From: "Darren McRae" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80] broken ring/pinion? Date sent: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:49:28 +1000 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com The fitting of an ARB front locker strengthens the front diff a great deal because the carrier is much stronger and prevents the crownwheel flexing away from the pinion. Strengthening of the housing and replacing the carrier bolts around the housing with the same size as the rear also help. The biggest factor though on top of these front diff fixes that I did to my 80 was to machine a solid spacer to go between the pinion bearings to set the preload. Once fitted it cannot collapse like the collapsible type when hit hard or under high thrust pressure. When machining this spacer, make it a snug fit around the shape of the pinion and keep as much contact area on the bearing surface as possible. 50,000km of abuse with 36" Swampers, front locker, and plenty HP and torque after these mods meant the front end stayed perfect. (I didn't do these mods until after I broke the first c&p) Regards, Darren McRae Drysdale Victoria. (Aus) Ph 0417882588 Fax 03 52 513 549 Email integratedpima@bigpond.com From: "Norm Needham" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80] Pinion bearing pre-load Date sent: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:26:00 +1100 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com From: Brendan & Judy O'Brien > Hi All, > After some advice as to setting pre-load on pinion bearings, maybe Norm > if your out there. My LC has 130K km and I'm fitting air lockers after > Santa paid a visit, so I thought it would be wise to fit new bearings > and seals all round. > My manual says to use a tension wrench ( inch/pound type or metric > equivalent of which I don't own), or could a spring scale with chord > wrapped around flange be used instead and if so what would be the > weight? Any other clues would be appreciated. Brendan, I think I'd better start believing in Santa. ;-) I assume you are aware that pinion bearing replacement means you must also re-set the tooth contact? This is done before the pre-load is set. Bearing pre-load is controlled by a spacer between the two bearings. The OEM configuration uses a collapsible spacer. This spacer is compressed by applying torque progressively (up to 320 ft/lb) on the nut, and checking bearing drag (as you say) with an inch/pound torque wrench or spring balance. Once set, the nut should not be moved/taken off without re-doing the procedure with a new collapsible spacer. This presents a problem in that you must take into account the drag of the new seal when checking. A coating of grease on the bearing lip will reduce this drag to a negligible level. When fitting Air Lockers (and replacing pinion bearings at same time) many shops use a solid spacer (ala older Land Cruisers) to set the distance between, and pre-load on, the pinion bearings. This is a trial and error method, with the spacer being made deliberately too long, and then faced progressively in a lathe until the correct length is attained. Once correct length is attained, the nut and flange can be removed to fit the seal and then refitted. The solid spacer system is considered by most to be superior, and also allows for replacement of leaking pinion seals without fear of over-loading bearings. The OEM system of collapsible spacer is more efficient production wise (done up once only, instead of twice or perhaps more to establish solid spacer length). Solid spacers should be available (perhaps even turned at) your local diff/transmission specialist shop. Oops, I just realised I am rambling, and that I have not yet answered your question. I can't actually! Firstly, I don't have a manual with me, and secondly, a mechanic experienced in setting pinion pre-load does it by feel (like wheel bearings). Does the Toyota manual not describe the use of a spring scale? If so, use this method. If not, borrow an inch/pound wrench. Cheers * Norm Needham * * Traction4 / ARB Northside * Sydney, Australia * Trac4@bigpond.com To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Norm Needham" Date sent: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:04:19 +1100 Send reply to: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [80] Good install price for an Air Locker From: Eric Madsen > At 01:01 PM 2/22/01 -0800, you wrote: > >Hey guys, > > > >What's a good install price on a Front ARB Locker on the 80 series? I got a > >quote from a semi local 4WD shop who wanted $625 for the locker + $175 for > >an "install kit" + $372 for labor "as it would take 6 hours." That quote > >was for me bringing in the 3rd member. Is that a little steep or is that > >normal? Also