force to create the advance in injection timing with increased rpm whereas on a rotary pump this is caused by a increase in fuel pressure which is regulated but also basically related to engine rpm. On a TD42 with a pusher pump at high rpm the Walbro pump will struggle to stay above 2psi at the injection pump inlet versus it will still be about 6psi on a 1HD-T and the main difference is the Nissan runs 8mm fuel lines versus the Toyota's 12mm. To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Craig Huxley" Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 04:38:54 -0000 Subject: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com, Craig Vincent wrote: > Hi Willem, > > ### On the inline pumps advance is controlled by a set of flyweights > using centrifugal force to create the advance in injection timing with > increased rpm whereas on a rotary pump this is caused by a increase in > fuel pressure which is regulated but also basically related to engine > rpm. On a TD42 with a pusher pump at high rpm the Walbro pump will > struggle to stay above 2psi at the injection pump inlet versus it will > still be about 6psi on a 1HD-T and the main difference is the Nissan > runs 8mm fuel lines versus the Toyota's 12mm. But the biggest reason would be because the TD42 Datto motor runs an inline injection pump not rotary. So the reason would really be not fuel line related but the fact that the inline pumps have their own fuel pump sucking fuel defeating the Walbro's reason for being there at all surely? Did you source that new BC shaft from Japan? Cheers Craig Maliana, Timor Leste Email: huxley@un.org To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Greg Goulden" Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 06:36:33 -0000 Subject: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets[chat][o/t] Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com, "Craig Huxley" wrote: > > But the biggest reason would be because the TD42 Datto motor runs an > inline injection pump not rotary. So the reason would really be not > fuel line related but the fact that the inline pumps have their own > fuel pump sucking fuel defeating the Walbro's reason for being there > at all surely? > Craig > Maliana, Timor Leste > Email: huxley@u... Craig, Although Ni$$an's are off topic, I believe the later TD42's run the VE rotary pump. The newer TD6 even has a little piezo sensor attached to No.1 injector... Regards, Greg Goulden. To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: Craig Vincent Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 21:31:59 +1300 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com Hi Craig, Big Snip. Craig Huxley wrote: > >But the biggest reason would be because the TD42 Datto motor runs an >inline injection pump not rotary. So the reason would really be not >fuel line related but the fact that the inline pumps have their own >fuel pump sucking fuel defeating the Walbro's reason for being there >at all surely? > The majority of the TD42's sold here have rotary pump's only very old ones had inline pumps. > > >Did you source that new BC shaft from Japan? Not yet. To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Craig Huxley" Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:52:40 -0000 Subject: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets[chat][o/t] Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Goulden" wrote: > Craig, > > Although Ni$$an's are off topic, I believe the later TD42's run the > VE rotary pump. The newer TD6 even has a little piezo sensor attached > to No.1 injector... > > Regards, > > Greg Goulden. I must pop the bonnet on a mate's TD42 ute and check it out again. I was pretty sure his (a 2002 turbo non intercooled) was inline pump. Course we will have all forgotten about it by the time I get the chance in late May..... To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 01:15:23 +0100 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Re: Disel Lift pump & brackets Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com On 27 Jan 2004 at 17:25, Craig Vincent wrote: > Hi Willem, > >Last question, just to cover/limit the range of applications (and > >before someone runs off with the wrong conclusion, and tries it in > >vain): It does *not* work on any line-pump, *only* on rotary pumps? > > > ###Yes the inline pumps have there own mechanical pumps attached to > ###the > side of the injection pump > > > > > > >As in real world tested & falsified? > > > ### You have lost me what do you mean? If you are talking about the > economy numbers those are based on what I have seen personally and a > few friends have noticed on their trucks also. I meant that an additional pump was 'falsified' to improve things on an inline pump....since I doubt that anything else than 'trial&error' was responsible for discovering the improvement on rotary pumps....so it better be falsified, otherwise there is still a slight change it might work....:)))) > > > > > > > >Btw, most of the difference is probably due to the fact that the > >rotary pumps use 9/10 of the sucked up diesel for cooling & > >lubrication (directed back through the return-line), and only 1/10 > >for actual combustion, while a line-pump uses nearly all for > >combustion. And those fuel lines are not much different in diameter > >(2H vs 1HD-T), if at all. > > > ### On the inline pumps advance is controlled by a set of flyweights > using centrifugal force to create the advance in injection timing with > increased rpm whereas on a rotary pump this is caused by a increase in > fuel pressure which is regulated but also basically related to engine > rpm. On a TD42 with a pusher pump at high rpm the Walbro pump will > struggle to stay above 2psi at the injection pump inlet versus it will > still be about 6psi on a 1HD-T and the main difference is the Nissan > runs 8mm fuel lines versus the Toyota's 12mm. Hmm....but does the Nissan send 9/10 of fuel back to the tank? That was my point.... Using all fuel through 8mm is still heaps better than using only 10% through 12mm.... -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] From: w.j.markerink@a1.nl To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:31:49 +0100 Subject: [DTLC] Benefits of fuel-lift-pump? (was: Debate: Manual or Automatic transmission? Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net Cc: dtlc@helios.net On 29 Jan 2004 at 16:50, Julian Voelcker wrote: > Hi Chris, > > On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 15:49:37 +0000, Christopher Bell wrote: > > (high torque doesn't compensate for left leg effort) > > What is the clutch like, is it pretty heavy? No heavier than on the 2H, it's just that the vehicle itself is so darn fast that you tend to shift quicker....;)) > > On the TD you need to drop from 5th to 3rd to get the revs to > > overtake anything, and the gear change is a bit ponderous as you > > say. > > Hopefully the intercooler will resolve some of that. It is also worth > noting that it is possible to get the injector pump 'tuned' to help > out here. Take a look at:- > > http://www.safari4x4.com.au/80scool/tech/1hd-ft_pump_adjust.html Here is something even more staggering, the claimed benefits of a fuel-lift/pressure-pump with TDi's/rotary injection pumps: http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/dies_fuel-lift-pump.txt Anyone here with similar success? (CC to DTLC-list) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 18:23:32 -0600 From: Brad Taylor Subject: Re: [DTLC] Benefits of fuel-lift-pump? (was: Debate: Manual or To: dtlc@helios.net Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net > > http://www.safari4x4.com.au/80scool/tech/1hd-ft_pump_adjust.html > > Here is something even more staggering, the claimed benefits of a > fuel-lift/pressure-pump with TDi's/rotary injection pumps: > > http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/dies_fuel-lift-pump.txt > > Anyone here with similar success? > (CC to DTLC-list) > I don't have one on any cruisers but I installed one on my tuned Duramax. The injection pump is rated at 60 hg and we tested it to about 40 iirc. We where getting about a 6hg drop across a set of additional filters at idle and about 10hg drop at WOT. We definitely should not of had any issues with fuel starvation, but it turns out we did, kinda, I think. I installed a lift pump for another unrelated issue and dropped my 1/4 mile times by almost 0.5 of a sec.... The pump was set up to produce 1 psi at WOT. Our conclusion, the higher vacuum across the fuel filters and was drawing vapor out of the diesel fuel. This was further compounded because of the fuel return system aerating the diesel in the tank. We tested it by removing fuel at the filters, placing it in vacuum and seeing if any vapor or air was created. To our surprise it was!! I would say about 10cc in a litre of fuel. As a note of interest, GM is installing lift pumps on their 05 trucks????? Brad To: <120scool@yahoogroups.com>, <90scool_aus@yahoogroups.com>, <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com>, <100scool@yahoogroups.com>, <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "George Couyant" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 12:00:30 +1100 Subject: [80_aus] Report - Cooma Diesel Information Day Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com Hi guys, Just finished the report on the LCOOL Diesel Information Day at Cooma Diesel. It's linked http://www.lcool.org/trips/did1/report.html I'd like to take this opportunity to thanks Ian Bragg not only for organising this excellent event but also for allowing Darren and me to mess up his awesome shed over a couple of nights. For those contemplating attending the next Diesel Information Day, jump on it as soon as it is announced on the LCOOL Trips & Events page. It was a great day - and for Darren and me a great weekend away. Cheers gc '97 HDJ80 - Melbourne Oz '03 Prado To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> From: "SandyStariha" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 16:02:23 +1100 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Report - Cooma Diesel Information Day Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com > Hi guys, > > Just finished the report on the LCOOL Diesel Information Day at Cooma > Diesel. It's linked http://www.lcool.org/trips/did1/report.html > GC For those of us that weren't there, what are the nasty effects a pusher pump has on the operation of injector pumps? Sandy GXL1051hzTA pusherpump To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> From: "George Couyant" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:30:03 +1100 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Report - Cooma Diesel Information Day Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "SandyStariha" > For those of us that weren't there, what are the nasty effects a pusher pump > has on the operation of injector pumps? In a nutshell, anything over a few psi affects the injection timing of the pump - and Dave demonstrated that on the test bench. A well maintained pump operating within specification does not need a lift pump. It can also mask other problems including filter blocking and filtered particle size. Cheers gc '97 HDJ80 - Melbourne Oz '03 Prado From: "Stuart McMurtrie" To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [80_aus] Report - Cooma Diesel Information Day Date sent: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:06:34 +1000 Send reply to: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com ----- Original Message ----- From: George Couyant Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 8:30 PM > In a nutshell, anything over a few psi affects the injection timing of the > pump - and Dave demonstrated that on the test bench. A well maintained pump > operating within specification does not need a lift pump. > > It can also mask other problems including filter blocking and filtered > particle size. George I do not doubt the word of the experts and agree. However I am thinking of a couple of scenarios where people are using or are contemplating using a pusher or lift pump, and am interested in an opinion of need or validity for having one of these:- 1 Biodiesel (100%) being used as fuel - thicker than mineral diesel at normal operating temps and therefore presumeably more difficult to draw through fuel lines with the standard injection pump. May be even more an issue where an intercooler is fitted and subsequent increase of fuel rate? 2 A TD starving for mineral fuel in a vehicle originally fitted with a 1HZ, which has smaller fuel lines than a native TD vehicle. Again a fuelled up intercooled engine. I realise and agree that in scenario 1 if the user moved to mineral fuel, say on a trip where bio is not available, then there would definitely be issues. Neither of the above scenarios refers to me (at this stage). Maybe the above scenarios would be best fitted to your text below as "Out of specification" ? Your input always appreciated. regards Stuart McMurtrie Brisbane 93GXL ex 1HZ now 1HD-T To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> From: "SandyStariha" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:49:56 +1100 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Report - Cooma Diesel Information Day Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Couyant" To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 9:30 PM Subject: Re: [80_aus] Report - Cooma Diesel Information Day > In a nutshell, anything over a few psi affects the injection timing of