Date sent: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:22:08 +1100 (EST) From: "Stockman,Roy" To: "'80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com'" <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: [80] Interesting article in banning steel bulbars in Australia Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Bullbar crackdown will forever change the motoring front First Published: The Sydney Morning Herald Thursday, December 21, 2000 By Robert Wainwright Thousands of motorists could be forced to make changes to bullbars before they can re-register their vehicles under a crackdown agreed to by motoring authorities. The moves come in the wake of new figures showing that Australian pedestrians are more at risk than those in most other OECD nations. Bullbars have been blamed for one-fifth of pedestrian deaths in Australia. Under the changes, which could come into effect within three years, steel bullbars would almost certainly be banned in favour of "pedestrian friendly" plastic bars already being developed in Australia. And bullbars would no longer be allowed to carry lights, antennas or fishing rod holders because of the added danger of protruding steel edges. The breakthrough, following a decade-long and often heated debate over bullbars, was thrashed out at a two-day conference involving groups such as the NSW Roads and Traffic Authority, Standards Australia and the NRMA. The RTA has confirmed the planned changes in a draft circular to its vehicle inspectors, obtained by The Sydney Morning Herald. The chairman of last week's conference, Mr Brian Wells, said bullbars were already tech nically illegal under an Australian design rule. But authorities had never acted because of the feared public backlash, particularly in rural areas. "There is no doubt they are illegal, but the authorities turned a blind eye to them for years," Mr Wells said. "It would have been unachievable, politically, for regulatory authorities to insist that bullbars be taken off completely so we had to find a compromise. "We believe we can enforce new standards by 2003. All bullbars will eventually have to meet the standards." Mr Wells said recent design innovations meant it might be possible to build a safe, plastic bullbar. "We believe it is possible to design and make a bullbar which has less liability to injure a pedestrian. In layman's terms, it would mean that a child hit at 40 kilometres will probably survive." The president of the Pedestrian Council of Australia, Mr Harold Scruby, welcomed the changes. "It is a very significant move because it is the first time that any state government has actually formally embraced the problem," he said. "Pedestrian deaths are now at Third World levels ... Of the 350 pedestrians who die on the roads each year, 70 are attributable to bullbars. It is a wonder that governments have turned a blind eye to this because ... practically every bullbar in Australia is illegal. It is only a matter of time before a lawsuit evolves and a government is joined in any damage action for approving these illegal devices." The RTA circular says: "Badly designed bullbars fitted to vehicles increase the likelihood of injury or damage to a person or another vehicle making contact with the vehicle. "Of particular concern are items protruding forward of the bumper bar ... such as brackets supporting aerials and lights." From: "Ian B" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80] Interesting article in banning steel bulbars in Australia[chat] Date sent: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 19:45:39 +0930 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Picked up this ARB reply off another list. Seems some people are being sillier than others during the silly season. Ian B ******************************************** Dear XXXX, thanks for contacting us. We have been besieged by calls from all over the country over this bogus news item this morning. We can only suspect where it came from, but can assure you that it is not factual. There is a draft Australian Standard for the design and fitment of Vehicle Frontal Protection Systems (Bull Bars) currently out for public comment. The committee (on which we have representation) responsible for the standard, met last week and is preparing a new draft after the first round of public comment. There are controversial pedestrian safety clauses in this draft, but they will not lead to a ban of any particular type or material for bull bars, even if the standard was finalised in its current form, which is unlikely. Certain special interest lobby groups and plastic bar manufacturers have been claiming alarming fatality figures for pedestrian deaths associated with bull bars for years and this has inflamed the debate on the subject. The industry ahs always disputed these figures. In a media release dated December 19th 2000, Ron