what's the "install kit" ??? > > I have not done this install, but IMO $372 is highway robbery for installing in > a pulled 3rd member. I would expect closer to $200. The install kit may be > new bearings and a crush sleeve. I would order the parts from AllPro and > go with the spacer instead of a crush sleeve. Are you going to do gears > at the same time? Labor would be the same. Consider calling around to > get a few more quotes. > Eric Seth and Eric, There is some variables when setting up a locker. The basic fitment (without replacing bearings) means the only setting up is for crown wheel to pinion clearance. Time to do the job will be greater if pinion bearings are replaced as this necessitates setting pinion height and tooth contact. Time will be a little longer again if a solid spacer is used. It is necessary to machine these to correct length for each job. As Christo said; just be comfortable with the expertise of whoever does it. There is no "black art" involved, but experience does count. Cheers * Norm Needham * * Traction4 / ARB Northside * Sydney, Australia * Trac4@bigpond.com Trac4@telstra.com To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Mick Barson" Date sent: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:44:35 +0800 Send reply to: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [80] Good install price for an Air Locker ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norm Needham" : Seth and Eric, : There is some variables when setting up a locker. : The basic fitment (without replacing bearings) means the only setting up : is for crown wheel to pinion clearance. : Time to do the job will be greater if pinion bearings are replaced as : this necessitates setting pinion height and tooth contact. Time will be : a little longer again if a solid spacer is used. It is necessary to : machine these to correct length for each job. : As Christo said; just be comfortable with the expertise of whoever does : it. There is no "black art" involved, but experience does count. : : Cheers * : Norm Needham * * : Traction4 / ARB Northside * : Sydney, Australia * : Trac4@bigpond.com : Trac4@telstra.com Gday Norm, Ive just had the lockers installed, I was comfortable :-) basic install, price was excellent and im 100% happy. But would you have recommended the solid spacer as an option? or discussed it with the customer? Nothing was said to me. Cheers Mick [W.Aust] 1HD-FT Auto, ickbar@southwest.com.au http://www.southwest.com.au/~ickbar/4x4.html To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Norm Needham" Date sent: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 23:23:06 +1100 Send reply to: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Subject: [80] Crush sleeve vs solid spacer (was Good install price for an Air Locker) From: Mick Barson > > Gday Norm, > > Ive just had the lockers installed, I was comfortable :-) basic install, > price was excellent and im 100% happy. > But would you have recommended the solid spacer as an option? or discussed > it with the customer? Nothing was said to me. > Bob answered: > Mick, having had two crush sleeves pack it in, it's solid spacers for > me. > Mick exclaimed: > > Bugger live and learn huh?......sounds painful Bob, ......why didn't I know > this ? I know every thing else :-)))))))))))))) > so what's the symptoms? and what causes it? and if it was too happen, what's > the prognosis..? With my right hand raised I swear solemnly: In your case Mick, I think it does not matter. The purpose of the crush sleeve or the solid spacer is to maintain a distance between the 2 pinion bearing cones which will give the bearings the correct pre-load. Older Cruisers used a system similar to solid spacer in that the distance (pre-load) was set with shims; with the pinion having a shoulder on which the shims sat. This was sometimes time consuming in setting up as it involved a bit of trial and error. Someone who did a lot of Cruiser diff rebuilds soon got to the point of mostly trial and no error. Toyota went to a crushable sleeve presumably to save time on assembly line. The crush sleeve is compressed by doing up the pinion nut until the pre-load reaches optimum spec. This can take up to 250 ft/lbs. torque to achieve. The solid spacers are to replace the crush sleeve, but again introduce the trial and error side of the equation. Again, someone with experience will machine and set the length of a solid spacer fairly quickly. Clear thus far? Bob's experience needs qualifying. My guess is that he had a bearing failure after a pinion oil seal replacement. Please tell us Bob. This is the one downfall of the crush sleeve. It SHOULD NOT be reused. But to pull the diff down and replace it is a big job if one is anal enough to do it when doing the