Date sent: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:34:41 -0700 (MST) From: Eric Madsen To: "'80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com'" <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80] Transmission "clunk" revisited Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Hunt, Steve wrote: > There has been an ongoing thread concerning the transmission "clunk" > which I basically ignored. While my 94 FZJ (102 Kmiles) has exhibited > this symptom for quite some time, it recently has become more pronounced > and seems like it is time to investigate further. > > Has some process or treatment been found by the list intelligence to > address this? I do not drive the vehicle often (my daily driver is my > FJ40) so I do not know how much worse it has become at this point. > > Cheers, > > Steve Hunt > 1994 FZJ80, 1981 FJ40, TLCA# 7202, FLCA# 019 > Crystal Beach, Florida, USA > steve.hunt@reflectone.com Brad Musil indicated to me that re-shimming the center diff takes up much of the slack (new thrust washers). Eric o--------------------------------------------------------------------o * Eric Madsen | 9049 East Karen Drive, Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 USA * * mailto:eric@pnc.com | H:480-657-7576 | ICQ: 17077201 | TLCA # 3728 * * 61 fj25 [FOR SALE] | 86 fj60 2.5" MAF | 93 fzj80 OME/Lockright * o--------------------------------------------------------------------o From: bmusil@ibm.net Date sent: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:57:37 -0700 To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Subject: Re: [80] Transmission "clunk" revisited Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Eric Madsen wrote: > Brad Musil indicated to me that re-shimming the center diff takes up much of > the slack (new thrust washers). > > Eric Having just gone through this "clunking" with two 80 series in my shop, here are my observations. First, Eric is correct about the re-shimming of the center differential removing a 'portion' of the drive line wind-up. What I discovered later, and am now informing the list of is the following... An additional 'source' of drive line wrap are the drive plates (internal splined plates) that slide over the outer end of the birfields. Fortunately, Toyota, in designing these plates, heat treated them to a slightly lesser hardness than the splines on the birfields, which results in the majority of the wear occurring to the plates as opposed to the birfields. Now that's good because the plates are only $30 each verses almost $400 each for the birfields. Another fortunate thing is that the wear can be retarded by simply greasing the interface of the birfield and the plates... however, the wear cannot ever be eliminated, just slowed down somewhat. And, because the drive system incorporates three sets of differentials and their associated 'spider' gears there is always going to be some drive line wrap-up that cannot ever be totally eliminated... just reduced by re-shimming the spider gears and in the case of the center diff the side gears which turn the drive shafts. The way to "check" the primary source of the wrap-up is to do the following. Engine running, FOOT FIRMLY ON THE BRAKE PEDAL... move the gear selector lever from reverse to drive and back to reverse while noting the amount of drive line wrap-up. Next, shift the transfer case into low range, which will automatically lock the center differential, thus eliminating one set of spider gears, and repeat the shifting sequence again... noting the decrease in the drive line wrap-up. What ever motion has been eliminated can be attributed to the 'slop' in the center differential mechanism. Finally, get under the vehicle (engine off, tranny in park) grab the front differential flange and rotate in to and fro while noting the slack present at the drive plates.(you did take the dust cups off didn't you? & enlist the help of a friend, right? & put the transfer case back into high range?) Having checked all this out, I'm sure you will find that the majority of the play is in the front drive plates. And while changing the drive plates will remove "most" of the problem it will not eliminate it. It should be noted that the splines on the birfields do wear also, so just replacing the plates will not make the interface perfect... just better. The bottom line is... monitor the wear at the plates, change them every so often, and the birfileds will last just that much longer before having to be replaced also.. As this is a wide spead problem, I am going to produce a handy tool/adapter that will grease the birfield and the inner spindle bushing without requiring complete disassembly. Will let everyone know when I've got a bunch made. Right now I have only one that I made for use in my shop... but I can really see a need for something like this for every 80 series owner, or at least the "club" tool box. Mybest, Brad Musil (aka Bam Bam) Date sent: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:28:45 -0700 (MST) From: Eric Madsen To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Subject: Re: [80] Transmission "clunk" revisited Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com [snip] > As this is a wide spead problem, I am going to produce a handy tool/adapter > that will grease the birfield and the inner spindle bushing without requiring > complete disassembly. Will