the > pump - and Dave demonstrated that on the test bench. A well maintained pump > operating within specification does not need a lift pump. > > It can also mask other problems including filter blocking and filtered > particle size. GC Are you saying all of us that have fitted a walbro pusher pump have done the wrong thing & wasted our time & money ? Because that's not the impression I got when this was discussed last year. Sandy GXL1051hzTA To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> From: "D.E McRae" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 11:00:36 +1100 Subject: RE: [80_aus] Report - Cooma Diesel Information Day Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com -----Original Message----- From: SandyStariha [mailto:sscleanngreen@optusnet.com.au] > GC > Are you saying all of us that have fitted a walbro pusher pump have done the > wrong thing & wasted our time & money ? > Because that's not the impression I got when this was discussed last year. > > Sandy > GXL1051hzTA If your pump is in correct order, yes, they stated not to do it, because it could have a detrimental effect on the pump, and engine, especially if you dont know if the pump specs are standard to begin with. DMc To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Matt Pozzi" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 03:23:12 -0000 Subject: [80_aus] Diesel Information Day - pump concerns Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com, "SandyStariha" wrote: > GC > Are you saying all of us that have fitted a walbro pusher pump have done the > wrong thing & wasted our time & money ? > Because that's not the impression I got when this was discussed last year. > Sandy, With respect to this issue, I am going to 'have a chat with Dave at Cooma re this' but in the meantime submit the following rational: The Walbro is a low pressure fuel pump, it outputs at 10 psi at its outlet, however when put throught the fuel system, the filter and then into the injection pump it will be a lot less. How much I cannot say exactly but I would say it would be well down. It is this pressure at the inlet to the pump that is the point at issue and subject to the statement that pusher pumps are bad for the injection pump. I believe, and say again, I believe it is low enough as to not affect the pump given the internal pressure built up by the inlet vane pump and its pressurisastion on the injection pump overwhelming the slight positive pressure prodeced by the Walbro. I do know that injection pumps are set up on the bench with a positive inlet pressure, I beleive it to be in the order of 2psi. Others then say they adjust the pump to allow for long fuel lines and other factors, what they do here is anyone's and their guesswork / experience. Needless it will be some change in the pumps timing to allow for this external influence, as negative pressures at the inlet will affect the pump (by retsrading timing) just as much as positive ones will (advancing timing). I think it better to make changes to that external system to bring it up to something close to what the pump expects. It has the added benefit of reducing stress and consequential wear on the injection pump. This affect will be same whether running mineral diesel or biodiesel. What is being said is this, the Walbro pushes at too high a pressure and this forces too much fuel past the pressure regulation stage of the injection pump, resulting in excess pressure on a little piston. This piston controls timing and it is correctly said that changes to this timing affect the pump and your engine. One says no the other yes. As usual it will come down to fine details and semantics. I agree that high pressure at the inlet will affect the pump, but low pressure should not. The Walbro is a low pressure pump. This needs clarification and this is what I am trying to do. I have conflicting messages coming in from two reputable shops. The jury is out, I will try to get get an answer on this, as I do not like the uncertainty and confusion that can spread and worry people. Mind you it may not be the answer I am looking for! Not looking for long discussions guys, just the real situation, time will tell. Sandy if you are really concerned, pull the power to the pump, its will allow fuel through without power. Regards to all, Matt To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> From: "SandyStariha" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:35:08 +1100 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Diesel Information Day - pump concerns Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Pozzi" Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 2:23 PM > Sandy, > > With respect to this issue, I am going to 'have a chat with Dave at > Cooma re this' but in the meantime submit the following rational: > > The Walbro is a low pressure fuel pump, it outputs at 10 psi at its > outlet, however when put throught the fuel system, the filter and then > into the injection pump it will be a lot less. How much I cannot say > exactly but I would say it would be well down. It is this pressure at > the inlet to the pump that is the point at issue and subject to the > statement that pusher pumps are bad for the injection pump. > > This needs clarification and this is what I am trying to do. I have > conflicting messages coming in from two reputable shops. > > The jury is out, I will try to get get an answer on this, as I do not > like the uncertainty and confusion that can spread and worry people. > Mind you it may not be the answer I am looking for! > > > > > > Regards to all, > Matt Thanks Mat I did know that the Walbro was a low pressure pump, & you have spelt out exactly what I felt, but then again I'm easily confused. Sandy GXL1051hzTA To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> From: "D.E McRae" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:36:19 +1100 Subject: RE: [80_aus] Diesel Information Day - pump concerns Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com All of that is providing your pump is standard settings to begin with Matt. Regards Darren McRae. To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Matt Pozzi" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 03:57:59 -0000 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Diesel Information Day - pump concerns Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com, "D.E McRae" wrote: > All of that is providing your pump is standard settings to begin > with Matt. Thanks for your concern Dazza, yes of course that is true as well, the pump should be calibrated to spec and not tweaked, either formally or informally. ie leave it alone and do not fiddle. To finish this off, yes mine is at spec, nothing less or more. That was what I asked for. regards, Matt