Boswell, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Federal Minister for Transport and Regional Services, stated that the Australian Transport Safety Bureau had recently completed a report on bull bars and road trauma. In this report, it was stated that it was not possible to precisely determine whether the presence of a bull bar significantly increased the risk of physical trauma in vehicle impacts with pedestrians. The claims made by these groups are very clearly inaccurate. Responsible members of the bull bar industry, such as ARB, have always worked with the road authorities and used common sense in designing our bull bars without sharp edges and exposed brackets. The NSW RTA is about to release a set of guidelines that ensure that all bull bars are designed with this sort of approach and this will not affect owners of our products as they have always complied. Please do not be concerned with this alarmist new bulletin. It is based on an article in a Sydney newspaper this morning which is misleading to say the least and appears to be full of inaccuracy. ARB bull bars are legal fitments in all states of Australia and will remain so! Kind regards Greg Milton ARB Corporation Ltd National Sales Office 44 Garden St Kilsyth Victoria Australia 3137 Ph: 61 3 9761 6622 Fax: 61 3 97616807 > What more misleading is the figures quoted in the paper, the real figures are less than 2 even then not substantiated claims. > From: "Norm Needham" To: "80sCOOL" <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Copies to: "Greg Milton" Subject: Re: [80] Interesting article in banning steel bulbars in Australia Date sent: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:09:11 +1100 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com From: S.McDougall Eternity Constructions > > SNIP > > I would not argue that bull bars are better for pedestrians, but once again > the authorities make changes for what appear to be > poorly researched reasons. > > Sorry for the rant, but I can not forget what I saw, nor can I see any gain > in these changes. > Very emotive subject fellas; and we shouldn't dwell on it too much at this time. Suffice to say that the pertinent thing is the (alleged) RTA circular saying "Badly designed bullbars.......blah blah blah." One other thing to remember is that statistics can be made to read how ever one likes. The claims that one third of the pedestrian deaths are caused by vehicles with bull bars may well be true, but read that carefully....caused by "vehicles" with bullbars...not directly by the bull bar. This was borne out by a study last year of the "statistics" used by the pedestrian safety council in their argument against bull bars. It is alleged that they included all deaths from vehicles equipped with bars; including those where the bar did not actually contact the pedestrian, and some where the pedestrians were hit by heavy transport vehicles at high speed on freeways. As an inspector in the current RTA system for registration purposes, I will no doubt be informed by them (RTA) of any pending new rules. I suspect if anything, we will be asked to use our discretion in passing or not passing vehicles with bars that have sharp protrusions. I will keep you informed. For the edification of all, I include below an answer from ARB to an enquiry today. I'm sure Greg won't mind. "Quote" Dear Roy, thanks for contacting us. We have been besieged by calls from all over the country over this bogus news item this morning. We can only suspect where it came from, but can assure you that it is not factual. There is a draft Australian Standard for the design and fitment of Vehicle Frontal Protection Systems (Bull Bars) currently out for public comment. The committee (on which we have representation) responsible for the standard, met last week and is preparing a new draft after the first round of public comment. There are controversial pedestrian safety clauses in this draft, but they will not lead to a ban of any particular type or material for bull bars, even if the standard was finalised in its current form, which is unlikely. Certain special interest lobby groups and plastic bar manufacturers have been claiming alarming fatality figures for pedestrian deaths associated with bull bars for years and this has inflamed the debate on the subject. The industry has always disputed these figures. In a media release dated December 19th 2000, Ron Boswell, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Federal Minister for Transport and Regional Services, stated that the Australian Transport Safety Bureau had recently completed a report on bull bars and road trauma. In this report, it was stated that it was not possible to precisely determine whether the presence of a bull bar significantly increased the risk of physical trauma in vehicle impacts with pedestrians. The claims made by these groups are very clearly inaccurate. Responsible members