let everyone know when I've got a bunch made. > Right now I have only one that I made for use in my shop... but I can really > see a need for something like this for every 80 series owner, or at least the > "club" tool box. > > Mybest, > Brad Musil (aka Bam Bam) Why not just clean out the birfield and pack grease in with a putty knife (NN's tip)? Seemed to work fine for me. I think the birfield splines will be fine if you keep them greased. Eric From: bmusil@ibm.net Date sent: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:09:29 -0700 To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Subject: Re: [80] Transmission "clunk" revisited Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com > > Why not just clean out the birfield and pack grease in with a putty knife > (NN's tip)? Seemed to work fine for me. I think the birfield splines will be > fine if you keep them greased. > > Eric Eric, The tool I'm using is not a substitute for a complete tear down and re-packing of the birfields. I'm finding that a complete front axle overhaul (which includes the replacement of the inner axle seals, all wiper seals, upper & lower trunion bearings, spindle bushings, wheel seals, wheel bearing re-pack, birfield dis-assembly for cleaning and inspection, reassemble and re-packing with synthetic grease, and the replacement of all paper gaskets) should be done every 60K to 90K miles depending on the severity of usage. (BTW, I only charge $550 labor plus parts) The 'tool' is primarily for the routine re-greasing of the spindle bushing (which cannot be reached without the removal of the spindle) between major overhauls. And, as you know from my lectures, it is the spindle bushing wear that is at the source of most all front axle problems. Using my little 'tool' forces grease into the bushing without removing the spindle and thus decreasing the wear at this very critical interface. My 'tool' will not direct grease into the birfield at all. HTH Brad Musil (aka Bam Bam) Eric Madsen wrote: From: bmusil@ibm.net Date sent: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 08:26:02 -0700 To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Subject: Re: [80] Transmission "clunk" revisited Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Roger Loving wrote: > Brad, this milage/service recommendation to be on the frequent side to me. > What kind of usage are you thinking of? Offroad or highway?....Sand vs > hardpan?...What about the highway machines? > Roger L I realize that my recommendation is a wee bit on the conservative side Roger; however, as I've just started to see, waiting longer has dire consequences (read increased repair costs). My recommendation for frequent off highway use would be the lower (60k miles) number, using common sense and periodic checks as the miles/kilos increase from that point. By monitoring I mean, checking the consistency of the differential fluid at each service interval (looking for any signs of contamination, ie: water or grease) and checking around the wiper seals for signs of differential fluid leaking past the inner axle seal. Also look for liquid in the hubs when doing wheel bearing re-packs and or drive plate greasing. It's all really just using common sense once you've been alerted to a potential problem area. Who knows Roger, maybe an 80 that used as a "mall-cruiser" could go beyond 120K... I'm not saying the numbers I threw out are absolute values... just numbers that reflect my experience and a desire to help my customers avoid a considerably larger 'repair' bill in lieu of 'routine preventative maintenance'. As always... YMMV... HTH Brad Musil (aka Bam Bam) From: bmusil@ibm.net Date sent: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:43:41 -0700 To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Subject: Re: [80] Driveline clunk Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Mark A. Padgett wrote: > Is driveline 'clunk' normal for an FJ80, and if so, how can I minimize > it? The truck is perfect otherwise, with 135K miles though I'm worried > about the driveline integrity. Mark, this is a re-post of something I sent to the list earlier... apparently you didn't see it. I hope this enlightens you. If you have further questions just email me off line so we don't bore everyone on the list. I'll be happy to take the time necessary to explain this in more detail if you require. Here is the old post... Having just gone through this "clunking" with two 80 series in my shop, here are my observations. First, Eric is correct about the re-shimming of the center differential removing a 'portion' of the drive line wind-up. What I discovered later, and am now informing the list of is the following... An additional 'source' of drive line wrap are the drive plates (internal splined plates) that slide over the outer end of the birfields. Fortunately, Toyota, in designing these plates, heat treated them to a slightly lesser hardness than the splines on the birfields, which results in the majority of the wear occurring to the plates as opposed to the birfields. Now that's good because the plates are only $30 each verses almost $400 each for the birfields. Another fortunate thing is that the wear can be retarded by simply greasing the interface of the birfield and the plates... however, the wear cannot ever be eliminated, just slowed down somewhat. And, because