To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: Craig Vincent Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:33:48 +1300 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Diesel Information Day - pump concerns Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com Hi Matt, Sandy, Matt Pozzi wrote: >Sandy, > >With respect to this issue, I am going to 'have a chat with Dave at >Cooma re this' but in the meantime submit the following rational: > >The Walbro is a low pressure fuel pump, it outputs at 10 psi at its >outlet, however when put throught the fuel system, the filter and then >into the injection pump it will be a lot less. How much I cannot say >exactly but I would say it would be well down. It is this pressure at >the inlet to the pump that is the point at issue and subject to the >statement that pusher pumps are bad for the injection pump. ---10psi is it's maximum output pressure at zero fuel flow and at max output of 40US gallons per hour pressure is 0psi. At idle the Walbro will deliver about 7psi at the injection pump inlet, on the test bed the pump is force fed with fuel at 4.3psi, anything over 3.5"Hg vacuum will start to seriously affect the injection pump advance curve. How does a fuel shop create a fudge factor on there test bed to compensate for sucking all the way from the tank on a vehicle versus pressure fed fuel supply on the test bed? >I believe, and say again, I believe it is low enough as to not affect >the pump given the internal pressure built up by the inlet vane pump >and its pressurization on the injection pump overwhelming the slight >positive pressure prodeced by the Walbro. I do know that injection >pumps are set up on the bench with a positive inlet pressure, I >beleive it to be in the order of 2psi. Others then say they adjust the >pump to allow for long fuel lines and other factors, what they do here >is anyone's and their guesswork / experience. Needless it will be some >change in the pumps timing to allow for this external influence, as >negative pressures at the inlet will affect the pump (by retsrading >timing) just as much as positive ones will (advancing timing). I think >it better to make changes to that external system to bring it up to >something close to what the pump expects. It has the added benefit of >reducing stress and consequential wear on the injection pump. This >affect will be same whether running mineral diesel or biodiesel. ---It is quite common to see the soot level in engine oil on a 1HD-T to drop 30-50% over 10,000km when running a Walbro pusher pump to me that is a happier running engine and I have always got better economy after installing a pusher pump. I agree that installing a EFI high pressure pump could provide some interesting results. >What is being said is this, the Walbro pushes at too high a pressure >and this forces too much fuel past the pressure regulation stage of >the injection pump, resulting in excess pressure on a little piston. >This piston controls timing and it is correctly said that changes to >this timing affect the pump and your engine. > >One says no the other yes. As usual it will come down to fine details >and semantics. I agree that high pressure at the inlet will affect the >pump, but low pressure should not. The Walbro is a low pressure pump. > >This needs clarification and this is what I am trying to do. I have >conflicting messages coming in from two reputable shops. ---If you were being very cynical you could say that running a pusher pump is detrimental to a fuel shops business. The front seal on the injection pump is less likely to leak air and cause a front bush premature wear failure, the pump will stay in calibration longer as the vane pump is likely to wear less. I will continue to run Walbro's and recommend them to others. Nissan (yes I know I just swore) run a in tank low pressure pusher to feed fuel to the injection pump on the ZD30 turbo engines so they can't all be bad. To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Matt Pozzi" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:51:29 -0000 Subject: Re: [80_aus] Diesel Information Day - pump concerns Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com, Craig Vincent wrote: > Hi Matt, Sandy, > > >The Walbro is a low pressure fuel pump, it outputs at 10 psi at its > >outlet, however when put throught the fuel system, the filter and then > >into the injection pump it will be a lot less. How much I cannot say > >exactly but I would say it would be well down. It is this pressure at > >the inlet to the pump that is the point at issue and subject to the > >statement that pusher pumps are bad for the injection pump. > > ---10psi is it's maximum output pressure at zero fuel flow and at max > output of 40US gallons per hour pressure is 0psi. At idle the Walbro > will deliver about 7psi at the injection pump inlet, on the test bed the > pump is force fed with fuel at 4.3psi, anything over 3.5"Hg vacuum will > start to seriously affect the injection pump advance curve. How does a > fuel shop create a fudge factor on there test bed to compensate for > sucking all the way from the tank on a vehicle versus pressure fed fuel > supply on the test bed? > Craig, with a big snip the question is this: I gather from your comments that you have measured the pressure at the pump or know of someone who did? You measured the pressure at 4.3 PSI at the inlet at the revs / setup the specification calls for? If I remember right one atmosphere is 14.7 psi. I know its 760mm Hg or 26in Hg so a partial vacuum of 3.5In Hg is about 14.7 * 3.5/26 = 1. 97psi. So something like the long fuel run will do this thus affecting the pump? Sorry to hassle you on this I want the right story, to be clear and factual, not confused! Kind regards, Matt To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "bazzle01" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 21:17:41 -0000 Subject: [80_aus] Re: Diesel Information Day - pump concerns Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com, "Matt Pozzi" wrote: > Sandy, > > With respect to this issue, I am going to 'have a chat with Dave at > Cooma re this' but in the meantime submit the following rational: > > The Walbro is a low pressure fuel pump, it outputs at 10 psi at its > outlet, however when put throught the fuel system, the filter and then Bear in mind some Diesel vehicles with Rotary VE pumps do have a pusher pump from factory standard. Bazzle To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> From: "D.E McRae" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:59:17 +1100 Subject: RE: [80_aus] Re: Diesel Information Day - pump concerns Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com -----Original Message----- From: bazzle01 [mailto:bazzle01@hotmail.com] > Bear