To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 00:42:15 +0200 Subject: [80] AC-crank pulley desintegrating *twice*? Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com First: why is that damn thing a sandwich construction; steel core, rubber layer inbetween, steel pulley-grooves? Vibrations? Heat? (and/or: does it *need* to be a sandwich, cq does aftermarket exist without?) Second: why do they desintegrate over time, to the point of the outer part falling off? Third: why would the new replacement desintegrate AGAIN within 2000km? (foreign shop (Spain), wasn't there myself when it happened the first time, nor second time) Both idler wheel and AC-pulley itself run smooth; and no changes, servicing or tooling on the engine for more than a year. HDJ-80 1990, manual, factory airco, intercooled since nearly 10 years, 250k km's, last belt-change 210k km's IIRC. -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "r_j_d_one" Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 04:17:30 -0000 Subject: [80] Re: AC-crank pulley desintegrating *twice*? Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" wrote: > First: why is that damn thing a sandwich construction; steel core, > rubber layer inbetween, steel pulley-grooves? > Vibrations? Heat? > (and/or: does it *need* to be a sandwich, cq does aftermarket exist > without?) > > Second: why do they desintegrate over time, to the point of the outer > part falling off? > > Third: why would the new replacement desintegrate AGAIN within > 2000km? > (foreign shop (Spain), wasn't there myself when it happened the first > time, nor second time) > ... The answer to your first question is that the rubber layer helps isolate the compressor crank from the shock loads that occur when the clutch locks up. Don't know the answer to questions 2 & 3 - has anyone checked for an overcharge of refrigerant. Is anyone dumping liquid refrigerant into the low side while the compressor is running? Spraying the clutch down with solvents or other inappropriate cleaners? Rich To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Stuart McDougall" Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 23:10:40 +1000 Subject: Re: [80] AC-crank pulley desintegrating *twice*? Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Willem-Jan Markerink To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 8:42 AM Subject: [80] AC-crank pulley desintegrating *twice*? First: why is that damn thing a sandwich construction; steel core, rubber layer inbetween, steel pulley-grooves? Vibrations? Heat? (and/or: does it *need* to be a sandwich, cq does aftermarket exist without?) Second: why do they desintegrate over time, to the point of the outer part falling off? Third: why would the new replacement desintegrate AGAIN within 2000km? (foreign shop (Spain), wasn't there myself when it happened the first time, nor second time) Both idler wheel and AC-pulley itself run smooth; and no changes, servicing or tooling on the engine for more than a year. HDJ-80 1990, manual, factory airco, intercooled since nearly 10 years, 250k km's, last belt-change 210k km's IIRC. G'day Willem Had a similar problem. Had the misfortune to have it happen in outback South Australia. Stopped at a roadhouse and found the local mechanic. We found that the adjustable pulley arm from a Toyota Coaster bus was almost identical. This unit is cast aluminium and can take a better final pulley. Been fine ever since. regards Stuart McDougall Sydney Australia Ph;0407 104 526 qoatlc80@tpg.com.au To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 19:59:36 +0200 Subject: Re: [80] AC-crank pulley desintegrating *twice*? Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com On 1 May 2004 at 23:10, Stuart McDougall wrote: > G'day Willem > Had a similar problem. > Had the misfortune to have it happen in outback South Australia. > Stopped at a roadhouse and found the local mechanic. > We found that the adjustable pulley arm from a Toyota Coaster bus was almost identical. Hmm....so on a Coaster, that would be the adjustable/tensioning/idle wheel? (btw, are idler wheels called 'pulley' at all?....or is a pulley indeed only one that really transfer torque?) > This unit is cast aluminium and can take a better final pulley. Hmm....what do you mean with 'final pulley'....is the Coaster part complete, or must something else be bolted on to it? 'Cast aluminium' sounds as if that is all I need.... (it would also explain why such a size can be an idler wheel at all, cast iron would be unnecessary heavy) Or do you mean it can take a better belt? (not sure how it could, with Cruiser idler-wheel and pump-pulley staying the same?) > Been fine ever since. That's something I want....:)) PS: probably didn't write the part-number down back then, did you? -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 19:59:36 +0200 Subject: Re: [80] Re: AC-crank pulley desintegrating *twice*? Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com On 1 May 2004 at 4:17, r_j_d_one wrote: > --- In 80scool@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" > wrote: > > First: why is that damn thing a sandwich construction; steel core, > > rubber layer inbetween, steel pulley-grooves? > > Vibrations? Heat? > > (and/or: does it *need* to be a sandwich, cq does aftermarket > exist > > without?) > > > > Second: why do they desintegrate over time, to the point of the > outer > > part falling off? > > > > Third: why would the new replacement desintegrate AGAIN within > > 2000km? > > (foreign shop (Spain), wasn't there myself when it happened the > first > > time, nor second time) > > > > The answer to your first question is that the rubber layer helps > isolate the compressor crank from the shock loads that occur when > the clutch locks up. With such a thin layer of rubber inbetween? (someone else suggested that it might also function as an alignment- compensator, but that seems just as odd, given that thin layer) However, I *do* know that on large buses, the AC-clutch can only kick in below a certain rpm....otherwise the belts might overload & snap....:)) Still a good argument for variable-volume pumps (wobble-plate), which later vehicles sometimes have....not just on/off, but also variation of pumping volume/second. > Don't know the answer to questions 2 & 3 - has anyone checked for an > overcharge of refrigerant. Is anyone dumping liquid refrigerant > into the low side while the compressor is running? Spraying the > clutch down with solvents or other inappropriate cleaners? No messing around with AC-system, other than the belt itself (I even told the person who took it to that shop in Spain that he could knock the mechanic out if he even dared to point a finger to it (old R12, works fine)....;)) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: Norm Needham Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 22:35:57 +1000 Subject: Re: [80] AC-crank pulley desintegrating *twice*? Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" G'day WJ, > First: why is that damn thing a sandwich construction; steel core, > rubber layer inbetween, steel pulley-grooves? > Vibrations? Heat? > (and/or: does it *need* to be a sandwich, cq does aftermarket exist > without?) It's more correct name is "harmonic balancer". Most engines have them; some also have balance shafts. You are close to answering yourself when you query vibration. Harmonic balancers exist to do exactly what their name suggests. They are in fact part of the balancing of the crankshaft, and in engines with long strokes, they are often not simply round, but have weight strategically placed on one side as part of their balancing aid. The rubber is to absorb harmonic vibrations; much the same as the rubber mounted weights one finds on some exhaust systems. > Second: why do they desintegrate over time, to the point of the outer > part falling off? Because they are doing their job. It is not all that uncommon that they do disintegrate. Mass production means that some engines might have more vibration than others. It could be argued that harmonic balancers are practically a service item; and although there is no replacement period, they are something that should be inspected regularly. > Third: why would the new replacement desintegrate AGAIN within > 2000km? Good question? Perhaps the wrong part was fitted? Perhaps not fitted correctly? > (foreign shop (Spain), wasn't there myself when it happened the first > time, nor second time) > > Both idler wheel and AC-pulley itself run smooth; and no changes, > servicing or tooling on the engine for more than a year. > > HDJ-80 1990, manual, factory airco, intercooled since nearly 10 > years, 250k km's, last belt-change 210k km's IIRC. > -- Cheers Norm Needham Tea Gardens - Oz HDJ79 To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Stuart McDougall" Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 00:07:33 +1000 Subject: Re: [80] AC-crank pulley desintegrating *twice*? Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com G'day Willem Comments inserted below Regards Stuart McDougall Sydney Australia Ph;0407 104 526 qoatlc80@tpg.com.au ----- Original Message ----- From: Willem-Jan Markerink To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 3:59 AM Subject: Re: [80] AC-crank pulley desintegrating *twice*? On 1 May 2004 at 23:10, Stuart McDougall wrote: > G'day Willem > Had a similar problem. > Had the misfortune to have it happen in outback South Australia. > Stopped at a roadhouse and found the local mechanic. > We found that the adjustable pulley arm from a Toyota Coaster bus was almost identical. Hmm....so on a Coaster, that would be the adjustable/tensioning/idle wheel? (btw, are idler wheels called 'pulley' at all?....or is a pulley indeed only one that really transfer torque?) [Please forgive limited mechanical knowledge. I'm refering to the arm on which the tensioning pulley is fixed.] > This unit is cast aluminium and can take a better final pulley. Hmm....what do you mean with 'final pulley'....is the Coaster part complete, or must something else be bolted on to it? 'Cast aluminium' sounds as if that is all I need.... (it would also explain why such a size can be an idler wheel at all, cast iron would be unnecessary heavy) [the arm is cast aluminium, the pulley is then bolted onto the arm. The arm is the one that is levered, and locked, to place the correct tension on the belt.] Or do you mean it can take a better belt? (not sure how it could, with Cruiser idler-wheel and pump-pulley staying the same?) [I've since had pulleys fitted that have lasted alot longer then previously, did not try genuine, always seemed to fail in a remote location] > Been fine ever since. That's something I want....:)) PS: probably didn't write the part-number down back then, did you? [ lol, I wish I had a picture to show you the place this arm was fitted, approx 150km's from any town, a fuel stop at an intersection for truckies and travellers, had some 30 wrecks in the back yard and a work shop you could park 6 semi-trailers in. The mechanic took half an hour crawling over various wrecks untill he found the Coaster. If you look on a map, find the turnoff from the Stuart Highway, to Woomera in South Australia, it will give you a feel for the remoteness of the area. If you find a good parts man, the rest should be easy, the trip was the 80's cool trip into South Australia, 5-6 years ago, Coaster was wrecked so could be a late 80's model or early 90's.] To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 20:27:38 +0200 Subject: Re: [80] AC-crank pulley desintegrating *twice*? Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com On 3 May 2004 at 0:07, Stuart McDougall wrote: > G'day Willem > > Comments inserted below > Regards > Stuart McDougall > Sydney Australia > Ph;0407 104 526 > qoatlc80@tpg.com.au > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Willem-Jan Markerink > To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 3:59 AM > Subject: Re: [80] AC-crank pulley desintegrating *twice*? > > > On 1 May 2004 at 23:10, Stuart McDougall wrote: > > > G'day Willem > > Had a similar problem. > > Had the misfortune to have it happen in outback South Australia. > > Stopped at a roadhouse and found the local mechanic. > We found that > the adjustable pulley arm from a Toyota Coaster bus was almost > identical. > > Hmm....so on a Coaster, that would be the adjustable/tensioning/idle > wheel? (btw, are idler wheels called 'pulley' at all?....or is a > pulley indeed only one that really transfer torque?) > [Please forgive limited mechanical knowledge. I'm refering to the > arm on which the tensioning pulley is fixed.] It was more my limited English knowledge Sir....;)) > > This unit is cast aluminium and can take a better final pulley. > > Hmm....what do you mean with 'final pulley'....is the Coaster part > complete, or must something else be bolted on to it? 'Cast > aluminium' sounds as if that is all I need.... (it would also > explain why such a size can be an idler wheel at all, cast iron > would be unnecessary heavy) > > [the arm is cast aluminium, the pulley is then bolted onto the arm. > The arm is the one that is levered, and locked, to place the correct > tension on the belt.] Hmm.... > Or do you mean it can take a better belt? > (not sure how it could, with Cruiser idler-wheel and pump-pulley > staying the same?) > > [I've since had pulleys fitted that have lasted > alot longer then previously, did not try genuine, always seemed to > fail in a remote location] Hmm....what kind of pulleys would you have fitted/replaced afterwards....or do you mean the pulley-belt itself? (I thought 'pulley' only meant '(grooved) wheel', not the belt itself?) > > Been fine ever since. > > That's something I want....:)) > > PS: probably didn't write the part-number down back then, did you? > > [ lol, I wish I had a picture to show you the place this arm was > fitted, approx 150km's from any town, a fuel stop at an intersection > for truckies and travellers, had some 30 wrecks in the back yard and > a work shop you could park 6 semi-trailers in. The mechanic took > half an hour crawling over various wrecks untill he found the > Coaster. I love such shops, and determined mechanics....:)) > If you look on a map, find the turnoff from the Stuart > Highway, to Woomera in South Australia, it will give you a feel for > the remoteness of the area. If you find a good parts man, the rest > should be easy, the trip was the 80's cool trip into South > Australia, 5-6 years ago, Coaster was wrecked so could be a late > 80's model or early 90's.] Hmm....maybe my description of the failing part was confusing....the pulley that failed on mine was not the pulley from the AC itself, nor the idler wheel, but the pulley on the engine/crankshaft. (what Norm correctly describes as harmonic balancer) Unless much heavier overall, it doesn't sound likely that a Coaster *idler* wheel would be adaptable.... -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 20:37:55 +0200 Subject: Re: [80] AC-crank pulley desintegrating *twice*? Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com On 2 May 2004 at 22:35, Norm Needham wrote: > From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" > > G'day WJ, > > > First: why is that damn thing a sandwich construction; steel core, > > rubber layer inbetween, steel pulley-grooves? Vibrations? Heat? > > (and/or: does it *need* to be a sandwich, cq does aftermarket exist > > without?) > > > It's more correct name is "harmonic balancer". Most engines have them; > some also have balance shafts. You are close to answering yourself > when you query vibration. Harmonic balancers exist to do exactly what > their name suggests. They are in fact part of the balancing of the > crankshaft, and in engines with long strokes, they are often not > simply round, but have weight strategically placed on one side as part > of their balancing aid. The rubber is to absorb harmonic vibrations; > much the same as the rubber mounted weights one finds on some exhaust > systems. Ooookay....but: 1) the aftermarket airco on my HJ60 uses no such thing, it runs off the 3rd grove of the crank pulley....and has done so without any problem for nearly a decade. 2) *could* the 80-series HB be 'counter-weight' too, and require specific orientation to work correctly? > > Second: why do they desintegrate over time, to the point of the > > outer part falling off? > > > Because they are doing their job. It is not all that uncommon that > they do disintegrate. Mass production means that some engines might > have more vibration than others. It could be argued that harmonic > balancers are practically a service item; and although there is no > replacement period, they are something that should be inspected > regularly. I *hate* this failure mode....doesn't seem unlikely that it whacks out your radiator and/or fan as well....even apart from the fact that you don't want AC to fail in hot regions. And also apart from the dangers to other traffic, with such large metal parts falling off....:(( And since my HJ60 seems to do fine without HB, I see no reason to go back to the factory solution....*if* I can find a solid replacement that is (still not sure whether the Coaster part is an alternative). Anyone else ever tried finding a solid alternative? (in vain?) > > Third: why would the new replacement desintegrate AGAIN within > > 2000km? > > Good question? Perhaps the wrong part was fitted? Perhaps not fitted > correctly? Any possible or typical errors with that? Is too much or too little belt-tension a possible cause? (can't check any of that now, belt was snapped, not sure what the signs of overheating of the belt could be) Someone suggested out-of-alignment because of sloppy bearings, at idler wheel or pump-pulley....but they seem perfectly tight. Any other pump-wear that could cause this? (while still doing fine as airco?) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 21:54:33 +0200 Subject: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Trying to track down a very rpm-specific noise/vibration increase, at 2800-2900rpm....smooth as ever outside that specific range. 1990 HDJ80/1HD-T, intercooled. Any specific mechanical occurences at that rpm? Where for example would the waste-valve of the turbo open up? Anything likely in the valvetrain or injectors? Can't exclude resonance in the intercooler-radiator yet either, guess I'll have to check with earplugs and a large screwdriver touching those parts too.... Exhaust likewise....I did ask for a larger/longer flexible joint when replacing the old/broken one (already aftermarket, SS/2"), and I thought sound increased a bit back then already, but not the typical sound of a leak. (at that high rpm, I don't think I will be able to block the exhaust either, would I?....hard enough as it is at idle....:)) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "George Couyant" Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 08:47:35 +1000 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Hi Willem, You were having trouble with the harmonic balancer right? The vibration could very well be from the front of the crank where the harmonic balancer sits. That's exactly the rpm range where they have a bit of a wobble once the crank mating surface and/or keyway is damaged. Cheers gc '97 HDJ80 - Melbourne Oz '03 Grande To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Ian B" Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 23:36:14 -0000 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool@yahoogroups.com, "George Couyant" wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" > > > > Trying to track down a very rpm-specific noise/vibration increase, at > > 2800-2900rpm....smooth as ever outside that specific range. > > 1990 HDJ80/1HD-T, intercooled. > > Hi Willem, > > You were having trouble with the harmonic balancer right? The vibration > could very well be from the front of the crank where the harmonic balancer > sits. That's exactly the rpm range where they have a bit of a wobble once > the crank mating surface and/or keyway is damaged. > > Cheers > gc Yep, agree totally. My old 1HZ developed a high frequency vibration that buzzed the foot pedals at 3000rpm. I replaced the HB, but the crank was damaged too (although I didn't realise it at the time) and the new HB came loose within 1000km. I reckon my failure occurred 'just' up the road from Stuart Mac's. I have some photo's on the 80scool_aus list at http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/80scool_aus/lst?.dir=/Ians+Sad+Photo+Collection&.order=&.view=l&.src=gr&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/80scool_aus/lst%3f%26.dir=/%26.src=gr%26.view=l Let you cut and paste to get the link. Willem, I'd also suggest you get a compression and cylinder leakdown test done too. I now think one cylinder that was a bit poorer than the others may have contributed to the HB failure on my truck. Actually, this is a timely reminder. I must check the condition of the HB on my 'new' truck. Ian B 95 HDJ80 near Canberra To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Cc: maarten@all-american.nl From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 02:40:18 +0200 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com On 2 May 2004 at 23:36, Ian B wrote: > Yep, agree totally. > > My old 1HZ developed a high frequency vibration that buzzed the foot > pedals at 3000rpm. I replaced the HB, but the crank was damaged too > (although I didn't realise it at the time) and the new HB came loose > within 1000km. I reckon my failure occurred 'just' up the road from > Stuart Mac's. > > I have some photo's on the 80scool_aus list at > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/80scool_aus/lst?.dir=/Ians+Sad+Ph > oto+Collection&.order=&.view=l&.src=gr&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.ya > hoo.com/group/80scool_aus/lst%3f%26.dir=/%26.src=gr%26.view=l > > Let you cut and paste to get the link. That's okay, if you switch off 'reformat long lines' or 'wrap long lines', it still fits on one line (only problem in my reader is that it is not highlighted as a link beyond the first 100 characters, but at least I can copy&paste it in one go....:)) > Willem, I'd also suggest you get a compression and cylinder leakdown > test done too. I now think one cylinder that was a bit poorer than the > others may have contributed to the HB failure on my truck. Hmm....that was one thing I did ask while my injectors were serviced, at 220k km's (now 255k) but for which the compression-tester wasn't available at that time, sadly. (I do think however that an alternative method was used, pulling the injectors out one by one, alternating, so see if rpm dropped accordingly/consistently/evenly (if not, that cylinder doesn't contribute to power equally, hence leaking)) > Actually, this is a timely reminder. I must check the condition of the > HB on my 'new' truck. Yet the question still is: why can the aftermarket airco on my HJ60 do without? And/or: what would the further failure mode of a unbalanced/oval crank/keyway be, without the airco-HB as an indicator? (I still don't like the failure mode of the HB itself, so I better ask about that scenario and its further symptoms, before replacing it with a solid pulley) And: what are the possible causes for the inbalance in the first place? Only compression? (it runs much too smooth to suspect that anyway....at any temperature, cold/warm, and any rpm) Couldn't be the result, more than 100k km's later, of once choking the engine on a tank of gasoline, could it? And/or: gradual pump failure another possible cause? Maarten, are you reading all this? Any comments? Last but not least: should the mechanic in Spain have checked this possible cause, before giving it his final okay? Or is this high- grade knowledge, not to be expected from an average mechanic, who doesn't see much Cruisers anyway? (and/or: do other models/engines suffer from this too, or is a TDi a more likely candidate?) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Cc: maarten@all-american.nl From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 02:40:06 +0200 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com On 3 May 2004 at 8:47, George Couyant wrote: > Hi Willem, > > You were having trouble with the harmonic balancer right? The > vibration could very well be from the front of the crank where the > harmonic balancer sits. That's exactly the rpm range where they have a > bit of a wobble once the crank mating surface and/or keyway is > damaged. Hmm.... The question then becomes: what was first, the chicken or the egg? Or: would a deteriorating HB cause damage to the crank/keyway in any way? Or only the other way around? Note that the failure-mode of the first desintegration was a HB that had not separated yet, outer ring still on the inner ring (but not rotating anymore, hence airco failure). And any background info why this rpm-range is so vulnerable for this symptom? And/or: *if* the cause is compression-differences, should it then also occur at different rpm's? Willem (still wondering why his 2H can do without a HB....:(( Jan -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Greg Goulden" Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 03:54:37 -0000 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" wrote: > (I still don't like the failure mode of the HB itself, so I better > ask about that scenario and its further symptoms, before replacing > it with a solid pulley) WJ, Toyota obviously didn't like the "failure mode" of that design either. At release of the 1HD-FT, all 9501+ 1H* engines changed HB design. The later design has a solid (ie. non-dampened) a/c pulley mounted to the undampened centre hub of the HB with 4 bolts. This later design carries on in the HZJ105 today. As for the reasons for doing so, I have no idea. Regards, Greg Goulden 2000 HDJ105 Melb. To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Stuart McDougall" Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 22:29:01 +1000 Subject: Re: [80] AC-crank pulley desintegrating *twice*? Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Willem-Jan Markerink To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 4:27 AM Subject: Re: [80] AC-crank pulley desintegrating *twice*? On 3 May 2004 at 0:07, Stuart McDougall wrote: > G'day Willem > > Comments inserted below > Regards > Stuart McDougall > Sydney Australia > Ph;0407 104 526 > qoatlc80@tpg.com.au > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Willem-Jan Markerink > To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 3:59 AM > Subject: Re: [80] AC-crank pulley desintegrating *twice*? > > > On 1 May 2004 at 23:10, Stuart McDougall wrote: > > > G'day Willem > > Had a similar problem. > > Had the misfortune to have it happen in outback South Australia. > > Stopped at a roadhouse and found the local mechanic. > We found that > the adjustable pulley arm from a Toyota Coaster bus was almost > identical. > > Hmm....so on a Coaster, that would be the adjustable/tensioning/idle > wheel? (btw, are idler wheels called 'pulley' at all?....or is a > pulley indeed only one that really transfer torque?) > [Please forgive limited mechanical knowledge. I'm refering to the > arm on which the tensioning pulley is fixed.] It was more my limited English knowledge Sir....;)) > > This unit is cast aluminium and can take a better final pulley. > > Hmm....what do you mean with 'final pulley'....is the Coaster part > complete, or must something else be bolted on to it? 