From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" To: ihc-digest@digest.net Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 04:44:02 +0200 Subject: [ihc] LWB 1200 Travelall Firefighter in Sweden Cc: offroad@offroadlist.com Reply-To: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Lovely....:)) http://www.blocket.se/view/5700441.htm?caller=vnl_s&l=0&c=1&city=0 Wonder whether this was a factory wheelbase with local/Swedish assembly of Travelall-panels, or an ordinary Travelall simply sliced and extended (both frame and body). More common in Swedish firebrigades is/was the standard wheelbase with metal side/cargo windows. Wish these long babies were more common, easier to sacrifice one for a camper-conversion....:)) PS: did such a model ever exist in the USA? (IHC did have a factory in Sweden for decades (since early 1900 IIRC), so the actual production-location might not be that easy to determine....hence my local-assembly ponderings) Will ask the seller a few more pix, far too few around to miss that chance. Oh, 40.000 SEK is about 4000 euro / 6000 US$.... Oh2, if anyone sees any value in this US-made oldtimer....;)) http://www.blocket.se/view/5677355.htm?caller=vnl_s&l=0&c=1&city=9 -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] From: "Allan Ericson" To: Subject: Re: [ihc] LWB 1200 Travelall Firefighter in Sweden Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 20:51:19 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 7:44 PM > Lovely....:)) > > http://www.blocket.se/view/5700441.htm?caller=vnl_s&l=0&c=1&city=0 > > > Wonder whether this was a factory wheelbase with local/Swedish > assembly of Travelall-panels, or an ordinary Travelall simply sliced > and extended (both frame and body). > > More common in Swedish firebrigades is/was the standard wheelbase > with metal side/cargo windows. > > Wish these long babies were more common, easier to sacrifice one for > a camper-conversion....:)) > > PS: did such a model ever exist in the USA? > (IHC did have a factory in Sweden for decades (since early 1900 > IIRC), so the actual production-location might not be that easy to > determine....hence my local-assembly ponderings) > > Will ask the seller a few more pix, far too few around to miss that > chance. > > Oh, 40.000 SEK is about 4000 euro / 6000 US$.... > > > > Oh2, if anyone sees any value in this US-made oldtimer....;)) > > http://www.blocket.se/view/5677355.htm?caller=vnl_s&l=0&c=1&city=9 > Longer travelalls were made in the later D series (69-75) but I've never seen one like this. The hooks on the side of the body and the change in the rear panels make it hard to gauge how long is is. The wheels seem to be "about" where they would be on a standard 119" wb. travelall for that year. The next sized "standard" wheel base for IH trucks of that year was 12 inches longer, at 131". The third door with the handle over the wheel well makes me think this is a standard "long" wheel base frame and a customized travelall body. The 4th "door handle" is hard to discern, and could be a cargo door or something. These are obviously not stock door handles, either. Very nice find. To: ihc-digest@digest.net Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:34:37 -0500 Subject: Re: [ihc] LWB 1200 Travelall Firefighter in Sweden From: Howard R Pletcher I suspect this is an aftermarket conversion of a standard Travelall. I've never heard of anything other than the standard 119" wheelbase Travelall coming out of the Springfield Plant. I can't say I've seen one just like this, but ambulance conversion companies did extend the body in various ways to fit their designs. We did have the 8 and 10 door "Airporter" conversions of the later model Travelalls that were done by Stageway Coaches, but all IH did was provide an appropriate T/A for Stageway to operate on and then market the end result. IHC did have a plant in Sweden, but to my knowledge, they did not assemble trucks there, only farm equipment. If you can get the VIN off this truck, we should be able to tell where it was built. If the VIN plate says "International Harvester Company, Chicago, IL" as I suspect it does, then the truck was built at the Springfield Plant. If it says "International Harvester Company, Wherever, Sweden" then it was built in Sweden. For a 1963, a US serial number should be in the format "SB#######" As for the old-timer, I guess the Triple Diamond emblem on the grille should be worth something. I'm not too sure about the rest of it. Howard From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" To: ihc-digest@digest.net, offroad@offroadlist.com Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 22:59:11 +0200 Subject: [ihc] Re: LWB 1200 Travelall Firefighter in Sweden On 6 Aug 2005 at 20:51, Allan Ericson wrote: > Longer travelalls were made in the later D series (69-75) but I've never > seen one like this. The hooks on the side of the body and the change in the > rear panels make it hard to gauge how long is is. The wheels seem to be > "about" where they would be on a standard 119" wb. travelall