in mind some Diesel vehicles with Rotary VE pumps do have a > pusher pump from factory standard. > > Bazzle And of course its set up spec would be in allowance for this. DMc To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 03:21:26 +0100 Subject: RE: [80_aus] Re: Diesel Information Day - pump concerns Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com On 12 Mar 2004 at 8:59, D.E McRae wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: bazzle01 [mailto:bazzle01@hotmail.com] > Bear in mind some Diesel vehicles with Rotary VE pumps do have a > pusher pump from factory standard. > > Bazzle > > And of course its set up spec would be in allowance for this. > > DMc But: Are, according to previous postings, not *all* pumps pressure-fed while being calibrated? And/or: what kind of pressure do these *factory* pusher-pumps deliver? PS: do these pusher pumps also make starting after running dry (much) easier? I would guess yes?....wouldn't that be a good reason for having one with dual tanks either? -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> From: "D.E McRae" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:47:30 +1100 Subject: RE: [80_aus] Re: Diesel Information Day - pump concerns Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com -----Original Message----- From: Willem-Jan Markerink [mailto:w.j.markerink@a1.nl] > But: > Are, according to previous postings, not *all* pumps pressure-fed > while being calibrated? Only if required, to the calibrated spec to suit the vehicle application once installed. > And/or: what kind of pressure do these *factory* pusher-pumps > deliver? > > PS: do these pusher pumps also make starting after running dry (much) > easier? I would guess yes?....wouldn't that be a good reason for > having one with dual tanks either? If you dont run them dry, then this shouldnt be a worry i would of thought. DMc To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Paul R" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 01:51:35 -0000 Subject: [80_aus] cross post from Qld list - pusher pumps Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com I had a play last night with the pusher pump..... I originally put the pump in due to the woeful performance of the 1HDFT when I first bought it. Since it was installed the injection pump has been worked over, so I thought I would go for a quick drive (5km urban) with it disconnected (just power off - still has to have the fuel sucked through it) - car went well - no apparent difference. I have left it diconnected and will see how she goes for a few days. The aim of this was/is twofold - firstly to see if there was a difference due to fuel delivery and / or altered timing. I have also been having a "running on" problem at shutdown. This has only been manifest since the injection pump was re-worked. (the fuel pump went on only a couple of days before the injection pump re- work....). Another benefit of turning the pump off for a few days is to see if the fuel pump changes anything in that regard also. I also noted that as soon as I turned the pump off I can hear a little "tinckle" from the injection pump at idle - it is like a loose washer jangling... When I re-connect the pump & put a little pressure on the front of the pump the noise vanishes.... stranger and stranger. This noise was also there before the injection pump was serviced. Stand by for the next enthralling chapter.... Paul To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> From: "Allan" Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:22:24 +0800 Subject: Re: [80_aus] cross post from Qld list - pusher pumps Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com Paul, have you had the 1HDFT on the dyno?? If so what torque readings are you getting at 700, 1000, 1300, 1600 & 2000 rpm?? Mine went on the dyno last week & I had the pump adjusted (on the vehicle - no overhaul or big expense). The big flat spot has been fixed and now it's now a totally different vehicle to drive. Pulls like a 16 year old school boy. Gained 80 Nm in the rev range between 1000 & 1500 rpm before the lines start to converge again. The torque curves parted at 600 rpm and eventually met again at 2250 rpm. A bit of advice for 1HD-FT owners who think turbo lag is normal - DON'T put up with it. Take it to the experts because in my case it was only a few hours work & not expensive to get fixed. Allan To: dtlc@helios.net From: "Mike Forbes" Subject: [DTLC] Electric Fuel Pump Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 18:05:34 GMT Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net I was having issues with my stacked series of fuel filters on my 13bt swap. The sequence of filters was Tank - NAPA small filter - RACOR heated filter - Fuel Pump - Stock Filter - IP. The fuel pump isn't able to pull fuel through those 2 pumps so I had to bypass them for now. I need to have the RACOR so I can run biodiesel this winter effectively. What I'm wondering is if I can add an electric fuel pump under the hood in front of the RACOR and NAPA filter and have it draw fuel from the tank and push it through the filters to the fuel pump. Since the fuel pump normally functions in a state of vacuum on the tank side will it work to function in a positive pressure state and if so what pressure is ok. Many of the 12v aftermarket pumps allow you to specify what pressure (2.5 - 9 psi). Any suggestions? thanks a bunch, mike forbes Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:37:54 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: [DTLC] Electric Fuel Pump From: "Andre Shoumatoff" To: Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net > I was having issues with my stacked series of fuel filters on my 13bt > swap. The sequence of filters was Tank - NAPA small filter - RACOR > heated filter - Fuel Pump - Stock Filter - IP. The fuel pump isn't > able to pull fuel through those 2 pumps so I had to bypass them for > now. I need to have the RACOR so I can run biodiesel this winter > effectively. > > What I'm wondering is if I can add an electric fuel pump under the hood > in front of the RACOR and NAPA filter and have it draw fuel from the > tank and push it through the filters to the fuel pump. Since the fuel > pump normally functions in a state of vacuum on the tank side will it > work to function in a positive pressure state and if so what pressure > is ok. Many of the 12v aftermarket pumps allow you to specify what > pressure (2.5 - 9 psi). Any suggestions? > > thanks a bunch, > mike > forbes > > --------------------------------------------- > This message was sent by First Step Internet. > http://www.fsr.net/ Hey Mike I saw your thread on ih8mud.com - it is looking great... RE pumps, the lift pump on my engine was disconnected by the previous owner