'Cast > aluminium' sounds as if that is all I need.... (it would also > explain why such a size can be an idler wheel at all, cast iron > would be unnecessary heavy) > > [the arm is cast aluminium, the pulley is then bolted onto the arm. > The arm is the one that is levered, and locked, to place the correct > tension on the belt.] Hmm.... > Or do you mean it can take a better belt? > (not sure how it could, with Cruiser idler-wheel and pump-pulley > staying the same?) > > [I've since had pulleys fitted that have lasted > alot longer then previously, did not try genuine, always seemed to > fail in a remote location] Hmm....what kind of pulleys would you have fitted/replaced afterwards....or do you mean the pulley-belt itself? (I thought 'pulley' only meant '(grooved) wheel', not the belt itself?) > > Been fine ever since. > > That's something I want....:)) > > PS: probably didn't write the part-number down back then, did you? > > [ lol, I wish I had a picture to show you the place this arm was > fitted, approx 150km's from any town, a fuel stop at an intersection > for truckies and travellers, had some 30 wrecks in the back yard and > a work shop you could park 6 semi-trailers in. The mechanic took > half an hour crawling over various wrecks untill he found the > Coaster. I love such shops, and determined mechanics....:)) > If you look on a map, find the turnoff from the Stuart > Highway, to Woomera in South Australia, it will give you a feel for > the remoteness of the area. If you find a good parts man, the rest > should be easy, the trip was the 80's cool trip into South > Australia, 5-6 years ago, Coaster was wrecked so could be a late > 80's model or early 90's.] Hmm....maybe my description of the failing part was confusing....the pulley that failed on mine was not the pulley from the AC itself, nor the idler wheel, but the pulley on the engine/crankshaft. (what Norm correctly describes as harmonic balancer) Unless much heavier overall, it doesn't sound likely that a Coaster *idler* wheel would be adaptable.... G'day Willem When I read Norm's reply I realised we were on the wrong track, Sorry I could not be any more help. Regards Stuart McDougall Sydney Australia Ph;0407 104 526 qoatlc80@tpg.com.au To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Norm Needham" Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 22:36:13 +1000 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" > Trying to track down a very rpm-specific noise/vibration increase, at > 2800-2900rpm....smooth as ever outside that specific range. > 1990 HDJ80/1HD-T, intercooled. > > Any specific mechanical occurences at that rpm? WJ, Now that is a classic symptom of a harmonic balancer wobbling because the rubber is deteriorating. It may be OK, and the vibration caused by something else, but check it. Cheers Norm Needham Tea Gardens - Oz HDJ79 To: "80s COOL international" <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Norm Needham" Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 22:37:05 +1000 Subject: Re: [80] AC-crank pulley desintegrating *twice*? Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" > On 2 May 2004 at 22:35, Norm Needham wrote: > > > From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" > > > > G'day WJ, > > > > > First: why is that damn thing a sandwich construction; steel core, > > > rubber layer inbetween, steel pulley-grooves? Vibrations? Heat? > > > (and/or: does it *need* to be a sandwich, cq does aftermarket exist > > > without?) > > > > > It's more correct name is "harmonic balancer". Most engines have them; > > some also have balance shafts. You are close to answering yourself > > when you query vibration. Harmonic balancers exist to do exactly what > > their name suggests. They are in fact part of the balancing of the > > crankshaft, and in engines with long strokes, they are often not > > simply round, but have weight strategically placed on one side as part > > of their balancing aid. The rubber is to absorb harmonic vibrations; > > much the same as the rubber mounted weights one finds on some exhaust > > systems. > > Ooookay....but: > > 1) the aftermarket airco on my HJ60 uses no such thing, it runs off > the 3rd grove of the crank pulley....and has done so without any > problem for nearly a decade. It runs off the third groove on the harmonic balancer. Look closely. > 2) *could* the 80-series HB be 'counter-weight' too, and require > specific orientation to work correctly? The balancer cannot be put on in the wrong orientation. It is located by a key.. > > > Second: why do they desintegrate over time, to the point of the > > > outer part falling off? > > > > > Because they are doing their job. It is not all that uncommon that > > they do disintegrate. Mass production means that some engines might > > have more vibration than others. It could be argued that harmonic > > balancers are practically a service item; and although there is no > > replacement period, they are something that should be inspected > > regularly. > > I *hate* this failure mode....doesn't seem unlikely that it whacks > out your radiator and/or fan as well....even apart from the fact that > you don't want AC to fail in hot regions. > And also apart from the dangers to other traffic, with such large > metal parts falling off....:(( The failure of the AC is incidental to the failure of a harmonic balancer. > And since my HJ60 seems to do fine without HB, I see no reason to go > back to the factory solution....*if* I can find a solid replacement > that is (still not sure whether the Coaster part is an alternative). As I said, look closely. Your HJ60 DOES have a harmonic balancer. Replacement with a solid pulley would possibly lead to catastrophic crankshaft failure. And I think the Coaster part mentioned was the idler or idler arm, or something. The B and H engines in Coasters are similar to those in Cruisers (and have harmonic balancers with rubber). > Anyone else ever tried finding a solid alternative? > (in vain?) > > > > Third: why would the new replacement desintegrate AGAIN within > > > 2000km? > > > > Good question? Perhaps the wrong part was fitted? Perhaps not fitted > > correctly? > > Any possible or typical errors with that? Not enough detail on failure to comment. Perhaps it was like Braggsie's experience? > Is too much or too little belt-tension a possible cause? Doubtful. > (can't check any of that now, belt was snapped, not sure what the > signs of overheating of the belt could be) > > Someone suggested out-of-alignment because of sloppy bearings, at > idler wheel or pump-pulley....but they seem perfectly tight. > Any other pump-wear that could cause this? > (while still doing fine as airco?) Also doubtful. Cheers Norm Needham Tea Gardens - Oz HDJ79 To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 20:03:24 +0200 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com On 3 May 2004 at 3:54, Greg Goulden wrote: > --- In 80scool@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" > wrote: > > > > (I still don't like the failure mode of the HB itself, so I better > > ask about that scenario and its further symptoms, before replacing > > it with a solid pulley) > > WJ, > > Toyota obviously didn't like the "failure mode" of that design > either. At release of the 1HD-FT, all 9501+ 1H* engines changed HB > design. > > The later design has a solid (ie. non-dampened) a/c pulley mounted to > the undampened centre hub of the HB with 4 bolts. This later design > carries on in the HZJ105 today. As for the reasons for doing so, I > have no idea. Hmm....sounds good. Any retrofit/compatibility considerations, when bolting later pulley to older engine? (btw, your description sounds as if the centre hub on older 1HD-T is itself dampened too, not just dampened between center and pulley- grooves?....hard to get a peek in there) Also, while the solid pulley on my HJ60/2H was used for aftermarket airco, do factory airco's on J6 use solid pulley as well? (btw, I noticed that on the 1HD-T, they use a twin set of belts for the main components, side by side, sortof backup/redundancy, while the 2H only uses one (ignoring AC-belt on both). -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 20:15:35 +0200 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com On 3 May 2004 at 22:36, Norm Needham wrote: > From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" > > > > Trying to track down a very rpm-specific noise/vibration increase, > > at 2800-2900rpm....smooth as ever outside that specific range. 1990 > > HDJ80/1HD-T, intercooled. > > > > Any specific mechanical occurences at that rpm? > > WJ, > Now that is a classic symptom of a harmonic balancer wobbling because > the rubber is deteriorating. It may be OK, and the vibration caused by > something else, but check it. Just to get things straight: there are 2 rubber/dampening components on 1HD-T, one between crankshaft and crankshaft main pulley, and one between main-pulley and AC (crank-)pulley? Because the vibration still exists, even with the AC crank-pulley's outer ring having fallen off.... One other question still remaining: should the spanish mechanic have checked this, as a known possible or even likely cause?....either as in possible/likely in general, or as specific to this engine/year? Or: what is the typical life-span of that AC-HB? (assuming perfect other components) (and/or: what is the typical lifespan of the main-pully-HB?) Seems the changed HB on the 1HD-FT is an improvement (HB only between crankshaft and main pulley, AC-HB gone/solid, right?). Prolly cheaper to, being solid metal....;)) (one wonders why Toyota hasn't provided the 1HD-T parts-CD with a superceeded partnumber in this context (just like with the big-end bearings)....:(( -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "r_j_d_one" Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 18:50:48 -0000 Subject: Re: [80] AC-crank pulley desintegrating *twice*? Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com > Hmm....maybe my description of the failing part was confusing....the > pulley that failed on mine was not the pulley from the AC itself, nor > the idler wheel, but the pulley on the engine/crankshaft. > (what Norm correctly describes as harmonic balancer) > Unless much heavier overall, it doesn't sound likely that a Coaster > *idler* wheel would be adaptable.... Ok, you had me confused. I thought you were stating that the AC pulley was two part with a rubber isolater that was failing. If the harmonic balancer is prematurely failing, then I believe you should verify that the injectors are all operating properly and that each cylinder is contributing power in a balanced fashion. I would guess one cylinder out of whack could result in the kind of torsional vibration that would do in the balancer. Rich To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "danamotors" Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 20:10:09 -0000 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com "Ian B" wrote: > Yep, agree totally. Actually, this is a timely reminder. I must check the condition of the > HB on my 'new' truck. > > Ian B > 95 HDJ80 > near Canberra > > /1HD-T, intercooled. Ian, how do you check the condition of the HB? I guess you could look for cracked rubber, but is that about it? What other tests could you apply to the HB to ascertain it's condition? I've seen many HB's over the years that appeared to have some cracks, but they functioned just fine. To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Greg Goulden" Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 22:12:28 -0000 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" wrote: > Hmm....sounds good. > Any retrofit/compatibility considerations, when bolting later > pulley to older engine? Yes, the obvious one is that the a/c pulley and belt runs further away from the engine, which is obvious when you look at the later a/c compressors as the front clutch and pulley is different. Otherwise I would assume it all fits the same. > (btw, your description sounds as if the centre hub on older 1HD-T > is itself dampened too, not just dampened between center and > pulley-grooves?....hard to get a peek in there) Nope, don't think so. > Also, while the solid pulley on my HJ60/2H was used for aftermarket > airco, do factory airco's on J6 use solid pulley as well? Dunno. > (btw, I noticed that on the 1HD-T, they use a twin set of belts for > the main components, side by side, sortof backup/redundancy, while > the 2H only uses one (ignoring AC-belt on both). Yes, all 1H* and 1FZ-FE use a matched pair of drive belts for fan and alternator, and a third for a/c. HJ60 uses one for fan & alt, one for a/c and the 3rd for power steering pump. The HJ60 fan belt's at least a B section belt, compared to less that A section for H*J80. Regards, Greg Goulden HDJ105 To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Ian B" Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 23:27:28 -0000 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool@yahoogroups.com, "danamotors" wrote: > "Ian B" wrote: > > Yep, agree totally. Actually, this is a timely reminder. I must > check the condition of the > > HB on my 'new' truck. > > > > Ian B > > 95 HDJ80 > > near Canberra > > Ian, how do you check the condition of the HB? I guess you could > look for cracked rubber, but is that about it? What other tests > could you apply to the HB to ascertain it's condition? > > I've seen many HB's over the years that appeared to have some > cracks, but they functioned just fine. All I can really do is relate my findings in my case. 1. I could never get the 'matched' pair of fan belts to tighten evenly. The belt at the front was always looser. I bought some Gates green belts to ensure the belts were the same length, but they got eaten up and spat out within a couple of 1000 km. (The deep toothing these belts have proved to be not suitable). 2. Removing the A/C pulley (not that hard to do) and all belts allowed enough access and room to allow me to see the cracks in the rubber of teh HB and also I could physically wobble the pulley groove section relative to the centre section of the HB. 3. The back of teh A/C pulley had a build up of rubber dust in such a fashion I knew it wasn't supposed to look like that. 4. When the HB is REALLY bad (and perhaps already damaged the crank) you'll get a high frequency vibration around 3000rpm. hth, Ian B To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 03:46:16 +0200 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com On 3 May 2004 at 22:12, Greg Goulden wrote: > --- In 80scool@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink" > wrote: > > Hmm....sounds good. > > Any retrofit/compatibility considerations, when bolting later > > pulley to older engine? > > Yes, the obvious one is that the a/c pulley and belt runs further away > from the engine, which is obvious when you look at the later a/c > compressors as the front clutch and pulley is different. Otherwise I > would assume it all fits the same. Hmm....guessing: is that 'distance' difference only in the bracketry of AC-pump and idler-wheel? If so, then the solution is still easy I guess.... Anyone ever tried? > > (btw, your description sounds as if the centre hub on older 1HD-T is > > itself dampened too, not just dampened between center and > > pulley-grooves?....hard to get a peek in there) > > Nope, don't think so. But not the *entire* main pully got rid of the harmonic damper, did it? Only the AC-pully that bolts onto the main pulley? (gotta dig into both parts and repair manuals online to get a better feel for these hard to spot parts....;(( > > Also, while the solid pulley on my HJ60/2H was used for aftermarket > > airco, do factory airco's on J6 use solid pulley as well? > > Dunno. > > > (btw, I noticed that on the 1HD-T, they use a twin set of belts for > > the main components, side by side, sortof backup/redundancy, while > > the 2H only uses one (ignoring AC-belt on both). > > Yes, all 1H* and 1FZ-FE use a matched pair of drive belts for fan and > alternator, and a third for a/c. HJ60 uses one for fan & alt, one for > a/c and the 3rd for power steering pump. The HJ60 fan belt's at least > a B section belt, compared to less that A section for H*J80. Yes, noticed that with closer inspection. How long will an 1Hx/Fx last on one belt, after the first snapped, btw? (or: is that really decent redundancy, or just a limp-home solution?) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Norm Needham" Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 13:11:52 +1000 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" > Just to get things straight: there are 2 rubber/dampening components > on 1HD-T, one between crankshaft and crankshaft main pulley, and one > between main-pulley and AC (crank-)pulley? > > Because the vibration still exists, even with the AC crank-pulley's > outer ring having fallen off.... OK, now I have a better understanding of the failure. The harmonic balancer has not failed, simply the rubber coupling in the AC drive pulley (sheave). Correct? > One other question still remaining: should the spanish mechanic have > checked this, as a known possible or even likely cause?....either as > in possible/likely in general, or as specific to this engine/year? He should have checked the harmonic balancer rubber and the integrity of the balancer bore/key/crankshaft. At least as a possibilty in general. If the AC had been recently serviced, that might have caused some stress on the pulley rubber if it were overgassed. This could also explain the 2nd failure soon after. > Or: what is the typical life-span of that AC-HB? Let's clarify the terminology here. I don't belive the AC rubber mounted pulley should be termed "AC-HB". The rubber in that component is to absorb shock when AC compressor starts. The harmonic balancer (HB) consists of the centre piece (keyed onto crankshaft, the rubber surrounding that piece and attached to the third part, being the pulley(s). > (assuming perfect other components) Life span indefinate. There has to be something wrong influencing the rubber. Like overgassing. > (and/or: what is the typical lifespan of the main-pully-HB?) Again indefinate, but they do sometimes fail. > Seems the changed HB on the 1HD-FT is an improvement (HB only between > crankshaft and main pulley, AC-HB gone/solid, right?). > Prolly cheaper to, being solid metal....;)) Now that I understand the failure; yes, a solid pullley for AC would be OK. I was assuming you were talking about replacing the whole harmonic balancer assembly with a solid unit. > (one wonders why Toyota hasn't provided the 1HD-T parts-CD with a > superceeded partnumber in this context (just like with the big-end > bearings)....:(( No; unlike the 1HDT big end bearings, the rubber mount in the AC pulley is not a common failure. Cheers Norm Needham Tea Gardens - Oz HDJ79 To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Norm Needham" Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 13:24:27 +1000 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "danamotors" > Ian, how do you check the condition of the HB? I guess you could > look for cracked rubber, but is that about it? What other tests > could you apply to the HB to ascertain it's condition? > > I've seen many HB's over the years that appeared to have some > cracks, but they functioned just fine. > Dana, I'm not Ian, but can answer your question. Actually, I'm absolutely nothing like Ian, a fact for which he should be eternally grateful. ;-) There is 2 types of failure possible: 1. The fit of the balancer to the crank (Ian's problem). The key can wear radially with acceleration and deceleration of the engine.This leads to the bore of the balancer and/or the crankshaft wearing through radial movement, and the fit becoming sloppy. To check this, one needs to lever between the inner part of the balancer and the crankcase, perhaps working in several places around it, and check for looseness or movement in relation to the crankshaft (which wont move, except for a slight fore and aft end float). 2. Disintegration of rubber: To check this, place the lever between the outer part of the balancer and crankcase (or something nearby which is immovable). A good condition balancer may show slight movement with some force on the lever, but any appreciable amount of movement using little force means the rubber is compromised. Cheers Norm Needham Tea Gardens - Oz HDJ79 To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 05:46:18 +0200 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com On 4 May 2004 at 13:11, Norm Needham wrote: > From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" > > > > Just to get things straight: there are 2 rubber/dampening components > > on 1HD-T, one between crankshaft and crankshaft main pulley, and one > > between main-pulley and AC (crank-)pulley? > > > > Because the vibration still exists, even with the AC crank-pulley's > > outer ring having fallen off.... > > > OK, now I have a better understanding of the failure. The harmonic > balancer has not failed, simply the rubber coupling in the AC drive > pulley (sheave). Correct? Yup! Thank you for increasing my vocabulary....:)) > > One other question still remaining: should the spanish mechanic have > > checked this, as a known possible or even likely cause?....either as > > in possible/likely in general, or as specific to this engine/year? > > He should have checked the harmonic balancer rubber and the integrity > of the balancer bore/key/crankshaft. At least as a possibilty in > general. If the AC had been recently serviced, that might have caused > some stress on the pulley rubber if it were overgassed. This could > also explain the 2nd failure soon after. No gas-service for several years (since R12 was first phased out, and then even forbidden to be stored....and without refill, no checks either (since you loose a tiny bit of gas with that each time). Hence back to the most likely cause: HB? > > Or: what is the typical life-span of that AC-HB? > > Let's clarify the terminology here. I don't belive the AC rubber > mounted pulley should be termed "AC-HB". The rubber in that component > is to absorb shock when AC compressor starts. The harmonic balancer > (HB) consists of the centre piece (keyed onto crankshaft, the rubber > surrounding that piece and attached to the third part, being the > pulley(s). Okay....:)) > > (assuming perfect other components) > > Life span indefinate. There has to be something wrong influencing the > rubber. Like overgassing. Nope, no way. > > (and/or: what is the typical lifespan of the main-pully-HB?) > > > Again indefinate, but they do sometimes fail. No known improvements and/or superceeded parts in that department I guess?....;(( > > Seems the changed HB on the 1HD-FT is an improvement (HB only > > between crankshaft and main pulley, AC-HB gone/solid, right?). > > Prolly cheaper to, being solid metal....;)) > > > Now that I understand the failure; yes, a solid pullley for AC would > be OK. I was assuming you were talking about replacing the whole > harmonic balancer assembly with a solid unit. Yep, all correct, now only to solve the problem with the distance between engine and AC-belt.... > > (one wonders why Toyota hasn't provided the 1HD-T parts-CD with a > > superceeded partnumber in this context (just like with the big-end > > bearings)....:(( > > > No; unlike the 1HDT big end bearings, the rubber mount in the AC > pulley is not a common failure. Does tuning/intercooler has any effect on it? And manual vs auto? And/or could the HB also be a cause of the often notorious 'bucking/oscillation' of the engine/drivetrain constellation with 1HD- (F)T's? (on ours it more or less vanished after installation of the intercooler, which led me to believe it was more related to another explanation, pump/engine interference/oscillation) Btw, any way to prove that the HB is sloppy, without dismantling? As in 'if the mechanic hasn't spotted even *that*, he should be kicked in the butt' ?....;)) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 05:52:10 +0200 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com On 4 May 2004 at 13:24, Norm Needham wrote: > From: "danamotors" > > > > > Ian, how do you check the condition of the HB? I guess you could > > look for cracked rubber, but is that about it? What other tests > > could you apply to the HB to ascertain it's condition? > > > > I've seen many HB's over the years that appeared to have some > > cracks, but they functioned just fine. > > > Dana, > I'm not Ian, but can answer your question. Actually, I'm absolutely > nothing like Ian, a fact for which he should be eternally grateful. > ;-) Ian wouldn't look good in a leather skirt and fish stockings you say? -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "danamotors" Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 06:38:40 -0000 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com > Dana, > I'm not Ian, but can answer your question. Actually, I'm absolutely > nothing like Ian, a fact for which he should be eternally grateful. ;-) I'll let Ian answer that one! :-) > There is 2 types of failure possible: > 1. The fit of the balancer to the crank (Ian's problem). > The key can wear radially with acceleration and deceleration of the > engine.This leads to the bore of the balancer and/or the crankshaft > wearing through radial movement, and the fit becoming sloppy. > To check this, one needs to lever between the inner part of the balancer > and the crankcase, perhaps working in several places around it, and > check for looseness or movement in relation to the crankshaft (which > wont move, except for a slight fore and aft end float). > 2. Disintegration of rubber: > To check this, place the lever between the outer part of the balancer > and crankcase (or something nearby which is immovable). A good condition > balancer may show slight movement with some force on the lever, but any > appreciable amount of movement using little force means the rubber is > compromised. > > Cheers > Norm Needham > Tea Gardens - Oz > HDJ79 Sounds reasonable, thanks Norm. My truck has that annoying "pulse" at idle, maybe at higher rpms too, maybe just can't feel it. I would imagine it's not doing any good for the HB. Maybe I need to look a little harder to find the cause and fix it. Dana To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Joaquim Pinto da Costa" Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 12:34:41 +0100 Subject: [80] I also have vibrations between 3100-3200 rpm on 94 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Hi List I'm very interested on this subject since my 94 1HD-T seems to suffer from the similar symptoms. I have also an increased vibration between 3100 and 3200 above or below the engine is quiet. I think I have it since I replaced the Big Ends but I'm not absolutely sure since I don't use that kind of rpm often. I also noticed that the AC seems noisier than last year. Recently I did a compression test that seemed good since it was done cold trough the injectors instead of hot trough the glow plugs. I said "good" because this method gives lower values and the values between cylinders don't differ that much. The results were something like this: Cyl PKg/cm2 1 29.6 2 29.6 3 27.5 4 29.6 5 30.6 6 28.6 Comments? Now I'm concerned, is my crankshaft already damaged? What would be the best approach to try to correct this? Should I "insult" my "dear mechanic" that replaced BE bearings or it's not his fault? It has to be from list advice since mechanics don't know anything about 80s in Portugal. I think my truck is being used as "guinea pig" :-( Joaquim 94 1HD-T Portugal PS-My steering wondering it's diagnosed: negative caster and a quarter of degree difference between wheels. OME caster kit already ordered I'll report the outcome. To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 22:39:56 +0200 Subject: Re: [80] I also have vibrations between 3100-3200 rpm on 94 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com On 4 May 2004 at 12:34, Joaquim Pinto da Costa wrote: > Should I "insult" my "dear mechanic" that replaced BE bearings or it's > not his fault? > > It has to be from list advice since mechanics don't know anything > about 80s in Portugal. > > I think my truck is being used as "guinea pig" :-( The parking lot of this Spanish Toyota dealership, where our HDJ was being repaired, was full of 4x4's, including some 80's, so that particular Cruiser aspect/experience doesn't seem relevant.... OTOH, question for the group....would it be possible that big-end bearings suffer from a bad HB? And/or suffer from the presence of the rubber AC pulley? And that after replacement of the bearings the HB-problem raises its ugly head in a more pronounced way? (and takes out the AC pulley) Btw, possible solution for a solid AC-pulley: what about welding inner and outer ring back together? (requires both balancing & alignment of course, but seems smarter than shifting AC-pump and idler-wheel forward to match the different (&solid) 1HD-FT AC-pulley) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: Norm Needham Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 15:42:19 +1000 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" > > general. If the AC had been recently serviced, that might have caused > > some stress on the pulley rubber if it were overgassed. This could > > also explain the 2nd failure