for that year. > The next sized "standard" wheel base for IH trucks of that year was 12 > inches longer, at 131". The third door with the handle over the wheel well > makes me think this is a standard "long" wheel base frame and a customized > travelall body. The 4th "door handle" is hard to discern, and could be a > cargo door or something. These are obviously not stock door handles, either. > > Very nice find. Hmm....checked more carefully, comparing it with a Swedish regular Travelall firefighter (metal panels), but this stretched version is definitely not a sliced+expanded Travelall....it completely lacks the most significant style-element, the rear 'finned'(?) tail-light section.... Also, the only other good picture I have from another sample, taken more sideways, with more equipment loaded on the rear-bumper, suggests that there are no tail-doors at all, cq that all access to the rear cargo section is gained by the last/4th side-door....so the entire tail panel wasn't much of a challenge to the engineers either....8-)) Shame....to me, most of the appeal of a Travelall to me is in these unique tail-light fins (and the dashboard, but that might be an European-sensitivity, not being used to stylish/car-like dashboards on larger/utility trucks of that era). So, that makes the assumption stronger that the conversion was based on a 1300 Travellette/crewcab, not? (btw, the full-floating rear axle would already have made it a 1210, correct?....and as Travellette a 1310?) Btw, those doorhandles are indeed not stock, but it's charming to see that the conversion-company put so much effort in overall style. (they look like the hatch-panel handles found on some other Swedish utility vehicles, including firefighters (Volvo TGB/C3-series), but those are square, while these seem more circular) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] From: "Allan Ericson" To: Subject: Re: [ihc] LWB 1200 Travelall Firefighter in Sweden Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 15:00:40 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 1:49 PM > On 6 Aug 2005 at 20:51, Allan Ericson wrote: > >> Longer travelalls were made in the later D series (69-75) but I've never >> seen one like this. The hooks on the side of the body and the change in >> the >> rear panels make it hard to gauge how long is is. The wheels seem to be >> "about" where they would be on a standard 119" wb. travelall for that >> year. >> The next sized "standard" wheel base for IH trucks of that year was 12 >> inches longer, at 131". The third door with the handle over the wheel >> well >> makes me think this is a standard "long" wheel base frame and a >> customized >> travelall body. The 4th "door handle" is hard to discern, and could be a >> cargo door or something. These are obviously not stock door handles, >> either. >> >> Very nice find. > > Hmm....checked more carefully, comparing it with a Swedish regular > Travelall firefighter (metal panels), but this stretched version is > definitely not a sliced+expanded Travelall....it completely lacks the > most significant style-element, the rear 'finned'(?) tail-light > section.... > Also, the only other good picture I have from another sample, taken > more sideways, with more equipment loaded on the rear-bumper, > suggests that there are no tail-doors at all, cq that all access to > the rear cargo section is gained by the last/4th side-door....so the > entire tail panel wasn't much of a challenge to the engineers > either....8-)) > > > Shame....to me, most of the appeal of a Travelall to me is in these > unique tail-light fins (and the dashboard, but that might be an > European-sensitivity, not being used to stylish/car-like dashboards > on larger/utility trucks of that era). > > > So, that makes the assumption stronger that the conversion was based > on a 1300 Travellette/crewcab, not? > (btw, the full-floating rear axle would already have made it a 1210, > correct?....and as Travellette a 1310?) > > Btw, those doorhandles are indeed not stock, but it's charming to see > that the conversion-company put so much effort in overall style. > (they look like the hatch-panel handles found on some other Swedish > utility vehicles, including firefighters (Volvo TGB/C3-series), but > those are square, while these seem more circular) > Willem-Jan, The model numbers from 63 to early 71 were: C1000 series, 63-64 D1000 series, 65 1000A series, 66 1000B series, 67 1000C series, 68 1000D series, 69 *this is when the change to square body took place. 