so I only assume that is must be dead. It came with a good working carter electric pump (that makes a little noise but not much) and my rig actually came with another one, identical model, that was brand new so I got two of these carter electric pumps basically for free. They work great, I had one on my firewall but 1) it made too much noise there and 2) I read from another ih8mud.com thread all about electric fuel pumps (and I always knew this) but generally electric pumps like to push not pull. My Racor filter says "for vacuum setups" but I basically wired it in a (very minimal) pressure setup. You can actually get details and see it here. I put a "pre tank" after the main tank to hold an extra gallon of fuel just in case, and so that I wouldn't ever run out of diesel on something funky which happened once when I owned my HJ60 and running out of diesel sucks because you have to bleed the lines, usually. Also, the whole setup does a great job of mixing up the biodiesel quite a bit particularly when you are running blends. Photos and details here. I have a little 120 Racor on my firewall... http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3D234305 Andre From: "Dana Adams" To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: [DTLC] Electric Fuel Pump Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 00:57:44 +0000 Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net >From: "Andre Shoumatoff" >Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:37:54 -0600 (MDT) > >Hey Mike I saw your thread on ih8mud.com - it is looking great... >RE pumps, the lift pump on my engine was disconnected by the previous >owner so I only assume that is must be dead. It came with a good working >carter electric pump (that makes a little noise but not much) and my rig >actually came with another one, identical model, that was brand new so I >got two of these carter electric pumps basically for free. They work >great, I had one on my firewall but 1) it made too much noise there and 2) >I read from another ih8mud.com thread all about electric fuel pumps (and I >always knew this) but generally electric pumps like to push not pull. My >Racor filter says "for vacuum setups" but I basically wired it in a (very >minimal) pressure setup. You can actually get details and see it here. I >put a "pre tank" after the main tank to hold an extra gallon of fuel just >in case, and so that I wouldn't ever run out of diesel on something funky >which happened once when I owned my HJ60 and running out of diesel sucks >because you have to bleed the lines, usually. Also, the whole setup does >a great job of mixing up the biodiesel quite a bit particularly when you >are running blends. Photos and details here. I have a little 120 Racor >on my firewall... > >http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=234305 > >Andre Andre, with a pusher pump, you no longer need to bleed the lines if you run out of fuel. The electric pump primes the entire system. I have a walbro pump on my 80 now, it's great. The Racor pumps are good up to about 15 psi without any problems. I've got a Racor FG500 turbine filter on my truck. When I installed it, the Walbro filled it up in about 20 seconds. Most diesels suck fuel through the filter. this is to ensure that water is trapped at the filter element and doesn't get into the injectors. I originally plumbed my system this way, but discovered the Walbro won't suck enough to prime when it has to suck through the filters. So I used it as a pusher pump. MOST electric pumps will emulsify the fuel and any water in it, such that water will then get past the filter element and into the injectors (bad), but the Walbro will not. It is not a vane-type pump, but rather a piston-type that doesn't whip the fuel up when it pumps. Thats the reason it is a good choice for diesel fuel. Dana Subject: Re: [DTLC] Electric Fuel Pump Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:07:08 -0500 From: FoxSP@health.missouri.edu To: Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 00:57:44 +0000 From: "Dana Adams" > > Andre, with a pusher pump, you no longer need to bleed the lines if you > run out of fuel. The electric pump primes the entire system. I have a > walbro pump on my 80 now, it's great. > The Racor pumps are good up to about 15 psi without any problems. I've > got a Racor FG500 turbine filter on my truck. When I installed it, the > Walbro filled it up in about 20 seconds. > > Most diesels suck fuel through the filter. this is to ensure that water > is trapped at the filter element and doesn't get into the injectors. I > originally plumbed my system this way, but discovered the Walbro won't > suck enough to prime when it has to suck through the filters. So I used > it as a pusher pump. MOST electric pumps will emulsify the fuel and any > water in it, such that water will then get past the filter element and > into the injectors (bad), but the Walbro will not. It is not a > vane-type pump, but rather a piston-type that doesn't whip the fuel up > when it pumps. Thats the reason it is a good choice for diesel fuel. > > Dana So, Dana, will a mechanical lift pump suck through a piston pump like your Walbro, if it's turned off? The 6AT Cummins I'm planning to put in my FJ60 has a mechanical pump on the engine, and I was thinking of putting an electric in, back at the tank, to serve as backup if the mechanical failed, and for priming. I hate listening to electric pumps hammering away, and figure an electric will last a long time as a backup...but seems like it would be tough to draw through a vane pump, but I don't know if it would necessarily be any easier. Maybe a better question is, are there low-pressure electric fuel pumps that would not hinder flow when used as an emergency pusher? Steve Fox, Tornado Alley Cruisers From: w.j.markerink@a1.nl To: dtlc@helios.net Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 18:07:40 +0200 Subject: Re: [DTLC] Electric Fuel Pump Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net On 28 May 2004 at 10:07, FoxSP@health.missouri.edu wrote: > So, Dana, will a mechanical lift pump suck through a piston pump like > your Walbro, if it's turned off? I have been thinking about such a foolproof/redundant concept, IMHO the best solution would be a one-way valve in a bypass-line, along the pump (valve only allowing sucking by the injection pump (lift- pump off/dead), & no flow while under pressure from the lift-pump). Manual/electrical valves don't seem foolproof to me.... > The 6AT Cummins I'm planning to put > in my FJ60 has a mechanical pump on the engine, and I was thinking of > putting an electric in, back at the tank, to serve as backup if the > mechanical failed, and for priming. You can run them simultaneous continuously, for possible improved