soon after. > > No gas-service for several years (since R12 was first phased out, and > then even forbidden to be stored....and without refill, no checks > either (since you loose a tiny bit of gas with that each time). > > Hence back to the most likely cause: HB? Good possibility; yes. > > > > Life span indefinate. There has to be something wrong influencing the > > rubber. Like overgassing. > > Nope, no way. Sorry, I was just using overgassing as an example. The true culprit might well be the harmonic balancer. Diagnosis via e-mail is nigh impossible. > > > (and/or: what is the typical lifespan of the main-pully-HB?) > > > > > Again indefinate, but they do sometimes fail. > > No known improvements and/or superceeded parts in that department I > guess?....;(( Not that I know of. > > No; unlike the 1HDT big end bearings, the rubber mount in the AC > > pulley is not a common failure. > > Does tuning/intercooler has any effect on it? > And manual vs auto? Doubtful; unless tuning involves radical things like lightening of rotating and reciprocating components (but these are generally done using more critical balancing than mass production methods). > And/or could the HB also be a cause of the often notorious > 'bucking/oscillation' of the engine/drivetrain constellation with 1HD- > (F)T's? Don't think so. Classic symptom of bad balancer is vibration, particularly around 3,000 rev/min where harmonics occur. > Btw, any way to prove that the HB is sloppy, without dismantling? > As in 'if the mechanic hasn't spotted even *that*, he should be > kicked in the butt' ?....;)) Yes; see my mail to Dana. Cheers Norm Needham Tea Gardens - Oz HDJ79 To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: Norm Needham Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 16:22:35 +1000 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" > > > > Yes, all 1H* and 1FZ-FE use a matched pair of drive belts for fan and > > alternator, and a third for a/c. HJ60 uses one for fan & alt, one for > > a/c and the 3rd for power steering pump. The HJ60 fan belt's at least > > a B section belt, compared to less that A section for H*J80. > > Yes, noticed that with closer inspection. > How long will an 1Hx/Fx last on one belt, after the first snapped, > btw? > (or: is that really decent redundancy, or just a limp-home solution?) > -- I don't really know, but logic tells me that the twin belt design is not for redundancy. Witness the multi belt use in other applications where big torque/power is transmitted (like compressors). Multi belts (as do flat ribbed belts) negate much slippage,wear, squealing, etc. A benefit of the Land Cruiser twin belt feature might well be a little redundancy, but in most cases, when one fails, it takes the other with it immediately. Cheers Norm Needham Tea Gardens - Oz HDJ79 To: 80s COOL international <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: Norm Needham Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 16:23:28 +1000 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" > > Dana, > > I'm not Ian, but can answer your question. Actually, I'm absolutely > > nothing like Ian, a fact for which he should be eternally grateful. > > ;-) > > Ian wouldn't look good in a leather skirt and fish stockings you say? > On the contrary; I'm sure the outfit would suit Ian to a tee. It's me who looks ghastly in them (and I never claimed otherwise). ;-) NN To: 80s COOL international <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: Norm Needham Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 16:24:05 +1000 Subject: Re: [80] I also have vibrations between 3100-3200 rpm on 94 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" > OTOH, question for the group....would it be possible that big-end > bearings suffer from a bad HB? > And/or suffer from the presence of the rubber AC pulley? > > And that after replacing of the bearings the HB-problem raises its > ugly head in a more pronounced way? > (and takes out the AC pulley) Joaquim and WJ, There should be no relationship between these two; at least not in terms of one causing or exacerbating the other. > > Btw, possible solution for a solid AC-pulley: what about welding > inner and outer ring back together? > (requires both balancing & alignment of course, but seems smarter > than shifting AC-pump and idler-wheel forward to match the different > (&solid) 1HD-FT AC-pulley) Anything is possible WJ. But one should consider the amount of research done by the manufacturer before making things as they are. Also, LCOOL seems to be developing a mountain from a molehill in regard to harmonic balancer and rubber mounted pulley failures. Now your cynical mind might have a problem with both of the previous paragraphs. ;-) Cheers Norm Needham Tea Gardens - Oz HDJ79 To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Ian B" Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 11:18:01 -0000 Subject: Re: [80] Noise/vibrations @2800-2900rpm / 1HD-T [CHAT] Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool@yahoogroups.com, Norm Needham wrote: > From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" > > > > Dana, > > > I'm not Ian, but can answer your question. Actually, I'm absolutely > > > nothing like Ian, a fact for which he should be eternally grateful. > > > ;-) > > > > Ian wouldn't look good in a leather skirt and fish stockings you say? > > > > On the contrary; I'm sure the outfit would suit Ian to a tee. > It's me who looks ghastly in them (and I never claimed otherwise). ;-) > > NN Nerm, You're making me blush.... ;-) Ian B To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 00:05:29 +0200 Subject: Re: [80] I also have vibrations between 3100-3200 rpm on 94 1HD-T Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com On 5 May 2004 at 16:24, Norm Needham wrote: > > Btw, possible solution for a solid AC-pulley: what about welding > > inner and outer ring back together? (requires both balancing & > > alignment of course, but seems smarter than shifting AC-pump and > > idler-wheel forward to match the different (&solid) 1HD-FT > > AC-pulley) > > > Anything is possible WJ. But one should consider the amount of > research done by the manufacturer before making things as they are. > Also, LCOOL seems to be developing a mountain from a molehill in > regard to harmonic balancer and rubber mounted pulley failures. Now > your cynical mind might have a problem with both of the previous > paragraphs. ;-) If both 2H and 1HD-FT had a rubber pulley for the AC, I wouldn't consider creating a solid one....;)) Btw, the rubberized pulley is balanced; 3 drilled holes on one side. -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Joaquim Pinto da Costa" Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 10:26:03 +0100 Subject: [80] Harmonic Balancer replacement (Was: vibrations between 3100-3200 rpm) Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com What's the Harmonic Balancer designation on the Toyota Engine Repair manual is it camshaft pulley? How urgent is to take care of this subject, the engine vibration only appears between 3100 and 3200 rpm not above or below. What's involved in its replacement and how costly can it be? Does my 80 wants to ruin me? Doesn't it know that we are in a middle of an economical crisis :-) Joaquim 94 1HD-T Portugal To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Ian B" Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 10:22:09 -0000 Subject: [80] Re: Harmonic Balancer replacement (Was: vibrations between 3100-3200 rpm) Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool@yahoogroups.com, "Joaquim Pinto da Costa" wrote: > What's the Harmonic Balancer designation on the Toyota Engine Repair manual > is it camshaft pulley? > > How urgent is to take care of this subject, the engine vibration only > appears between 3100 and 3200 rpm not above or below. > > What's involved in its replacement and how costly can it be? > > Does my 80 wants to ruin me? Doesn't it know that we are in a middle of an > economical crisis :-) > > Joaquim > 94 1HD-T Portugal The harmonic balancer is also referred to in the Toyota literature as the #1 Crankshaft Pulley. If the HB is failing, it should be replaced VERY SOON. Damage to the crankshaft or timing case or radiator can occur otherwise. The HB is held on by one bolt at 5000kg-cm/362ft-lb/490Nm which is VERY tight. Removal of the HB requires a gear puller to get the HB off the crankshaft. Quality costs.... ;-) Ian B 95 HDJ80 near Canberra To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Joaquim Pinto da Costa" Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 13:04:37 +0100 Subject: Re: [80] Re: Harmonic Balancer replacement (Was: vibrations between 3100-3200 rpm) Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Thanks Ian > Quality costs.... ;-) How much can it be? It's just the HB, o-ring and a few hours work or is it a major job and a major bill? Since I am almost sure that this vibration begun only after replacing the BE could I blaim the mechanic (and get a free or a discount) or is he innocent? (if he is innocent is only on this one. I have a love-hate relationship with him ;-) Joaquim 94 1HD-T Portugal To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 14:20:09 +0200 Subject: Re: [80] Re: Harmonic Balancer replacement (Was: vibrations between 3100-3200 rpm) Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com On 6 May 2004 at 10:22, Ian B wrote: > The harmonic balancer is also referred to in the Toyota literature as > the #1 Crankshaft Pulley. > > If the HB is failing, it should be replaced VERY SOON. Damage to the > crankshaft or timing case or radiator can occur otherwise. How come 'radiator'? Can that damn pulley come off too, like the rubber coupled AC- pulley?....;(( > The HB is held on by one bolt at 5000kg-cm/362ft-lb/490Nm which is > VERY tight. Removal of the HB requires a gear puller to get the HB off > the crankshaft. Wasn't there a trick to put a large wrench on, jam it against something solid, and simply start cranking? (Murphy says it will rotate in the wrong direction, while the wrench will slam a hole in your garage wall....;)) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Joaquim Pinto da Costa" Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:26:08 +0100 Subject: [80] Again crankshaft pulley replacement was: Harmonic Balancer Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com This subject is affecting my beauty sleep :-) I think I'm progressing though... 1) Phoned my mechanic asked him what the hell could be causing this vibration between 3100-3200 rpm. He replied that could be several things, probably (quoting and translating) some "fan pulley". I told him that he passed the exam since that was close enough to 80sCool opinion and in fact it's probably the #1crankshaft pulley AKA HB. The rubber deteriorates he said. Has a bonus for getting the quiz right I immediately absolved him from any influence in this matter of his job replacing BE bearings. Asked him if it was a difficult job to replace the dam thing he wasn't sure (mine is the only 80 he sees). 2) Went to Toyota and another pleasant surprise they have five units in stock of 1340817010 AKA crankshaft pulley#1. Order one in the morning get it by afternoon (usually I have to wait for 2 weeks). The price 188.78 euros (minus mine 10% discount) is less than I was expecting. The only doubts remaining are: a) All this was "virtual diagnostic" over email and phone and I'm not sure if I can "teach" my mechanic the famous "Norm Needham 2 Dana" check procedure (for that I had to fully understand it myself. I'll keep trying dough...). What are the probabilities of being completely wrong and going head straight for an unnecessary and maybe even risky job? Are there other things that can cause engine vibration only between 3100-3200 rpm? b) If I should go for it, cause this part of an 80 restoration process anyway. How hard is the labor going to be? In the Engine Repair Manual the disassembly of the HB gets listed under "Removal of timing gears". Quoting the ERM: 1) Remove drive belt, fan and water pump pulley 2) Remove timing belts and pulleys 3) Remove camshaft oil seal 4) Remove oil pipe 5) Remove vacuum pump 6) Remove crankshaft pulley #2 FINALLY remove crankshaft pulley #1 Is this really necessary for HB replacement? If this applies only to timing gears removal what needs to be disassembled in this case? Joaquim 94 1HD-T Portugal In endless restoration process To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "idcruiserman" Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 22:00:18 -0000 Subject: [80] Re: Again crankshaft pulley replacement was: Harmonic Balancer Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool@yahoogroups.com, "Joaquim Pinto da Costa" wrote: > This subject is affecting my beauty sleep :-) > Is this really necessary for HB replacement? If this applies only to timing > gears removal what needs to be disassembled in this case? > > Joaquim > > 94 1HD-T Portugal I would remove the belts and fan, and access the crank pulley from above. Put a piece of wood on the back side of the radiator to protect it. You need to keep the crankshaft from rotating while removing the pulley. I chose to adapt a piece of steel to hold the crank pulley while torquing on the crank bolt. You could always stick something between the flex plate/flywheel and the bellhousing. Eric Return-Path: Delivered-To: wjmarkerink@mail1.a1.nl Received: from localhost (attackkittens.boswellonline.nl [213.171.64.213]) by mail1.a1.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 329D91796224 for ; Wed, 12 May 2004 01:09:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail1.a1.nl ([213.171.64.3]) by localhost (backup [213.171.64.213]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with SMTP id 04393-18 for ; Wed, 12 May 2004 01:09:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mx.boswellonline.nl (unknown [195.140.229.69]) by mail1.a1.