of the bull bar industry, such as ARB, have always worked with the road authorities and used common sense in designing our bull bars without sharp edges and exposed brackets. The NSW RTA is about to release a set of guidelines that ensure that all bull bars are designed with this sort of approach and this will not affect owners of our products as they have always complied. Please do not be concerned with this alarmist news bulletin. It is based on an article in a Sydney newspaper this morning which is misleading to say the least and appears to be full of inaccuracy. ARB bull bars are legal fitments in all states of Australia and will remain so! Kind regards Greg Milton ARB Corporation Ltd National Sales Office 44 Garden St Kilsyth Victoria Australia 3137 "end quote" Cheers * Norm Needham * * Traction4 / ARB Northside * Sydney, Australia * Trac4@bigpond.com Trac4@telstra.com From: "Ron Smith" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80] Interesting article in banning steel bulbars in Australia [chat] Date sent: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:27:58 +1100 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com At the 4X4 show a couple of years ago I saw a Police vehicle with a HF mount sticking out in frount of the Bull Barr. I had a good look and indicated tp Rod at Kaymar that I would like one of these made. The answer I got was that it would be illegal on my vehicle but the Police get special RTA dispensation. This is the same situation as we will be in with Bull Bars. Ron. From: "Nigel Buxton" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: RE: [80] Interesting article in banning steel bulbars in Australia Date sent: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:59:32 +1000 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com > [mailto:owner-80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com]On Behalf Of Chuck Drier > Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 9:59 AM > To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com > Subject: Re: [80] Interesting article in banning steel bulbars in > Australia > > > Only 350 pedestrian deaths yearly? Doesn't sound too high. Besides, what are > they doing in the road to begin with? Getting crushed by the car alone sounds > life threatening to me. > > Watching out for pedestrians in the road, > Chuck For what it is worth, I have not yet performed an autopsy that I would state that a Bull Bar has killed someone. (Done about 10,000 PMs by now!) I have seen several (read LOTS) of folk creamed by cars without bar work and even more killed in alcohol/ cannabis related roll-overs. Happy Christmas all and drive safe (WITH a BULL BAR) Best wishes, Nigel Rockhampton Queensland mailto:buxtonbogwoppit@dingoblue.net.au http://nigelandcarol.com/ From: "Ian Hocking" To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Subject: [80] Steel bull bars Date sent: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:42:20 +1100 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Group, Can anyone imagine the event where by removing the bull bar (steel, alum,plastic or what ever)from a 4wd would have meant that a pedestrian would survive an impact with the front of the vehicle. I think not. No bar would mean that the person died from contact with the front of the vehicle instead. But how about this for a idea. What about we actually teach our new drivers how to driver properly and not just hand out licences to those who pass lowest common denominator tests. How about we stop parents teaching the kids to drive because the parents only pass on bad habits. This bullbar ban is a load of bulls..t!! Ian Hocking _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From: "Richard W Havard" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: RE: [80] Steel bull bars Date sent: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:26:57 +1100 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Nah, only solution is to use statistics. Frankly I think with accurate examination of available data you will find that there have been very few Pedestrian Fatalities caused by 4WDs driven by Children under 5 years old (in a manual vehicle). Solution: Only Chlidren under 5 years old can be allowed to drive 4WDs on the road. regards Date sent: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 21:11:47 +1100 From: dzilm@melbpc.org.au Organization: . To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Subject: [CHAT} [80] Interesting article in banning steel bulbars in Australia Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Chuck Drier wrote: > > Only 350 pedestrian deaths yearly? Doesn't sound too high. Besides, what are > they doing in the road to begin with? Getting crushed by the car alone sounds > life threatening to me. > > Watching out for pedestrians in the road, > Chuck According to the TAC 20% pedestrian fatalities are due to