performance.... > I hate listening to electric > pumps hammering away, and figure an electric will last a long time as > a backup... Are all electric pumps that noisy? Noisy as in noisier than that 6AT Cummins?....:)))) > but seems like it would be tough to draw through a vane > pump, but I don't know if it would necessarily be any easier. Maybe a > better question is, are there low-pressure electric fuel pumps that > would not hinder flow when used as an emergency pusher? You would need some kind of vane pump like in washing machines....no contact between impeller and housing, just sheer centrifugal force. -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] From: "Dana Adams" To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: [DTLC] Electric Fuel Pump Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 21:47:30 +0000 Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net >From: FoxSP@health.missouri.edu >Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:07:08 -0500 > >So, Dana, will a mechanical lift pump suck through a piston pump like >your Walbro, if it's turned off? The 6AT Cummins I'm planning to put in >my FJ60 has a mechanical pump on the engine, and I was thinking of >putting an electric in, back at the tank, to serve as backup if the >mechanical failed, and for priming. I hate listening to electric pumps >hammering away, and figure an electric will last a long time as a >backup...but seems like it would be tough to draw through a vane pump, >but I don't know if it would necessarily be any easier. Maybe a better >question is, are there low-pressure electric fuel pumps that would not >hinder flow when used as an emergency pusher? > >Steve Fox, Tornado Alley Cruisers Hi Steve. BTW, here's the reason I added the Walbro: On the rotary injection pumps, the 1-H motors will perfrom significantly better when fed a healthy supply of fuel, and apparently the stock transfer pump is marginal at best when the engine is under full load. The difference in performance before/after was quite astonishing. I know with the inline pumps, this might not be an issue. On my 80, when I switch off the pump, the engine dies immediately. I don't know if that's because the fuel will not flow through the Walbro when it's off, or if the transfer pump in my injection pump is bad. I could plumb around the pump to find out, but I dont' want to disturb anything back there. It's tucked pretty far up and is a little difficult to access. I chose the Walbro based on info from a New Zealand lister (80 lists, international and ozzie) who runs the 1HD-T motor with the Walbro. He's a diesel wizard, and so far everything he's told me has panned out, so I trust him. He said there's diesels running around down there that have had this Walbro (oir it's predecessor) running fine for approx 20 years. Anyway, he suggested I mount the pump in rubber to minimize noise. I originally planned that, and originally designed the system with the Walbro sucking through the filters. That didn't work, so I had to re-do everything (PITA), and decided to not do the rubber mounts because I'd need to re-do the bracket I'd welded up. I figured I'd try it and if it was too noisy, add rubber. So, the pump is bolted to a bracket that's bolted to the rear muffler bracket (on an 80-series). I can barely hear the pump with the radio off, and when the radio is on, even slightly, you can't hear it at all. From the outside,on that side of the truck, it sounds like a light "clicking" sounds. Not too loud at all. Years ago I had a Ford van, I installed a Stewart/Warner electric pump. I originally bolted it to the frame. That lasted for about 10 minutes. The constant hammering was enough to drive you crazy. The Walbro is SO different! Dana From: "Paweł Górski" To: , <80scool@yahoogroups.com> Cc: "Craig Vincent" Subject: [DTLC] Additional Walbro fuel pump in 1HDT Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:17:40 +0200 Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net I just installed by instruction given by Craig Vincent, my obserwation: 1. better turbo response 2. no air in fuel lines 3. no white smoke from exhaust 4. no problems with cold start (earlier I had to use manual pump on fuel filter) 5. better shifting in automatic transmission Thanks Craig pawel HDJ80 in Poland From: "MCA Webmaster" To: Subject: Re: walbro pump Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:09:04 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" To: "Mike Forbes" Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 10:23 AM Subject: Re: walbro pump > On 8 Jul 2004 at 20:34, Mike Forbes wrote: > > > Wondering if I can get your opinion or if you can point me in the > > direction to an answer? > > > > Still trying to figure out the Walbro pump issue on my rig. I read > > the page you put together on your site and it was very informative but > > still struggling with my issue. > > > > It seems that excess pressure (whatever that number may be 4,7, 10 > > psi?) is damaging to the pump. I'm guessing with my stack of filters: > > Napa 28micron and 2 micron Racor before the Fuel Feed Pump then the > > Stock OEM filter that the pressure at the pump will be low. > > > > The question I have is whether sending the Fuel Feed Pump (not the IP) > > 10psi or slightly lower is damaging to it since it's use to operating > > in a vacuum? > > > > I'm going to install a pressure gauge I think to see what I'm at going > > in to the pump and can then interpret what the IP will be getting. > > What leads you to believe that it is damaging to the (injection)pump? > None of the messages have indicated that thusfar (with plenty of user- > experience to mention that I guess). > > We are talking about diesel pumps, right? > > -- > Bye, > > Willem-Jan Markerink > > The desire to understand > is sometimes far less intelligent than > the inability to understand > > > [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] Hi there Willem-Jan, thanks for the quick reponse. sorry about the slow response. Most of my concern comes from reading the text file you put together of the rather detailed conversations between the folks on the yahoo list regarding this walbro. That is an excellent compilation you did, thanks so much, Here's the quote that made me most curious, It's from Matt Pozzi, about 3/4 way down the list: >What is being said is this, the Walbro pushes at too high a pressure >and this forces too much fuel past the pressure regulation stage of >the injection pump, resulting in excess pressure on a little piston. >This piston controls timing and it is correctly said that changes to >this timing affect the pump and your engine. > >One says no the other yes. As usual it will come down to fine details >and semantics. I agree that high pressure at the inlet will