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FD841792221 for ; Wed, 12 May 2004 01:09:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.104]) by mx.boswellonline.nl (Postfix) with SMTP id 3F73648021DF for ; Wed, 12 May 2004 01:51:21 +0200 (CEST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2598991-53865-1084316903-w.j.markerink=a1.nl@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.157] by n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 May 2004 23:09:22 -0000 X-Sender: wjmarkerink@pop3.a1.nl X-Apparently-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 19082 invoked from network); 11 May 2004 23:08:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 May 2004 23:08:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cyberwookie.xs4all.nl) (80.126.118.45) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 May 2004 23:08:22 -0000 Received: from pc2 ([192.168.200.111]) by cyberwookie.xs4all.nl with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 12 May 2004 00:09:07 +0200 To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Cc: maarten@all-american.nl, sales@all-american.nl Message-ID: <40A17905.21809.19219FD@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <011a01c43785$6de2ba90$11020180@dsrh.inag> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-description: Mail message body X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 May 2004 22:09:07.0728 (UTC) FILETIME=[9468D900:01C437A4] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 80.126.118.45 From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" X-Yahoo-Profile: wjmarkerink MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list 80scool@yahoogroups.com; contact 80scool-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list 80scool@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 01:08:21 +0200 Subject: Re: [80] Again crankshaft pulley replacement was: Harmonic Balancer Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: Scanned by a pack of attack kittens for Boswell Online B.V. On 11 May 2004 at 19:26, Joaquim Pinto da Costa wrote: > This subject is affecting my beauty sleep :-) > > I think I'm progressing though... > > 1) Phoned my mechanic asked him what the hell could be causing this > vibration between 3100-3200 rpm. He replied that could be several > things, probably (quoting and translating) some "fan pulley". I told > him that he passed the exam since that was close enough to 80sCool > opinion and in fact it's probably the #1crankshaft pulley AKA HB. The > rubber deteriorates he said. Has a bonus for getting the quiz right I > immediately absolved him from any influence in this matter of his job > replacing BE bearings. Asked him if it was a difficult job to replace > the dam thing he wasn't sure (mine is the only 80 he sees). > > > > 2) Went to Toyota and another pleasant surprise they have five units > in stock of 1340817010 AKA crankshaft pulley#1. Order one in the > morning get it by afternoon (usually I have to wait for 2 weeks). The > price 188.78 euros (minus mine 10% discount) is less than I was > expecting. > > > > The only doubts remaining are: > > a) All this was "virtual diagnostic" over email and phone and I'm not > sure if I can "teach" my mechanic the famous "Norm Needham 2 Dana" > check procedure (for that I had to fully understand it myself. I'll > keep trying dough...). What are the probabilities of being completely > wrong and going head straight for an unnecessary and maybe even risky > job? Are there other things that can cause engine vibration only > between 3100-3200 rpm? Preliminary distant/virtual diagnosis by one of Maarten's mechanics (Maarten is on holiday until the end of this week, must speak to him first about an additional problem: I can only get the Spanish Toyota repair reimbursed/compensated when the new repair is also done at a Toyota dealer ship (and AAI is no dealer)): - HB deteriorates (mostly?) because of age....samples seen thusfar were all (most?) '90-92 (mine is '90); hence more than a decade old. - He recalls it more as a typical Mitsubishi Pajero problem (diesel I assume) - Apparently the further failure-mode of the HB itself is not as critical as with big-end bearings....is't mainly a comfort-issue; though he did agree on the front crankshaft bearing getting more additional wear (but I guess that's not what causes the vibration itself....would be unlikely too, otherwise it should vibrate over a far larger rpm-range, right?) CC to AAI. (Mike/George, if you are reading this: the entire discussion thusfar can be found in this file: http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/80_harmonic-balancer.txt ) Willem (still open to suggestions for a solid AC-pulley, to avoid the nasty failure mode of that darn thing) Jan -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Greg Goulden" Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 22:38:34 -0000 Subject: [80] Re: Again crankshaft pulley replacement was: Harmonic Balancer Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool@yahoogroups.com, "Joaquim Pinto da Costa" wrote: >How hard is the labor going to be? In the Engine Repair Manual the > disassembly of the HB gets listed under "Removal of timing gears". >Quoting the ERM: > > 1) Remove drive belt, fan and water pump pulley > > 2) Remove timing belts and pulleys > > 3) Remove camshaft oil seal > > 4) Remove oil pipe > > 5) Remove vacuum pump > > 6) Remove crankshaft pulley #2 > > FINALLY remove crankshaft pulley #1 > > Is this really necessary for HB replacement? If this applies only to timing > gears removal what needs to be disassembled in this case? > > > > Joaquim Joaquim, You don't need to do all those steps, just remove the a/c belt and fan belts. I would also replace the retaining bolt and front crankshaft oil seal while you're doing the job. Also inspect the crankshaft "nose" for damage where the HB fits on, and make sure the mechanic tightens the retaining bolt to the specified torque. This will usually involve making something to bolt onto the HB to prevent it from turning. Good luck, and let us know if it fixes your problem. Regards, Greg Goulden 2000 HDJ105 Melb. To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com, 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com Cc: landcruisers@birfield.com From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 20:08:42 +0200 Subject: [80] Desintegrating AC-pulley/harmonic-balancer HDJ-80 Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Last update/ponderings on the desintegrating AC-pulley (crank-side) & harmonic balancer on my '90 HDJ-80: (previous thread on: http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/80_harmonic-balancer.txt - Maarten @AAI thinks that beyond age, a too tense AC-pulley could also be a potential cause, overheating the rubber coupling, defacto vulcanizing it - I now wonder whether a long period of standing, at the same pulley position (and single-sided tension!), could also affect the rubber itself? - I noticed that the AC-pump-pulley itself also contains a rubber coupling....how likely is that one to fail, on itself and/or along with a failing crank-pulley? And in the same context: how many miles is the idler pulley worth? If I have to change AC-crank-pulley and main-pulley/harmonic- balancer, I might as well do it right and change these other two pulleys as well.... Assuming I *can* change the AC-pump-pulley only, not the entire pump....I *can*, right? Any further typical mileage-estimates in this department? -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Joaquim Pinto da Costa" Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 19:29:02 +0100 Subject: Re: [80] Desintegrating AC-pulley/harmonic-balancer HDJ-80 Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com My 80 is still at the mechanic since Toyota Portugal send me a wrong front crankshaft oil seal. Tomorrow or Wednesday I think I'll have the LC back and maybe some more info. The only thing I can say right now is that indeed my AC pulley is a little bit loose also but I choose not to replace it. And that since my mechanic wasn't so sure that was the HB that was causing the engine vibration (although he agreed that was some pulley) he send the old HB to a machinist that confirmed that it was indeed completely out of balance. So I ordered a new one. It was kind of funny because he was somehow reluctant to accept that was the HB pulley by contrast he's employee (the one that actually makes most of the work) was still very impressed that I knew of the Big End Bearings trough the list. And after earring the noise said something like "Could be this could be that, but if the guys on the net are saying that is the HB then it certainly is" Joaquim 94 1HD-T Portugal From: "Joaquim Pinto da Costa" To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> Cc: Subject: A few words from a grateful crankshaft Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 18:27:22 +0100 I'm a crankshaft of a 1HD-T cruiser controlling my owner hands just to thank you guys for saving my ass twice. About a year ago you just supplied my rookie owner with enough evidence that NO MATTER WERE YOU ARE IN THE WORLD one should replace my big ends especially in vehicles with some mileage. And now, just by chance, you just alerted him that the engine vibration around 3000 rpm was also something to look after ASAP. I just can tank enough you guys, although in the mechanical department guys like Craig Vincent, Dana, Eric, Ian B, Norm Needham and WJ Markerink must be specifically refered. Just to suck up my owner I must also give him some credit for being so anal about me. Now that I just regain control of my hands that last words of the dam crank might just have saved it ;-) Anyway this story isn't finished for me. Some of you might remember that my crank pulley#1 aka harmonic balancer (HB) was trashed causing that vibration around 3000 rpm. First my mechanic just removed the radiator, the fan and the two crank pulleys leaving the timing gear cover on. It was definitely a mistake. When they tried to fit a new HB they felt to much resistance and since I'm the "weird customer" who cares about engine maintenance (usually their average customers just want lifts, snorkels or just a new engine) they felt obliged to remove the timing gear cover (TGC) to see what was going on instead of just bang the HB until it fitted. They had already found that the front semicircle washer was gone, after removing the TGC they found that the inner one was broken in two pieces and that the pump drive shaft gear and crankshaft timing gear were heavily scored, fortunately the crank seems to be OK although it has some scoring. I'm ccing this mail to WJ with the pics of the gears maybe he can put them on his page. WJ can your problem be due to not going all the way and check the gears when you first replaced the HB? Now I'm waiting for the gears since Toyota had none in Portugal. Since I'm becoming a frequent customer and becoming friend of the Toyota clerk he told me that he will ask for the parts with their "vehicle stopped" procedure. According to him it is the fastest method they have for getting the parts. Maybe this time I don't have to wait two weeks. I'm having the impression that this is actually more serious than I initially thought and I'm happy that I managed to spot it before I needed a new crank or engine. So listen to yor engines if there is a vibration increase around 3000 rpm look after it ASAP, as Ian B told me to. Something else I should make them check before refitting the gears and TG cover? Hope to write the conclusion of this "soap opera" when I get the parts Joaquim 94 1HD-T Portugal It's hard to be maintain a Land Cruiser (in Portugal) From: w.j.markerink@a1.nl To: "Joaquim Pinto da Costa" , <80scool@yahoogroups.com> Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 22:53:10 +0200 Subject: Re: [DTLC] A few words from a grateful crankshaft Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net Cc: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com, dtlc@helios.net, maarten@all-american.nl On 28 May 2004 at 18:27, Joaquim Pinto da Costa wrote: > I'm a crankshaft of a 1HD-T cruiser controlling my owner hands just to thank > you guys for saving my ass twice. About a year ago you just supplied my > rookie owner with enough evidence that NO MATTER WERE YOU ARE IN THE WORLD > one should replace my big ends especially in vehicles with some mileage. And > now, just by chance, you just alerted him that the engine vibration around > 3000 rpm was also something to look after ASAP. I just can tank enough you > guys, although in the mechanical department guys like Craig Vincent, Dana, > Eric, Ian B, Norm Needham and WJ Markerink must be specifically refered. > Just to suck up my owner I must also give him some credit for being so anal > about me. > > Now that I just regain control of my hands that last words of the dam crank > might just have saved it ;-) > > Anyway this story isn't finished for me. Some of you might remember that my > crank pulley#1 aka harmonic balancer (HB) was trashed causing that vibration > around 3000 rpm. > > First my mechanic just removed the radiator, the fan and the two crank > pulleys leaving the timing gear cover on. It was definitely a mistake. When > they tried to fit a new HB they felt to much resistance and since I'm the > "weird customer" who cares about engine maintenance (usually their average > customers just want lifts, snorkels or just a new engine) they felt obliged > to remove the timing gear cover (TGC) to see what was going on instead of > just bang the HB until it fitted. They had already found that the front > semicircle washer was gone, after removing the TGC they found that the inner > one was broken in two pieces and that the pump drive shaft gear and > crankshaft timing gear were heavily scored, fortunately the crank seems to > be OK although it has some scoring. > > I'm ccing this mail to WJ with the pics of the gears maybe he can put them > on his page. http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/1HD-T_Harmonic-Balancer+Gears/ (lovely gallery-generator, PhotoFrame, simply upload a simple pre- configured .php file, mess a bit with file/directory properties/permissions, and voila) Complete previous thread, including this part: http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/80_harmonic-balancer.txt > WJ can your problem be due to not going all the way and check > the gears when you first replaced the HB? I have not replaced the HB itself