FROM: "Maarten A.E.Bakker" SUBJECT: aircovulling DATE: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:59:58 +0000 (UTC) ORGANIZATION: Delft University of Technology NEWSGROUPS: nl.auto Hoi, Ik heb zelf geen airco, maar lees regelmatig over problemen met de diverse vulgassen... Ik liep tegen deze link aan: http://www.autofrost.com/ Wat denken de kenners ervan? Is het nieuwe wijn in oude vaten, of kan het met het R12 verbod uitkomst bieden? --- Met vriendelijke groet, Maarten Bakker. FROM: w.j.markerink@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) SUBJECT: Re: aircovulling DATE: Mon, 15 Oct 01 22:33:57 GMT NEWSGROUPS: nl.auto In article <9qfm8u$o90$1@news.tudelft.nl>, "Maarten A.E.Bakker" wrote: >Hoi, > >Ik heb zelf geen airco, maar lees regelmatig over problemen met de diverse >vulgassen... Ik liep tegen deze link aan: http://www.autofrost.com/ > >Wat denken de kenners ervan? Is het nieuwe wijn in oude vaten, of kan het >met het R12 verbod uitkomst bieden? Ik meen dat dat het bedrijf is achter ene George (achternaam vergeten; heb jaren geleden met hem geconverseerd in rec.autos.tech, weinig andere berichten gepost sindsdien, dus als je op datum sorteert en naar mijn naam zoekt moet je hem tegenkomen....hmm, wacht, zie hieronder); er zijn pogingen geweest om dat gas ook in Europa onder licentie te produceren, maar alle grote gasfabrikanten weigerden om de goedkeuringsprocedure voor dat spul op te starten, en zonder dat mogen jij en ik het niet gebruiken, zeker niet in een auto. Ik meen dat iemand van Autotemp er toen nog achteraan heeft zitten vangen (heb hem een centimeter uitdraaien van newsgroups en websites gegeven), en die kreeg dat verhaal toen viavia te horen (al dat WTO-geneuzel heeft natuurlijk ook geen ene reet zin als je je vervolgens door de ecomaffia laat dwarsbomen). Echter, wat ik sindsdien leerde, en nog veel leuker is, is ordinair propaangas. Mag ook niet, maar is nog veel efficienter (wegens ontvlambaarheid zou niemand er ook een vergunning voor krijgen). Australiers hebben hier een handje van (net als met LPG-boosters op normale diesels....dat geintje laat een turbo verbleken....:)). http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/r12_lpg.txt http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/dies_lpg.txt (en http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/r134dead.txt voor diegenen die menen dat LPG gevaarlijker is dan R134) Er zijn overigens wel alternatieve gassen in Europa toegelaten, met name in Frankrijk en Duitsland (en misschien inmiddels ook in NL, tijdje niet meer bij mijn Autotemp dealer geweest), maar niet met zo'n duidelijk 'verbeterde efficiency' verhaal als bij die gassen uit de USA....toen R12 net verboden was zag je nog wel eens een Duits artikel over de alternatieven....moet ook nog ergens wat documentatie hebben liggen....maar *waar*....;)) xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From: ghg@worldserver.com (ghg@worldserver.com) Subject: Re: What's the replacement for R-134a? Newsgroups: rec.autos.tech Date: 1997/06/14 In article <33A0A63C.7BF9@acs.tamu.edu>, y0h8797@acs.tamu.edu wrote: > > I posted a question about car refrigerant. Thanks for responses. But I > want to rephrase the question this time. > > I know R-134a is used in place of R-12. A common complaint is it does > not cool as well as R-12. (A less annoying problem is it has to stay in > a higher pressure system than R-12 does.) Because of the first problem, > many companies or people are trying to find a replacement for R-134a > which (1)cools better and (2)does no harm to the ozone layer. Now my > question is (a)has any of these new refrigerants been approved by EPA? > (b)if yes, when will any car maker start to use it or already started? > > The importance of the questions is, if I can buy a car with the > post-R-134a (so to speak) refrigerant, I have every reason to avoid a > car with R-134a, i.e., skip those years when the cars are equipped with > R-134a refrigerant. > > Yong A few points to consider.. Some "new" cars do a very good job (mfgr with R-134a), others do not do so well. If the compressor and condenser are 50% larger than their R-12 counterparts, and the system is properly assembled (must by very "dry" as residual moisture will cause the PAG oil and refrigerant to break down and cause early failures).. When buying a new car, check the size and airflow of the condenser and try to get a displacement on the compressor and compare it with similar R-12 displacements.. on the proper assembly, this is very hard, since the production line may stop with your A/C partially assembled, over a hot & humid weekend.. and