drunkenness. Bullbar or no bullbar - wont make any difference to somebody trying to commit suicide and make somebody else responsible for their stupidity. Actually I think there is room for the law to ban stupidity - thats what kills most pedestrians (including my aged uncle who simply walked out onto a busy major highway!) -- ----- Dave 94 FZJR80 manual w/- LPG & Safari chip + part time conversion (250K km) Phone Mobile 0408 390 240 Home +61 3 9741 5121 Melbourne, Victoria, Australia mailto: dzilm@!melbpc.org.au-without-the-! Date sent: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 20:36:27 +1100 From: dzilm@melbpc.org.au Organization: . To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Subject: Re: [CHAT} [80] Interesting article in banning steel bulbars in Australia Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com 350 peds per year per 3.5million (here in Victoria). That is killed, not injured. Heaps more survive!. As in most countries, the pedestrian has right of way in any incident with a vehicle. That means the vehicle operator is at fault even if the pedestrian runs into the side of a stationary car on the road! - thats exactly what happened when a drunk pedestrian ran into the side of a friends car while the car was just about to move off from a set of GREEN lights. Air horns are OK, but then we get to the opposite end of the scale - they react and injure themselves because you 'assaulted' them with the sound from the device. wonderful world of people out there who expect everybody else to take responsibility for their stupidity! Enough - in Oz we a following some of the USA less desirable traits! Perhaps the majority of people should take a little more care of THEMSELVES, and use a little CDF! (if you dont know what that is dont ask - but the second word is dog) -- ----- Dave 94 FZJR80 manual w/- LPG & Safari chip + part time conversion (250K km) Phone Mobile 0408 390 240 Home +61 3 9741 5121 Melbourne, Victoria, Australia mailto: dzilm@!melbpc.org.au-without-the-! Date sent: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 12:07:20 +1100 From: RICK HUNTER 0418 398 332 Subject: [80] Oz Bullbars & attachments To: "80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com" <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com A useful site is www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/f_query Search for '29' The first abstract that results, 'vehicle standards information', has much information on bullbars & attachments etc.. Regards, Rick To: "80 List" <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Pieter" Date sent: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:38:00 +0200 Send reply to: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Subject: [80] OZ Bullbar regulation - ARB reaction FYI, and taken from a Patrol4x4 list. Appears the dicussion in Australia is still going on. Cheers, Pieter HDJ100, HZJ74 > We at ARB Corporation, having read the variety of inputs from all of > you, thought you may like to know the actual facts, about what > has become a hot topic since just before Christmas when the media blew > up some mis-information supplied to them. > Firstly,there is a proposed Australian Standard for Vehicle Frontal > Protection Systems currently being circulated in DRAFT only form. > We, along with other industry and community groups, are represented on > the committee which is working on the Standard. > This Standard, may or may not be finalised in its current form. If it > were to be, then certainly bull bars would change from their current > format. There is nothing in this proposed Standard that bans steel or > any other material from being used. > Even if the standard were to be ratified and made mandatory in its > current form, it would only affect bars designed for new model > vehicles. That is, no existing application would be affected and there > is no requirement proposed to have existing installations removed. > Secondly, the State Road Authorities are responsible for roadworthiness > standards in each state. > In Victoria, the RTA has had guidelines published on bull bar design and > safety for many years. ARB has helped formulate these at > times, and complies with them fully. > It is only recently that the NSW authorities have begun to develop > similar guidelines and regulations and it is these that have been > announced before Christmas. They are very similar, common sense rules > about bull bar design and attachments to them. They ban > sharp edges and protrusions, fishing rod holders, raked and dangerous > forward facing designs and other potentially dangerous aspects > of bars that responsible members of our industry gave up incorporating > many years ago. > These rules also cover the design of bars fitted to vehicles equipped > with SRS air bags and similarly take a logical common sense > approach. > The rules do not ban steel bull bars nor