1000A series, 70 1000B series, 71 Change mid year to 1010 series, drop the letter, mid 71 100 series, 74-75, end of production. Wheel bases were 119, 131, and the two lengths of travelette. Prior to 61, the wheel bases were all 5 inches shorter. After 73, one inch longer. This was also true with the travelette frames. Hope that helps. From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" To: ihc-digest@digest.net Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 20:57:00 +0200 Subject: Re: [ihc] LWB 1200 Travelall Firefighter in Sweden On 7 Aug 2005 at 15:00, Allan Ericson wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" > Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 1:49 PM > > > > On 6 Aug 2005 at 20:51, Allan Ericson wrote: > > > >> Longer travelalls were made in the later D series (69-75) but I've never > >> seen one like this. The hooks on the side of the body and the change in > >> the > >> rear panels make it hard to gauge how long is is. The wheels seem to be > >> "about" where they would be on a standard 119" wb. travelall for that > >> year. > >> The next sized "standard" wheel base for IH trucks of that year was 12 > >> inches longer, at 131". The third door with the handle over the wheel > >> well > >> makes me think this is a standard "long" wheel base frame and a > >> customized > >> travelall body. The 4th "door handle" is hard to discern, and could be a > >> cargo door or something. These are obviously not stock door handles, > >> either. > >> > >> Very nice find. > > > > Hmm....checked more carefully, comparing it with a Swedish regular > > Travelall firefighter (metal panels), but this stretched version is > > definitely not a sliced+expanded Travelall....it completely lacks the > > most significant style-element, the rear 'finned'(?) tail-light > > section.... > > Also, the only other good picture I have from another sample, taken > > more sideways, with more equipment loaded on the rear-bumper, > > suggests that there are no tail-doors at all, cq that all access to > > the rear cargo section is gained by the last/4th side-door....so the > > entire tail panel wasn't much of a challenge to the engineers > > either....8-)) > > > > > > Shame....to me, most of the appeal of a Travelall to me is in these > > unique tail-light fins (and the dashboard, but that might be an > > European-sensitivity, not being used to stylish/car-like dashboards > > on larger/utility trucks of that era). > > > > > > So, that makes the assumption stronger that the conversion was based > > on a 1300 Travellette/crewcab, not? > > (btw, the full-floating rear axle would already have made it a 1210, > > correct?....and as Travellette a 1310?) > > > > Btw, those doorhandles are indeed not stock, but it's charming to see > > that the conversion-company put so much effort in overall style. > > (they look like the hatch-panel handles found on some other Swedish > > utility vehicles, including firefighters (Volvo TGB/C3-series), but > > those are square, while these seem more circular) > > > > > > > > > Willem-Jan, > > The model numbers from 63 to early 71 were: > > C1000 series, 63-64 > D1000 series, 65 > 1000A series, 66 > 1000B series, 67 > 1000C series, 68 > 1000D series, 69 *this is when the change to square body took place. > 1000A series, 70 > 1000B series, 71 > Change mid year to 1010 series, drop the letter, mid 71 > 100 series, 74-75, end of production. > > Wheel bases were 119, 131, and the two lengths of travelette. Prior to 61, > the wheel bases were all 5 inches shorter. After 73, one inch longer. This > was also true with the travelette frames. > > Hope that helps. But didn't 1100 (2wd), 1200 (4wd) and 1300 (4wd Travelette) exist already in the early 60's? And not just in the late 60's/early 70's? (I archived a bunch of pix in the past, and often put the model-code in the file-name, but it's hard to believe I invented those codes myself (and not took them from the site-description (often Ebay)) Lots of pix here conflict with your listing: http://www.ihsweden.com/indexe.php3?main=medlemsbilare.txt&path=Medlem sbilar&nv=0&bild=4 http://makeashorterlink.com/?F2542139B (although I don't believe the one shown is a 1300, that would apply to the stretched version (which isn't shown there)) Though I also didn't know there were 2 different wheelbases of Travelall, if that is what you say (only aware of that for the Travelette/crewcab). Any pix around to show the difference? Or would those be the stretched ambulance-versions? Btw, this list suggest there were even much longer wheelbases around....or does it include the later (2?) airport-versions? http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/faq/frame_specs.html Here the most extensive Swedish gallery with Travelall's I found thusfar: http://corvinius.se/international/ (but no model-codes sadly) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] From: "Allan Ericson" To: Subject: Re: [ihc] LWB 1200 Travelall Firefighter in Sweden Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:01:18 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" > > But didn't 1100 (2wd), 1200 (4wd) and 1300 (4wd Travelette) exist > already in the early 60's? > And not just in the late 60's/early 70's? Unless the model designations changed for european versions, the C110 evolved to the C1100 in 63. The 71 1200B became the 71 1210 (1100B became 1110, etc) during that year as well. This coincided with the introduction of the Scout 810. The Scout 800 and 810 were produced in 71. The 810 model (name) was soon dropped and Scout II was the designation