you get a "wet" system.. We used to give out refrigerant moisture indicators, which could test for abnormal high moisture values in new cars and dealers used those to service systems (recover R12, new drier, pump down, recharge with dry refrigerant) before selling the car as "new".. They were seeing nearly 100% failures in 6mo to 1 year from moisture (acid eat outs, plug ups, etc), in warranty and a mad customer (these were top of the line models). It doesnt seem to make any difference on the assembly of bottom or top of line models..They have good and bad days. If one just removes the R-134a refrigerant from a R-134a system and recharges with R-12, Autofrost, CHillit, Hotshot, Frigc FR12, Freeze12, or any CFC/HCFC refrigerant, the system will work (very well) for a week or two until the PAG oil breaks down and the compressor fails. There are several airshops that take poorly performing R-134a systems (either new or retrofit) and convert them to Chill-it (sister to Autofrost) or Autofrost. They have to flush well and remove the PAG (or POE) oils and may have to remove the compressor to get the PAG oil out first and recharge with mineral oil, and then with Autofrost or CHill-it refrigerant. Factory R-134a systems offer exceptional performance when converted to Autofrost or Chill-it. This is a pretty labor intensive process though. Our marketing mgr has a 1994 black Cadillac (factory R-134a), that would only produce 65 degree duct temps at best. I invented a drop-in substitute for R-134a (all HFCs, no ozone depl), about a year ago. This refrigerant was charged into the above Cadillac, and produced about 39 deg F duct temps. It was run all winter in Florida with excellent results. This refrigerant is formulated to replace R-134a. It requires PAG or POE (ester) oils and will not work in R-12 mineral oil systems. This is less much labor intensive than complete flushing/oil changing and recharging a R-134a system and using a chlorinated refrigerant or blend. As far as I know, Non ozone depleting replacements for R-134a, do not need to be "approved" (or found acceptable) by the EPA. However, unless noted by the EPA, they must not be vented and must be recaptured. THe 1990 Clean Air Act contains nothing about EPA SNAP approval needed for replacing non ozone depleting substances. I will post more info after more test info is in. Will car makers ever use it? Probably not. --ghg (inventor of Autofrost (R-406A), Chillit (R-414A), GHG-HP and others) Oh ja, deze kwam ik ook nog tegen xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx FROM: chicsdigj@aol.com (Chicsdigj) SUBJECT: origin of car AC, (joke) DATE: 19 Jun 1999 13:16:27 GMT ORGANIZATION: AOL http://www.aol.com NEWSGROUPS: rec.autos.4x4 << It was a sweltering August day when the Cohen brothers entered the posh Dearborn, Michigan, offices of Henry Ford, the car maker, "Mr. Ford," announced Norman Cohen, the eldest of the three. "We have a remarkable invention that will revolutionize the automobile industry." Ford looked skeptical, but their threat to offer it to the competition kept his interest piqued. "We would like to demonstrate it to you in person." After a little cajoling, they brought Mr. Ford outside and asked him to enter a black automobile parked in front of the building. Hyman Cohen, the middle brother, opened the door of the car. "Please step inside, Mr. Ford." "What!!!" shouted the tycoon, "Are you crazy? It must be two hundred degrees in that car !!" "It is," smiled the youngest brother, Max, "but sit down Mr. Ford, and push the white button." Intrigued, Ford pushed the button. All of a sudden a whoosh of freezing air started blowing from vents all around the car, and within seconds the automobile was not only comfortable, it was quite cool. "This is amazing !" exclaimed Ford. "How much do you want for the patent." Norman spoke up, "The price is one million dollars." Then he paused. "And there is something else. The name 'Cohen Brothers Air-Conditioning' must be stamped right next to the Ford logo!" "Money is no problem," retorted Ford, "but there is no way will I have a Jewish name next to my logo on my cars!!' They haggled back and forth for a while and finally they settled. Five million dollars, but the Cohens'name would be left off. However, the first names of the Cohen brothers would be forever emblazoned upon the console of every Ford air conditioning system. And that is why even today, whenever you enter a Ford vehicle, or any vehicle you will see those three names clearly printed on the air conditioning control panel: NORM HI MAX. ^ ^ ^ >> -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]