recommend plastic ones. > They validate the position that bull bars are alive and well in this > country and whilst some narrow interest groups are active in stirring up > mis-information to suit their own objectives, the reality is, that > properly designed steel bull bars are an effective and necessary item > for vehicles traveling on Australian roads. > Both the NSW and Federal Governments have confirmed that there is no > intention to ban metal bull bars due to the fact that they do > perform a vital role. > Thirdly, and I am trying not to be too commercial here and try to push > the ARB barrow, so to speak, ARB bull bars are recognised > around the world now, as the best engineered and the only serious bars > that are correctly engineered for SRS air bag equipped vehicles. > I could go on for pages about what we do and how unique it is, but will > save that for anyone who is really intested in the technical side > to e-mail me individually. > Our company is prospering in this market because OUR CUSTOMERS tell us > that the product we produce not only works, but that it > does contribute positively to their safety in a variety of ways. > > Greg Milton > National Sales and Operations Manager > ARB Corporation Ltd > Kilsyth Victoria Australia > email - greg@arb.com.au > > taken from this link: > http://landrover.dilusion.co.uk/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000236.html > > FROM: spectrum@frontier.net (Dale Anderson) SUBJECT: Re: How effective is a bullbar? DATE: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:09:13 GMT ORGANIZATION: Spectrum Graphics NEWSGROUPS: rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys,aus.cars.offroad,rec.autos.4x4 On Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:05:48 +0800, "Rob" wrote: >I thought that the name 'bull bar' only came about because of the export >market. They all used to be called 'roo bars' once apon a time, but >that term is obviously a bit redundant anywhere else in the world. >At least the term 'roo bar' has meaning - as they do offer practical >protection against hoppers. Any bar is going to be pretty pointless if >you hit a bull at anything more than walking pace. > When I was working out near Marble Bar in NW Oz, most of the folks there called them 'bung' bars. I won't go into all of the origin of the term (as I was told), but suffice it to say, it had to do with the sound of 'someone' bouncing off the bar. Maybe that term has sunk into obscurity by now and 'roo' bar has been adopted as more politically correct... Dale Anderson spectrum@frontier.net Durango, Colorado FROM: "Mangey" SUBJECT: Re: How effective is a bullbar? DATE: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 20:00:59 +1000 ORGANIZATION: OzEmail Ltd, Australia NEWSGROUPS: rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys,aus.cars.offroad,rec.autos.4x4 Rob wrote in message news:3add7589$0$7401@echo-01.iinet.net.au... > > "Kevcat" wrote in message > news:3ADD70E6.7F7B9DF8@one.net.au... > > > Just to clear something up > > Here in Australia anything other than the stock Bumper bar is > considered > > to be a Bullbar > > > > Kev > > I thought that the name 'bull bar' only came about because of the export > market. They all used to be called 'roo bars' once apon a time, but > that term is obviously a bit redundant anywhere else in the world. > At least the term 'roo bar' has meaning - as they do offer practical > protection against hoppers. Any bar is going to be pretty pointless if > you hit a bull at anything more than walking pace. > > Rob Roo bars were a brand once, those infront of bumper things with clear plastic tube. A bullbar is anything not factory that replaces the bumper. -- Pat Brisbane, Australia, Springs by Slinky, Live Harder, Die Upside Down. http://www.powerup.com.au/~mangey FROM: "Rob" SUBJECT: Re: How effective is a bullbar? DATE: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 23:24:13 +0800 NEWSGROUPS: rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys,aus.cars.offroad,rec.autos.4x4 "Mangey" wrote in message news:3ae2ace0@grissom... > Roo bars were a brand once, those infront of bumper things with clear > plastic tube. A bullbar is anything not factory that replaces the bumper. > > -- > Pat Nah - they were called 'flexi-bars' or something similar. I may be a bit older than you, but I remember when all the bars on cars and 4wds were called roo-bars, and the only things that were called bull bars were the things on road trains that looked like a cross between a 'dozer blade and a stock-yard gate on steroids. It was a marketing thing. Once a company had started calling their roo bars 'bull bars' to give the impression that their bars were stronger than other bars, then all the rest had to follow suit. I've seen a lot of 'roo bars' on old Nissans and LCs that were a lot beefier than any of the 'bull bars' that companies like ARB sell now. Rob