for the model for the rest of production. The travelall and pickup model numbers changed again in the 74 production year to 100/200, and then in 75 to the 150/200 for the final production year. A 200 could come in so many different versions that it would give you a headache. Travelalls were of the wheelbases previously mentioned, and only the special custom models had anything other than the standard pickup truck frame of 119" throughout the C model years and early D model years. The same frame was used from 63-73 even though the bodies were completely different. The letter or "10" suffix is production year specific. The 100s digit designated the suspension. Before and after 71, model numbers were as follows: All of the xx00 models had a letter to go with them. 1000 is the same as 1010. Independent front suspension, available in 2wd only, half ton. 1100 is the same as 1110, leaf spring suspension, 4x4 or 2x4, half ton. 1200 is the same as 1210, 3/4 ton 2x4 or 4x4. 1300 is the same as 1310, 1 ton 1500 and up varied as to capacity, but you get the picture. > > (although I don't believe the one shown is a 1300, that would apply > to the stretched version (which isn't shown there)) > > > Though I also didn't know there were 2 different wheelbases of > Travelall, if that is what you say (only aware of that for the > Travelette/crewcab). You are correct. Sorry for not being more clear. -Allan To: ihc-digest@digest.net Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 21:19:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [ihc] LWB 1200 Travelall Firefighter in Sweden From: Howard R Pletcher On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 20:57:00 +0200 "Willem-Jan Markerink" writes: > > But didn't 1100 (2wd), 1200 (4wd) and 1300 (4wd Travelette) exist already in the early 60's? > And not just in the late 60's/early 70's? To expand a bit on what Allan replied about the light line models, IH light line models were 1s, 2s and 3s (K-1, K-2, K-3, etc starting with the C-1s in the 1930s up through the KB series thru 1949. In 1950 the L series with 100 number designations appeared (L-110, L120, etc), followed by the R, S, A, B and finally the C-100 series that ran through 1962. In 1963, the numbers became the 1000s that you are familiar with. So no, there was no 1100 series before 1963, although its equvalent in the 110 series did exist. And the numbers indicated the general size rating, not a 2WD or 4WD situation All models were available in 2WD with first 4WD first appearing on the 140 model (1953), then the 120 series (1955), and finally 1100 4x4s appeared sometime in the mid-1960s, 1967 or earlier. The Travelettes appeared in 1957 in the A-110 and 120 series and Crismon says there were 68 A-110/120 Travelettes built 1957-1959 with 5 A-130 Travelettes entering the lineup sometime in that period. As truck weights increased, the 1/2 ton (110/1100 series) Travelettes were dropped. But no 810 Scout was ever officailly introduced. That was the preproduction designation which was changed to Scout II before production although some references to 810 made it through on linesets and other paperwork. Those Scouts were officially Scout IIs. Howard From: "Allan Ericson" To: "Howard R Pletcher" , Subject: Re: [ihc] LWB 1200 Travelall Firefighter in Sweden Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 10:42:14 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard R Pletcher" > > And the numbers indicated the general size rating, not a 2WD or 4WD > situation All models were available in 2WD with first 4WD first > appearing on the 140 model (1953), then the 120 series (1955), and > finally 1100 4x4s appeared sometime in the mid-1960s, 1967 or earlier. 1963 > The Travelettes appeared in 1957 in the A-110 and 120 series and Crismon > says there were 68 A-110/120 Travelettes built 1957-1959 with 5 A-130 > Travelettes entering the lineup sometime in that period. As truck > weights increased, the 1/2 ton (110/1100 series) Travelettes were > dropped. As a marketing designation, that is true, but there is a factory original R110 in my town. Apparently 50 or so were sold to the railroad. I don't believe it's actually "designated" as a travelette, though. Just a 4 door pickup truck. There are pictures of this truck from when it showed up at the '03 AZIHR. > But no 810 Scout was ever officailly introduced. That was the > preproduction designation which was changed to Scout II before production > although some references to 810 made it through on linesets and other > paperwork. Those Scouts were officially Scout IIs. > > Howard Of this I have no doubt, but there were several scouts released with the 810 model designation on the VIN tag. The timing of the release of the scout was about the same as the mid-production-year switch to the 1x10 series pickups and travelalls, so "somebody somewhere" started the ball rolling along those lines and made it stick for a while, at least. That was really the point I was trying to make. -Allan From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" To: ihc-digest@digest.net Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:38:48 +0200 Subject: Re: [ihc] LWB 1200 Travelall Firefighter in Sweden On 7 Aug 2005 at 4:44, Willem-Jan Markerink wrote: > Lovely....:)) > > http://www.blocket.se/view/5700441.htm?caller=vnl_s&l=0&c=1&city=0 > > > Wonder whether this was a factory wheelbase with local/Swedish > assembly of Travelall-panels, or an ordinary Travelall simply sliced > and extended (both frame and body). > > More common in Swedish firebrigades is/was the standard wheelbase > with metal side/cargo windows. > > Wish these long babies were more common, easier to sacrifice one for > a camper-conversion....:)) > > PS: did such a model ever exist in the USA? > (IHC did have a factory in Sweden for decades (since early 1900 > IIRC), so the actual production-location might not be that easy to > determine....hence my local-assembly ponderings) > > Will ask the seller a few more pix, far too few around to miss that > chance. > http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/IHC/ My assumption that Tollarp in Sweden converted it (like they did decades later still with other firefighters) was correct btw.... > Oh, 40.000 SEK is about 4000 euro / 6000 US$.... Willem (who loves those 2 cart wheels on the rear....wonder whether it could do a wheelie with that....:)) Jan -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" To: ihc-digest@digest.net Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 13:39:29 +0200 Subject: Re: [ihc] LWB 1200 Travelall Firefighter in Sweden On 29 Aug 2005 at 17:38, Willem-Jan Markerink wrote: > On 7 Aug 2005 at 4:44, Willem-Jan Markerink wrote: > > > Lovely....:)) > > > > http://www.blocket.se/view/5700441.htm?caller=vnl_s&l=0&c=1&city=0 > > > > > > Wonder whether this was a factory wheelbase with local/Swedish > > assembly of Travelall-panels, or an ordinary Travelall simply sliced > > and extended (both frame and body). > > > > More common in Swedish firebrigades is/was the standard wheelbase > > with metal side/cargo windows. > > > > Wish these long babies were more common, easier to sacrifice one for > > a camper-conversion....:)) > > > > PS: did such a model ever exist in the USA? > > (IHC did have a factory in Sweden for decades (since early 1900 > > IIRC), so the actual production-location might not be that easy to > > determine....hence my local-assembly ponderings) > > > > Will ask the seller a few more pix, far too few around to miss that > > chance. > > > > http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/IHC/ > > My assumption that Tollarp in Sweden converted it (like they did > decades later still with other firefighters) was correct btw.... > > > Oh, 40.000 SEK is about 4000 euro / 6000 US$.... > > > Willem (who loves those 2 cart wheels on the rear....wonder whether > it could do a wheelie with that....:)) Jan Update2, I managed to extract some vehicle data from the Swedish DOT- system: xxxxxxxxxxxx Svk uppgifter om annat fordon Steg 2 av 2 Fvrklaring fordonsuppgifter Fordonet du svkt dr registrerat pe en privatperson. I enlighet med Person- uppgiftslagen (1998:204) fer Vdgverket inte publicera personrelaterade uppgifter pe Internet. Ddrfvr kan du endast ta del av grundldggande fordonsdata. Om du vill ha fullstdndiga dgar- och fordonsuppgifter lds under rubriken "Vill du veta mer?". Regnr: CWR076 Fdrg: RVD Fabrikat: INTERNATIONAL C 1200 Ersmodell: 1963 Fordonsslag: LB Chassinummer: SB289252 Upplysningar: Fordonsdata Fordonsstatus: I trafik (1995-01-01) Antal dgare: 5 Datum fvr fvrsta reg.: 1963-07-11 Producentansvarig: I trafik fvrsta geng: 1963-01-01 Yrkesmdssig trafik: Nej Fordonet tillverkat: Direktimport: Nej Utredning: Nej Tillfdllig registrering: Nej Tekniska data Effekt kW: 103 Antal passagerare: 5 Max sldpvagnsvikt: Max sldpvagnsvikt B-behvrighet: Max lastvikt: 1000 Kopplingsanordning 1: KULA Kopplingsanordning 2: Ddckdimension fram: Ddckdimension bak: 7.50-16 Kaross: Brandfordon xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx So, does C1200 match our earlier ponderings?....still based on a Travelette? Btw, did anyone else notice the fact that *all* doors are made from *wood*? (see above URL again, and check both door panels and A/roof pillars....even one of the D/E/F-pillars is entirely made from wood, the door-latch neatly cut out....:)) This one fine piece of art....but wood-art, not metal-art! (also notice this odd front/central search-light....directed straight back into the cabin....I first thought it was a fixed map-light, but it still has the interior control handle attached to it....maybe still a map-light, but then with the maps placed on the hood?....:)) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 06:55:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Steven Stegmann Subject: Re: [ihc] LWB 1200 Travelall Firefighter in Sweden To: Willem-Jan Markerink , ihc-digest@digest.net Really nice fire truck. Looks well preserved with all its equipment. Even has the suction hose for dropping into the pond! This is a pretty serious truck! Steve