simple job of replacing a seal. The seal can be replaced and bearing pre-load maintained if the pinion nut is done up to EXACTLY it's original position. Problem is, most folk (including most mechanics) do it up tight, thus crushing the sleeve a little more and introducing more load on the bearings. The solid spacer obviates this common occurrence. Some might say that a solid spacer will give more "strength" (not a good engineering term) to the pinion, and stop it moving sideways out of mesh with the crown wheel. I say "hogwash". It's the bearings that hold the pinion's position, NOT the sleeve (crushable or solid). Have a look at the schematic in the service manual and you will see what I mean. In theory, one could set up a pinion with NO sleeve, and providing one could be assured that the nut could not move, it would be just as serviceable as with a sleeve. The sleeve of course allows the nut to be done up tight, thus obviating the tendency for it to move. And here is the rub. Even done up tight against a sleeve the nut can, and often does move, especially with on-off throttle driving on uneven ground. This leads to sleeve deterioration and pinion "looseness". The same symptom appears over time with the natural slow wear of the pinion bearings. Pinion bearings generally have a shallow angle to avoid this and also to take the massive thrust generated. Here Mick, you have a distinct advantage with your auto transmission. A lot less shock load on these (pinions/bearings) and all other driveline components. Also, the type of driving you do; touring with camper etc. is much kinder to driveline than the rock climbing and mud bashing that others indulge in. When fitting a locker (any type), the type of driving and configuration of the vehicle should be taken into account with regard to what of sleeve to use. In the majority of fitments, the pinion bearings are not replaced. Therefore the sleeve is not replaced. I guess this is what happened in your case. As for discussing it with the customer...well...if the fitter knows his apples, and he knows his customer, and he knows the vehicles use, then he will know whether or not to suggest fitting solid spacers. I hope I have explained this well enough, although I am sure to have missed something. I'm NOT a great teacher (shuddup Terry;-) Cheers * Norm Needham * * Traction4 / ARB Northside * Sydney, Australia * Trac4@bigpond.com Trac4@telstra.com To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "Reaburn" Date sent: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 13:55:54 +1100 Send reply to: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [80] Crush sleeve vs solid spacer (was Good install price for an Air Locker) ---------- > From: Norm Needham > > I hope I have explained this well enough, although I am sure to have > missed something. I'm NOT a great teacher (shuddup Terry;-) Jeez, not a great teacher!......your being more than modest Norm. Yes, Norm is correct. Not long after I bought my cruiser (2nd hand), the rear diff developed a serious whine after a session in the sand dunes. It turned out that the collapsible spacer had done just that - collapsed! Then a year later, the vehicle developed a bad vibration when decelerating, particularly when coasting down hills. This time the pinion bearings were stuffed and I was told that this was due to the collapsible spacer being overtorqued. So a new mechanic was sourced and solid spacers front and rear were commissioned......no probs. since (Shit, I know better than to say that......I'm off to touch some wood). Bob To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> From: "TJLeeder" Date sent: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:51:07 +1100 Send reply to: 80scool@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [80] Crush sleeve vs solid spacer (was Good install price for an Air Locker) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norm Needham" To: <80scool@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 11:23 PM Subject: [80] Crush sleeve vs solid spacer (was Good install price for an Air Locker) > From: Mick Barson > > > > Gday Norm, > > > > Ive just had the lockers installed, I was comfortable :-) basic > install, > > price was excellent and im 100% happy. > > But would you have recommended the solid spacer as an option? >> or discussed it with the customer? Nothing was said to me. > > > > Bob answered: > > > Mick, having had two crush sleeves pack it in, it's solid spacers for > > me. > > > Mick exclaimed: > > > > Bugger live and learn huh?......sounds painful Bob, ......why didn't > > I know this ? I know every thing else :-)))))))))))))) > > so what's the symptoms? and what causes it? and if it was too happen, > > what's the prognosis..? > > > Norm so