yet, only the secondary/AC-crank pulley (which desintegrated again, due to the (suspected) faulty HB). Btw, can you expand a bit more on the alarming 'they felt too much resistance when mounting the HB'? What caused this resistance in particular? Was the keyway on the crank so damaged too? > Now I'm waiting for the gears since Toyota had none in Portugal. Since I'm > becoming a frequent customer and becoming friend of the Toyota clerk he told > me that he will ask for the parts with their "vehicle stopped" procedure. > According to him it is the fastest method they have for getting the parts. > Maybe this time I don't have to wait two weeks. > > I'm having the impression that this is actually more serious than I > initially thought and I'm happy that I managed to spot it before I needed a > new crank or engine. So listen to yor engines if there is a vibration > increase around 3000 rpm look after it ASAP, as Ian B told me to. > > Something else I should make them check before refitting the gears and TG > cover? > > Hope to write the conclusion of this "soap opera" when I get the parts > > Joaquim > 94 1HD-T Portugal > It's hard to be maintain a Land Cruiser (in Portugal) > -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Ian B" Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 22:45:50 -0000 Subject: [80] Re: A few words from a grateful crankshaft Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool@yahoogroups.com, "Joaquim Pinto da Costa" wrote: > I'm a crankshaft of a 1HD-T cruiser controlling my owner hands just > > > Hope to write the conclusion of this "soap opera" when I get the parts > > Joaquim > 94 1HD-T Portugal > It's hard to be maintain a Land Cruiser (in Portugal) Joaquim, I'm pleased that our concern was justified. I'm saddened that there was more damage than expected. Still, it's much easier to do repairs in comfort of a workshop than beside the road 700km from the nearest mechanic. Ian B 95 HDJ80 near Canberra To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Joaquim Pinto da Costa" Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 14:01:43 +0100 Subject: [80] Re: A few words from a grateful crankshaft Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Hi WJ and Ian > Btw, can you expand a bit more on the alarming 'they felt too much > resistance when mounting the HB'? > What caused this resistance in particular? > Was the keyway on the crank so damaged too? I'm no mechanic so I'll describe the issue as I understand it. Since the gears had too much backlash and that inner semicircle washer was broken in two the fitment of the HB became very difficult. I think they only saw the crank nose after removing the cover, but it was OK. Maybe Ian can explain it better. > in comfort of a workshop than beside the road 700km from the nearest > mechanic. In Portugal you just can't be 700 km away from a mechanic since my country is only about 600x200 km :-) I'm happy to spot the issue before it became a ...finantial... problem ;-) Joaquim 94 1HD-T Portugal Happy even without the 80 after excellent surfing weekend To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Ian B" Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 04:56:46 -0000 Subject: [80] Re: A few words from a grateful crankshaft Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool@yahoogroups.com, "Joaquim Pinto da Costa" wrote: > Hi WJ and Ian > > > Btw, can you expand a bit more on the alarming 'they felt too much > > resistance when mounting the HB'? > > What caused this resistance in particular? > > Was the keyway on the crank so damaged too? > > I'm no mechanic so I'll describe the issue as I understand it. Since the > gears had too much backlash and that inner semicircle washer was broken in > two the fitment of the HB became very difficult. I think they only saw the > crank nose after removing the cover, but it was OK. Maybe Ian can explain it > better. > > > > in comfort of a workshop than beside the road 700km from the nearest > > mechanic. > > In Portugal you just can't be 700 km away from a mechanic since my country > is only about 600x200 km :-) > > I'm happy to spot the issue before it became a ...finantial...problem ;-) Joaquim, I think the half washer you are talking about is what I know as the 'half moon, key'. It is used to locate the HB as it slides onto the crank and stops the HB rotating around the crank. Yes? Ian B To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Joaquim Pinto da Costa" Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 11:23:57 +0100 Subject: Re: [80] Re: A few words from a grateful crankshaft Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com > I think the half washer you are talking about is what I know as the > 'half moon, key'. It is used to locate the HB as it slides onto the > crank and stops the HB rotating around the crank. > Yes? Exactly in Portuguese that would be "escatel" :-) I don't see them referred in the Toy Engine Manual and the reference in the parts bag from Toyota said washer. The way I see it, as the HB became unbalanced it started to break those half-moons keys. The exterior one just disintegrated and disappeared, the inner one was broken in two. After "eating" those half-moons the HB proceeded to the "main dish" the crank and pump gears. According to the mechanic if left alone and assuming that sooner or later the gears would have enough backlash to go out of sync with the crank that would probably meant a new engine. If I'm lucky I'll have the parts Thursday (just a week and one day to get the gears... Wow!!! ;-)). And if still lucky maybe I'll have the 80 by Saturday. If not it will be another week without it. But I think I'm in lucky season otherwise I wouldn't had the fortune of becoming aware of this before it became a real problem :-) Besides checking the thrust clearance of the idler gear and backlash of the timing gear is there anything else that I should ask them to do? Thanks Joaquim 941HD-T Portugal To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: Herb Peyerl Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 17:12:02 +0000 Subject: Re: [80] Re: A few words from a grateful crankshaft Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com On Tue, Jun 01, 2004 at 04:56:46AM -0000, Ian B wrote: > I think the half washer you are talking about is what I know as the > 'half moon, key'. It is used to locate the HB as it slides onto the > crank and stops the HB rotating around the crank. > Yes? Oh, you mean the "Woodruff key"? :-) At least that's what my bearing supplier sells them to me as . --- Real PC Serial console & remote reset - The PC Weasel! http://www.realweasel.com To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Ian B" Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 23:01:26 -0000 Subject: [80] Re: A few words from a grateful crankshaft Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool@yahoogroups.com, Herb Peyerl wrote: > On Tue, Jun 01, 2004 at 04:56:46AM -0000, Ian B wrote: > > I think the half washer you are talking about is what I know as the > > 'half moon, key'. It is used to locate the HB as it slides onto the > > crank and stops the HB rotating around the crank. > > Yes? > > Oh, you mean the "Woodruff key"? :-) > > At least that's what my bearing supplier sells them to me as . Yes, exactly. I should have added the term 'woodruff key' , but I thought it would complicate things....maybe not?. Now, if everyone could standardize their terms with Australia it would make things soooo much simpler. ;-) I can't recall anyone suffering (and reporting) the type and extent of damage that Joaquim appears to have suffered. Normally, the damage is limited to the HB and crank. I think Joaquim has been most unfortunate. Ian B 95 HDJ80 near Canberra To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: Brian and Sandra Monger Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 13:46:01 +1000 Subject: Re: [80] Re: A few words from a grateful crankshaft Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com On Wednesday, June 2, 2004, at 09:01 AM, Ian B wrote: > I can't recall anyone suffering (and reporting) the type and extent of > damage that Joaquim appears to have suffered. Normally, the damage is > limited to the HB and crank. I think Joaquim has been most unfortunate. Rod McLeod's HZJ80 suffered similar but worse damage, I think in the end it required a new crank. the finger of blame was pointed at the supercharger belt over tight though. I have heard about one other instance of similar damage, again worse, on a 1HD-T, where the keys had torn great chunks out of the crankshaft spigot, and he was told that a new crankshaft was required. being a resourceful lad, he pulled the crankshaft and had the keyway recut as a single long channel and a new key made to suit. I don not remember the bloke's name. his truck was Mica Red though, does that help? ;) To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Ian B" Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 04:57:21 -0000 Subject: [80] Re: A few words from a grateful crankshaft Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool@yahoogroups.com, Brian and Sandra Monger wrote: > Rod McLeod's HZJ80 suffered similar but worse damage, I think in the > end it required a new crank. the finger of blame was pointed at the > supercharger belt over tight though. I have heard about one other > instance of similar damage, again worse, on a 1HD-T, where the keys had > torn great chunks out of the crankshaft spigot, and he was told that a > new crankshaft was required. being a resourceful lad, he pulled the > crankshaft and had the keyway recut as a single long channel and a new > key made to suit. I don not remember the bloke's name. his truck was > Mica Red though, does that help? ;) Brian, Recutting the keyway 180 degrees around the crank is an option I was given. So was chroming and refinishing the fret marks my crank had under the HB. I decided (and I believe rightly) that a replacement crank is the best repair option for high reliability. Rod's situation was quite 'unique' and obviously the result of his modifications (sadly). I wouldn't draw any parallels with his engine and another 1Hx engine unless it also had a S/C hanging off it. Ian B To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com, dtlc@helios.net, 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com Cc: maarten@all-american.nl, sales@all-american.nl From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 02:19:28 +0200 Subject: [80] Crankshaft & AC pulley replacement/Harmonic Balancer/vibrations around 2800rpm Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com On 11 May 2004 at 22:38, Greg Goulden wrote: > Joaquim, > > You don't need to do all those steps, just remove the a/c belt and > fan belts. > > I would also replace the retaining bolt and front crankshaft oil seal > while you're doing the job. How critical is replacement of both items? I did read 'new' seal in the manual at the shop, but none came with the new HB, nor a new bolt, so both were reused....if this would be so recommendable, wouldn't Toyota have included it, or at least shown it as the preferred kit in in the parts computer? Need to kick some butt?....;)) > Also inspect the crankshaft "nose" for damage where the HB fits on, > and make sure the mechanic tightens the retaining bolt to the > specified torque. This will usually involve making something to bolt > onto the HB to prevent it from turning. Apparently there is an SST for this job, but if you trashed your AC- crank-pulley, you can weld a bar onto it, and mount it back on with the original 6 bolts (or less if you weld closer to the center). So now I have a custom-made SST....:)) ('either you strike the labor involved in it, or I take it home'....;)) PS: does this bolt-pattern fit all large Cruiser diesels, perhaps even gasolines? (it does not fit the smaller 4-cylinder 1KZ apparently, but perhaps the entire larger series) Some further observations in my case (AC-crank-pulley trashed twice, main crank pulley annex HB being the suspected cause): - very nasty metallic ringing sound at lower rpm's....if you didn't know the sound came from the outside of the engine, you wouldn't have given a cent for it....8-)) - sound was caused by the HB lacking the rubber coupling inbetween *completely* too....bare metal to metal, nicely polished. Timing-gear case and that side of the pulley was polished nicely too. - yet inner and outer pulley ring did a) not separate, b) still drive the alternator (only around that critical 2800rpm the dash would light up (all together)), hence also still drive the waterpump & pulley (yet on the trip back home from Spain the engine did get a little hot once, but it never spit more than 1/2 liter coolant, so that wasn't significant (took an oil sample nonetheless) - the fibers of the trashed AC-belt cling as evidence to the bottom of the hood - the rubber of the trashed AC-belt, rubber of the AC-crank-pulley and rubber from the HB cling as evidence to the top of the rocker panel (though I am not sure if this would be an early sign, but at least a diagnose-tool....:)) - you need an 1" socket for the crank retainer bolt....1/2" would snap.... - without that 1" socket, you need the radiator removed for air- hammer access (Joaquim, was that the only reason why they removed yours, or was that only to get decent access to the timing gears & PS- pump?) PS: anyone ever replaced their power-steering cooler (front of front cross-member) with a stainless-steel unit, either pre-configured or custom-order, bend to spec? (perhaps even adding another loop for additional cooling?) Or even a regular hydraulic cooler? (tucked a bit higher up for mechanical safety) PS2: any preferred coating to stop the oilpan from rusting? I'd like to look at that metal as if it were as thick as the diff/axle housing (as well as mechanical robust), but it isn't of course.... PPS Maarten: could I galvanize the intercooler tube on the front/bottom/left? It's rusting much harder than the one on the other side (forgot whether it is the hot or cold side), but I guess also mostly because the paint (powdercoating?) sticks better too, trapping moisture underneath. Seems to need more protection, hence my galvanizing- consideration.... (it wouldn't be from water trapped inside the tube during standstill, would it?) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 00:40:40 -0000 From: "Matt Pozzi" To: w.j.markerink@a1.nl Subject: PS Cooler Willem, there are two of us here in Brisbane who are doing the PS cooler thing, we obtained a cheap transmission cooler form the surrent model AU Ford falcom and used it. I am going to mount it immediately to the right of my Safari intercooler, and run a god fuel line (Gates Primaflex) back into the system. A mate of mine has done this but located it under his healight behind the LHS indicator, he says the fluid resevoir is cooler, enough that he can put and hold his hand on it now, whereas before he could not. IMHO a very necessary thing to do, fluids should not get so hot they degrade, they tend not to lubricate as they should when they are like this. Hence all the issues. regards, Matt To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Joaquim Pinto da Costa" Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 16:32:32 +0100 Subject: Re: [80] Crankshaft & AC pulley replacement/Harmonic Balancer/vibrations around 2800rpm Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com > How critical is replacement of both items? > I did read 'new' seal in the manual at the shop, but none came with > the new HB, nor a new bolt, so both were reused....if this would be > so recommendable, wouldn't Toyota have included it, or at least shown > it as the preferred kit in in the parts computer? > Need to kick some butt?....;)) I don't know. I just obeyed list instructions :-). Here is the list of all parts and prices for this repair HB pulley bolt 90105-24001 6.33 euros washer HB pulley bolt 90201-27001 5.74 euros O-ring HB 96721-35042 2.24 euros half-moons 95161-30516 1.71 euros HB 13408-17010 169.91 euros crank seal 90311-58007 11.02 euros After removal of timing gears cover: Gear pump drive 13522-17010 34.76 euros Gear crankshaft 13521-17010 31.30 euros O-ring vacuum pump 29342-17010 3.47 euros pump gear seal 90311-58006 9.01 euros camshaft seal 90311-32017 4.99 euros 4 washer oil tube 90430-10035 2.65 euros Total about 280 euros let's wait for the labour bill @25euros+VAT per hour it can be more than this. > Apparently there is an SST for this job, but if you trashed your AC- > crank-pulley, you can weld a bar onto it, and mount it back on with > the original 6 bolts (or less if you weld closer to the center). > So now I have a custom-made SST....:)) My mechanic refered that he also has some tool to do it > - without that 1" socket, you need the radiator removed for air- > hammer access (Joaquim, was that the only reason why they removed > yours, or was that only to get decent access to the timing gears & PS- > pump?) I think that they removed it for two reasons: 1) Space, but notice that the removal of the timing gears wasn't planed at first. 2) I specifically told them that I would rip their head off if they managed to score the dam radiator :-). Regards Joaquim 94 1HD-T Portugal PS-I'm still 80less since the dam mechanic is running a baja. He got a 6th place on the 17th Portalegre Baja 1000 (the most important one in Portugal) The guy for the first time managed to get the Ni$$an Ravara back in one piece. The only 80 running got something like 40 th place. His name "Jose Barroco Pereira" see it here http://www.ralliart.de/en/rallye/berichte.jsp?calid=3D98&pid=3D410 To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Cc: dtlc@helios.net From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 01:16:10 +0200 Subject: HB-pulley bolt/washer/O-ring: replace or not?? (was: [80] Crankshaft & AC pulley replacement/Harmonic Balancer/vibrations aroun Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com On 4 Jun 2004 at 16:32, Joaquim Pinto da Costa wrote: > > How critical is replacement of both items? > > I did read 'new' seal in the manual at the shop, but none came with > > the new HB, nor a new bolt, so both were reused....if this would be > > so recommendable, wouldn't Toyota have included it, or at least shown > > it as the preferred kit in in the parts computer? > > Need to kick some butt?....;)) > > I don't know. I just obeyed list instructions :-). > Here is the list of all parts and prices for this repair > > HB pulley bolt 90105-24001 6.33 euros > washer HB pulley bolt 90201-27001 5.74 euros > O-ring HB 96721-35042 2.24 euros > half-moons 95161-30516 1.71 euros > HB 13408-17010 169.91 euros > crank seal 90311-58007 11.02 euros Still nobody on this list able to give a verdict on whether or not the HB pulley bolt, washer, O-ring and seal should have been replaced too, along with the HB itself? (the metal washer seems the least needed to be replaced (but I didn't read all pages of the repair manual, I only know for sure they mentioned O-ring) (I can't recall having seen those 'half moons' either btw....were these not part of the problem further up in the timing gear set?) > After removal of timing gears cover: > Gear pump drive 13522-17010 34.76 euros > Gear crankshaft 13521-17010 31.30 euros > O-ring vacuum pump 29342-17010 3.47 euros > pump gear seal 90311-58006 9.01 euros > camshaft seal 90311-32017 4.99 euros > 4 washer oil tube 90430-10035 2.65 euros Hmm, not bad, if I see 'gears' I see huge bills appearing, but I guess these gears are pretty simple in geometry & metallurgy.... > Total about 280 euros let's wait for the labour bill @25euros+VAT per hour > it can be more than this. Btw, more philosophical question: should one expect a dealer to have both the pulley-fixation-tool and (its counterpart) a 1" socket for the bolt? My dealer had neither, and they spent nearly an hour creating the first tool, and wasted nearly another hour on radiator-removal(- assessment), before deciding to lend an 1" socket at a neighbouring truck-service (I think that's also where they got a 360Nm torque- wrench....:)) (but at least they didn't loose time over that) Btw, what says the official Toyota labor- requirement/estimating/assessment table for this operation? (can they be held to those estimates at all?) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Joaquim Pinto da Costa" Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 18:52:00 +0100 Subject: [80] Crankshaft damage caused by HB pulley Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Hi As some of you might already know I'm replacing the harmonic balancer aka crankshaft pulley of my 94 1HD-T. The pic of the crank damage is here: http://makeashorterlink.com/?M29012588 Thanks WJ My mechanic says that the damage on the crank won't cause future problems. I'm no so sure about that and I would like to hear other people opinions. What do you guys think. Thanks Joaquim 94 1HD-T Portugal To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com From: "Ian B" Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 22:06:19 -0000 Subject: [80] Re: Crankshaft damage caused by HB pulley Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool@yahoogroups.com, "Joaquim Pinto da Costa" wrote: > Hi > As some of you might already know I'm replacing the harmonic balancer aka > crankshaft pulley of my 94 1HD-T. The pic of the crank damage is here: > http://makeashorterlink.com/?M29012588 > Thanks WJ > > My mechanic says that the damage on the crank won't cause future problems. > I'm no so sure about that and I would like to hear other people opinions. > What do you guys think. > Thanks > Joaquim > 94 1HD-T Portugal Joauim, I would definitely not bolt it back together like that. Diesel engines generate strong axial pulses and your new 'woodruff keys' will not last long. At a minimum, I'd get the crank machined (180 degrees around) and put the keys there, or just get another crank. Ian B To: "'80scool@yahoogroups.com'" <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Anduze, Alejandro SIK" Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 07:56:42 -0400 Subject: RE: [80] Re: Crankshaft damage caused by HB pulley Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com -----Original Message----- From: Ian B [mailto:hzj80@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 6:06 PM > > Joauim, > > I would definitely not bolt it back together like that. > > Diesel engines generate strong axial pulses and your new 'woodruff > keys' will not last long. At a minimum, I'd get the crank machined > (180 degrees around) and put the keys there, or just get another crank. > > Ian B You mean torsional "pulses"or more commonly referred to as vibratory torque. Axial would be back and forth the axis of rotation or more commonly referred to as thrust load. Due to the high cylinder pressures upon combustion, relative to gasoline engines, diesel engines have higher vibratory torque. As far as your crank, it looks rough. I would use it like that if you had to get home or due to $ reasons, but keep in mind that the play between the woodruff key and the crank will most likely cause the Harmonic Balancer to come loose at some point. If you are going to assemble it like that use red locktite between the crank and the harmonic balancer surface and on the bolt that holds it all together. Personally, if it was my motor I would get new keyways machined or a better crank. Good luck. Alex Anduze aanduze@sikorsky.com To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Joaquim Pinto da Costa" Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 17:52:16 +0100 Subject: [80] European Crank/engine sources was:Crankshaft damage caused by HB pulley Reply-To: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Hi Ian, Alex and WJ thanks for your comments, even if they weren't what I would like to ear ;-) Today I had a conversation regarding this with my mechanic in front of the crank with the half-moons in place. Live it doesn't seem as bad as in the picture. What he said makes sense and in the end he'll be responsible for the job and since I don't have much to loose right now I'm going to trust him, only this time :-). Basically he said that the reliability of the repair will be dependent of tightness of the HB which is more or less consistent with what you guys said, if I understood you correctly. As a backup plan I'll start looking for an alternative European source for a reconditioned/new crank and/or engine. I don't have yet the exact price yet for a 1HD-T crank from Toyota Portugal but they told me it should be about 1500 euros or about 2600 Australian dollars. What would be the price in OZ? WJ do you know the price AAI charges for a HD-T crank? Joaquim 94 1HD-T Portugal From: "HZJ80" To: Subject: [DTLC] BEB's after 300k km on a 1HD-FT Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 16:20:04 +1000 Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net All, The report back on my motor was that other than some obvious dirt damage to one BEB, the bearings were all ok, minimal wear and NO erosion as per the early 1HD-T motors. I did find out that the harmonic balancer is twice as big and heavy on the 95+ 1HZ and 1HD motors, though. Ian B 95 HDJ80 Canberra, Oz Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 23:32:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "J. Thomas Bentzen" Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: [DTLC] BEB's after 300k km on a 1HD-FT To: dtlc@helios.net --- HZJ80 wrote: > All, > > The report back on my motor was that other than some obvious dirt damage to > one BEB, the bearings were all ok, minimal wear and NO erosion as per the > early 1HD-T motors. > > I did find out that the harmonic balancer is twice as big and heavy on the > 95+ 1HZ and 1HD motors, though. Ian, Tom Bentzen here. As I understand it my 1HZ is a 1994 model. Any positive aspects to getting that new balancer? And if so where to purchase it? Thanks. TomB Tom Bentzen http://www.fototime.com/inv/F6C5A23C38445DB From: "HZJ80" To: Subject: Re: [DTLC] BEB's after 300k km on a 1HD-FT Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:30:19 +1000 Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net > -----Original Message----- > From: dtlc-owner@helios.net [mailto:dtlc-owner@helios.net] On > Behalf Of J. Thomas Bentzen > Sent: Thursday, 12 May 2005 4:32 PM > > Ian, Tom Bentzen here. As I understand it my 1HZ is a 1994 > model. Any positive aspects to getting that new balancer? > And if so where to purchase it? The newer HB is 5.5kg instead of 2.2kg so I assume it assists in smoothing the engine pulses a little better (something perhaps more required on a 1HD than the naturally smoother 1HZ). It is also designed to provide protection to the timing case if the HB should separate. HOWEVER, the use of the new balancer results in the A/C belt being offset by about another 20mm and requires a different A/C crank pulley (4 bolt instead of 6 and slightly different design) so I'd say unless there are pressing reasons, I'd stay with the style HB that came originally on the motor. Oh, the cost [to me] on the older style was $270 Vs $430 for the newer style. I have the part numbers but they are on my desk at work. Ian B Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 01:45:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "J. Thomas Bentzen" Reply-To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: [DTLC] BEB's after 300k km on a 1HD-FT To: dtlc@helios.net --- HZJ80 wrote: > The newer HB is 5.5kg instead of 2.2kg so I assume it assists in > smoothing > the engine pulses a little better (something perhaps more required on a > 1HD > than the naturally smoother 1HZ). It is also designed to provide > protection > to the timing case if the HB should separate. HOWEVER, the use of the > new > balancer results in the A/C belt being offset by about another 20mm and > requires a different A/C crank pulley (4 bolt instead of 6 and slightly > different design) so I'd say unless there are pressing reasons, I'd stay > with the style HB that came originally on the motor. > > Oh, the cost [to me] on the older style was $270 Vs $430 for the newer > style. I have the part numbers but they are on my desk at work. > > Ian B My rig doesnt have AC anyway. How is the install? I might seriously like to do this if it can help the engines longevity. Thanks. Tom B Tom Bentzen http://www.fototime.com/inv/F6C5A23C38445DB