affect the >pump, but low pressure should not. The Walbro is a low pressure pump. > >This needs clarification and this is what I am trying to do. I have >conflicting messages coming in from two reputable shops. ---If you were being very cynical you could say that running a pusher pump is detrimental to a fuel shops business. The front seal on the injection pump is less likely to leak air and cause a front bush premature wear failure, the pump will stay in calibration longer as the vane pump is likely to wear less. I will continue to run Walbro's and recommend them to others. Nissan (yes I know I just swore) run a in tank low pressure pusher to feed fuel to the injection pump on the ZD30 turbo engines so they can't all be bad. If you have any ideas that'd be great. I'm running the 13bt with the following sequence of pumps/filters: Tank Walbro 6067 (24v model) near tank mounted to frame Napa 28 micron filter (only there until gunk from tank is purged because of biodiesel use) Racor 645 - 2micron heated filter Stock Fuel Feed Pump Stock Napa fuel filter IP thanks again, mike forbes moscow, idaho *********************************** To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Paul Roberts" Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 01:01:25 -0000 Subject: [80] Walbro pusher pumps Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Hi All - just a maintenance note for those running pusher pumps.... The pumps have a nylon(?) screen filter which is accessible via the three screws on the bottom of the pump. It is an easy job, it will dump about 100ml of fuel from the body of the pump, so have a catch plan.... Take note of the way the filter comes out as it is a different shape each end. This filter can, and will, block if your fuel is a bit dirty so an annual inspection is a good idea. Just remember that this screen is before any of the engines filters and will be the first place for debri to lodge. Cheers, Paul Brisbane, 95 1HDFT with a clean pusher pump! To: lcool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Matt Pozzi" Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:26:35 -0000 Subject: [lcool_aus] Pusher Pump - again Reply-To: lcool_aus@yahoogroups.com Greg G, may I ask you what your impressions of your Walbro are? I fitted a second unit yesterday as the original one stopped working after the truck warmed up, I suspect bad electonics in it, warranty replaced no questions asked, no invoice needed either. The difference between not having one and having one is quite dramatic IMHO, accelleration is much improved and the motor feels more resposive. Not to mention the chatter my injection pump had on its inlet vane pump. That went away too, must talk to HDS about that it only 12 months out from a complete rebuild post intercooler. A check up really that cost an arm and a leg for peace of mind. I was interested in yours now that you had it for while. Matt To: From: "Greg Goulden" Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 08:12:44 +1100 Subject: RE: [lcool_aus] Pusher Pump - again Reply-To: lcool_aus@yahoogroups.com -----Original Message----- From: Matt Pozzi [mailto:matt@ozpoz.com] Greg G, may I ask you what your impressions of your Walbro are? I fitted a second unit yesterday as the original one stopped working after the truck warmed up, I suspect bad electonics in it, warranty replaced no questions asked, no invoice needed either. The difference between not having one and having one is quite dramatic IMHO, accelleration is much improved and the motor feels more resposive. Not to mention the chatter my injection pump had on its inlet vane pump. That went away too, must talk to HDS about that it only 12 months out from a complete rebuild post intercooler. A check up really that cost an arm and a leg for peace of mind. I was interested in yours now that you had it for while. Matt Hi Matt, My pumps proven reliable thus far, keeps ticking to remind me it's still there (still not rubber mounted). And it seems to keep up with my fuelling changes (black smoke = ample fuel). I haven't tried disconnecting it to try driving without it, but that's certainly the best way to try it. If it's anything like removing a Dtronic, the change is most evident upon removal rather than initial fitment. Regards, Greg Goulden 2000 HDJ105 Melb. AU. To: From: "Darren McRae" Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:44:44 +1100 Subject: RE: [lcool_aus] Pusher Pump - again Reply-To: lcool_aus@yahoogroups.com -----Original Message----- From: Greg Goulden [mailto:hdj105@bigpond.com] > I haven't tried disconnecting it to try driving without it, but that's > certainly the best way to try it. > > Greg Goulden You dont think removing it, so the actual fuel pump the vehicle comes with doesnt have to pull the fuel through it would be the "best" way to try it??? DMc To: From: "john kenniff" Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:10:34 +1100 Subject: Re: [lcool_aus] Pusher Pump - again (chat) Reply-To: lcool_aus@yahoogroups.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darren McRae" > You dont think removing it, so the actual fuel pump the vehicle comes with > doesnt have to pull the fuel through it would be the "best" way to try it??? > > DMc Aaaah, That you Daz? Where's you bin, honey? Been missing... an informed opinion on most subjects. if you don't know, an opinion anyway. some convoluted logic. and.. that incomprehensible sense of humour. welcome back, big guy, John. To: lcool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Greg Goulden" Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:47:33 -0000 Subject: [lcool_aus] Re: Pusher Pump - again Reply-To: lcool_aus@yahoogroups.com --- In lcool_aus@yahoogroups.com, "Darren McRae" wrote: > You dont think removing it, so the actual fuel pump the vehicle comes with > doesnt have to pull the fuel through it would be the "best" way to try it??? > > DMc You think I have to "remove" the pump from the vehicle to be able to "best" ascertain any benefit? I would have thought disconnecting it from the fuel circuit by rerouting a hose (disconnecting is not limited to only breaking the electrical circuit) would have been sufficient? GG. To: From: "Darren McRae" Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:54:04 +1100 Subject: RE: [lcool_aus] Re: Pusher Pump - again Reply-To: lcool_aus@yahoogroups.com -----Original Message----- From: Greg Goulden [mailto:hdj105@bigpond.com] > You think I have to "remove" the pump from the vehicle to be able > to "best" ascertain any benefit? > > I would have thought disconnecting it from the fuel circuit by > rerouting a hose (disconnecting is not limited to only breaking the > electrical circuit) would have been sufficient? > > GG. Ill pay that one Mr Checker. DMc 8-)