expertly replied, just like a teacher would: > With my right hand raised I swear solemnly: In your case Mick, I think > it does not matter. > The purpose of the crush sleeve or the solid spacer is to maintain a > distance between the 2 pinion bearing cones which will give the bearings > the correct pre-load. > Older Cruisers used a system similar to solid spacer in that the > distance (pre-load) was set with shims; with the pinion having a > shoulder on which the shims sat. This was sometimes time consuming in > setting up as it involved a bit of trial and error. Someone who did a > lot of Cruiser diff rebuilds soon got to the point of mostly trial and > no error. > Toyota went to a crushable sleeve presumably to save time on assembly > line. The crush sleeve is compressed by doing up the pinion nut until > the pre-load reaches optimum spec. This can take up to 250 ft/lbs. > torque to achieve. > The solid spacers are to replace the crush sleeve, but again introduce > the trial and error side of the equation. Again, someone with experience > will machine and set the length of a solid spacer fairly quickly. > Clear thus far? > Bob's experience needs qualifying. My guess is that he had a bearing > failure after a pinion oil seal replacement. Please tell us Bob. Terry's (Alias TJL) postulation: Yes I feel that perhaps Bob needs to be more specific here. Perhaps a bearing failure due to a mechanic over tightening the pinion nut because he felt that it required a little extra preload on the pinion bearings after seal replacement? One will never know? Folks, Please remember that mechanics are mere mortals and sometime do make mistakes. > This is the one downfall of the crush sleeve. It SHOULD NOT be reused. > But to pull the diff down and replace it is a big job if one is anal > enough to do it when doing the simple job of replacing a seal. The seal > can be replaced and bearing pre-load maintained if the pinion nut is > done up to EXACTLY it's original position. Problem is, most folk > (including most mechanics) do it up tight, thus crushing the sleeve a > little more and introducing more load on the bearings. > The solid spacer obviates this common occurrence. > Some might say that a solid spacer will give more "strength" (not a good > engineering term) to the pinion, and stop it moving sideways out of mesh > with the crown wheel. I say "hogwash". It's the bearings that hold the > pinion's position, NOT the sleeve (crushable or solid). Again an interuption: Yes Norm is absolutely correct here (as if we didn't know) and a diff could run without the sleeve whether crushable or solid. This sleeve thing crushable or solid will only give the assembler a slow take up of the bearings to get the correct bearing preload. It has no bearing on the correct alignment once the pinion is setup correctly. > Have a look at > the schematic in the service manual and you will see what I mean. > In theory, one could set up a pinion with NO sleeve, and providing one > could be assured that the nut could not move, it would be just as > serviceable as with a sleeve. The sleeve of course allows the nut to be > done up tight, thus obviating the tendency for it to move. > And here is the rub. Even done up tight against a sleeve the nut can, > and often does move, especially with on-off throttle driving on uneven > ground. This leads to sleeve deterioration and pinion "looseness". The > same symptom appears over time with the natural slow wear of the pinion > bearings. Pinion bearings generally have a shallow angle to avoid this > and also to take the massive thrust generated. > Here Mick, you have a distinct advantage with your auto transmission. A > lot less shock load on these (pinions/bearings) and all other driveline > components. Also, the type of driving you do; touring with camper etc. > is much kinder to driveline than the rock climbing and mud bashing that > others indulge in. > When fitting a locker (any type), the type of driving and configuration > of the vehicle should be taken into account with regard to what of > sleeve to use. > In the majority of fitments, the pinion bearings are not replaced. > Therefore the sleeve is not replaced. I guess this is what happened in > your case. > As for discussing it with the customer...well...if the fitter knows his > apples, and he knows his customer, and he knows the vehicles use, then > he will know whether or not to suggest fitting solid spacers. > I hope I have explained this well enough, although I am sure to have > missed something. I'm NOT a great teacher (shuddup Terry;-) > > Cheers * > Norm Needham * * > Traction4 / ARB Northside * > Sydney, Australia * > Trac4@bigpond.com > Trac4@telstra.com > Hmm, Norm now that your ... well er, retired. Perhaps you may wish to put up with our little darlings... I mean Apprentices and teach them a thing or two? The pay is pretty darn good mate! lots of holidays as well, but I am best not to talk about that, OK? TJL Syd OZ 97 TD with a few gadgets BTW congratulations on a good solid reply, I know your well suited for the job Mate ;-)) To: <80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com> From: "colin dedourek" Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:40:37 +1000 Subject: [80_aus] DX front diff failure. Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com Hi guys, I have had a front diff failure over the weekend. I was reversing up an embankment when the rear wheel dropped into a hole in the track, the front opposite corner then came off the ground then came back down while still spinning backwards. All I heard was a bang and some whirring. When It broke I pressed in the clutch, rolled back to the bottom and tried to drive forward. No go, all locked solid. I had to unlock the hubs and drive home in 2WD (from Wonangatta valley to Albury). Has anyone experience this before or have any ideas of what will have broken? cheers, Colin 97' DX with busted bits. To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: All American Imports Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:11:29 +0200 Subject: RE: [80_aus] DX front diff failure. Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com, "colin dedourek" wrote: > Hi guys, > > I have had a front diff failure over the weekend. I was reversing > up an embankment when the rear wheel dropped into a hole in the > track, the front opposite corner then came off the ground then came > back down while still spinning backwards. All I heard was a bang > and some whirring. > > When It broke I pressed in the clutch, rolled back to the bottom > and tried to drive forward. No go, all locked solid. I had to > unlock the hubs and drive home in 2WD (from Wonangatta valley to > Albury). > > Has anyone experience this before or have any ideas of what will > have broken? > > cheers, > > Colin > > 97' DX with busted bits. Sorry to hear Colin but it sounds like you broke some teeth of the ringgear and pinion. This happens more, we had 3 last week. Here, with our few off-road possibillities, it mostly happen when people help others that are stuck by pulling backwards. The teeth on the ringgear are reversecut machined and not designed to cope with that load. Also the frontdiff is smaller than the rear one. For an expirienced mecanic the job is not too difficult and when it was mine I should go for a new R&P kit instead of a used one from the wreckingyard. Count on a set of bearings as well. Best regards, Maarten Verschure To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com From: "Darren Corr" Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:24:34 -0000 Subject: [80_aus] Re: DX front diff failure. Reply-To: 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com --- In 80scool_aus@yahoogroups.com, "colin dedourek" wrote: > Hi guys, > > I have had a front diff failure over the weekend. I was reversing > up an embankment when the rear wheel dropped into a hole in the > track, the front opposite corner then came off the ground then came > back down while still spinning backwards. All I heard was a bang > and some whirring. > > When It broke I pressed in the clutch, rolled back to the bottom > and tried to drive forward. No go, all locked solid. I had to > unlock the hubs and drive home in 2WD (from Wonangatta valley to > Albury). > > Has anyone experience this before or have any ideas of what will > have broken? > > cheers, > > Colin > > 97' DX with busted bits. Hey Colin, I broke mine a little while back, I asked some questions on this site about how to prevent it happening again, I got some good answers. Dazza Mc suggested that there were a few mods that were needed to make the front diff stronger and more capable of handling such abuse, whether deliberate or not. The mods are, 1. Drill out the studs that hold the centre in and re-tap them to take 10mm studs. 2. When packing CV's, use a full tube of grease in each CV. 3. The fitment of a locker supports the crown wheel better than the factory set up. I have done two of these so far, I drilled out the housing and put 10mm studs in and I pack the CV's with a tube of grease every time. (I used to do this anyway). I am almost ready to buy my front locker of which I will fit myself when it arrives. I have given the front diff some abuse since the last time I broke it and it has held up pretty well. Hopefully when the locker is installed I won't have to abuse it so much. Although in saying that, it isn't good practice to use a front locker when reversing due to the way the crownwheels are cut. HTH Corry 93GXLDSL 40Shorty