the drive system incorporates three sets of differentials and their associated 'spider' gears there is always going to be some drive line wrap-up that cannot ever be totally eliminated... just reduced by re-shimming the spider gears and in the case of the center diff the side gears which turn the drive shafts. The way to "check" the primary source of the wrap-up is to do the following. Engine running, FOOT FIRMLY ON THE BRAKE PEDAL... move the gear selector lever from reverse to drive and back to reverse while noting the amount of drive line wrap-up. Next, shift the transfer case into low range, which will automatically lock the center differential, thus eliminating one set of spider gears, and repeat the shifting sequence again... noting the decrease in the drive line wrap-up. What ever motion has been eliminated can be attributed to the 'slop' in the center differential mechanism. Finally, get under the vehicle (engine off, tranny in park) grab the front differential flange and rotate in to and fro while noting the slack present at the drive plates.(you did take the dust cups off didn't you? & enlist the help of a friend, right? & put the transfer case back into high range?) Having checked all this out, I'm sure you will find that the majority of the play is in the front drive plates. And while changing the drive plates will remove "most" of the problem it will not eliminate it. It should be noted that the splines on the birfields do wear also, so just replacing the plates will not make the interface perfect... just better. The bottom line is... monitor the wear at the plates, change them every so often, and the birfileds will last just that much longer before having to be replaced also.. As this is a wide spead problem, I am going to produce a handy tool/adapter that will grease the birfield and the inner spindle bushing without requiring complete disassembly. Will let everyone know when I've got a bunch made. Right now I have only one that I made for use in my shop... but I can really see a need for something like this for every 80 series owner, or at least the "club" tool box. Mybest, Brad Musil (aka Bam Bam) From: "Ethan" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: [80] 3FE swap to 1FZ-FE Date sent: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:56:41 -0800 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Has anyone tried swaping a 1FZ-FE into a 91-92 80 series? Will the engine mount up to the 91-92 transmission? I'm sure most everyone here is familiar with the transmission or transfercase clunk found in high millage 80s when putting it into gear. What I need to know is if it's coming from the transmission or transfercase. I would like to get this problem fixed before moving on to my engine swap. When I take it to get fixed how many hours should I expect on the estimate Anyone live in the Ventura/north LA area? I just moved here and am looking for people to go on runs with. Ethan Date sent: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 05:41:53 -0500 To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com From: "Lee W. Fry" Subject: Re: [80] 3FE swap to 1FZ-FE Copies to: eblasius@earthlink.net Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com At 08:56 PM 12/8/99 -0800, Ethan wrote: >Has anyone tried swaping a 1FZ-FE into a 91-92 80 series? Will the engine >mount up to the 91-92 transmission? > >I'm sure most everyone here is familiar with the transmission or >transfercase clunk found in high millage 80s when putting it into gear. >What I need to know is if it's coming from the transmission or transfercase. I >would like to get this problem fixed before moving on to my engine swap. When I >take it to get fixed how many hours should I expect on the estimate I had a clunk in my 170K mile FJ-62 440F transfer case that was caused by the preload on the transmission output shaft having been lost. The nut on the end of the shaft at the rear of the transfer case (the one under the sheet metal cover with 6 bolts) was loose. It hadn't turned, because it was still staked into the slot on the shaft. Something must have worn somewhere. This was accompanied by ATF leaking from the transmission into the transfer case causing it to be over full and to leak from the rear output shaft seal. The leak probably occurrred because ATF could work through around the face of the transfer input gear and through the grooves on the shaft because it was not held tightly agasinst the o-ring that seals it on the transmission output shaft. I thought the problem was the outer seal on the transmission output shaft so I disassembled the whole transfer to get to the seal and replace it. The clunk and the leak probably could have been fixed in a few minutes by removing the cover and tightening the nut to the specified 94 ft-lb. The dealership estimated $400 to replace the seal. I spent $80 an parts (nuts, o-rings, gaskets, and thrust washers) and about 10 hours under the truck. If I had access to a good bearing source (not at the inflated price they are after they have moved through the factory parts chain), I would have replaced the input and output shaft bearings too since it was apart. Anyway, the summary of this story is: check the nut on the end of the transmission output shaft. Its easy to do. Lee Fry lfry@mindspring.com '89 FJ62 - The "Buffalo Wagon" '95 FZJ80 - "?" From: 500 UPPL Rúnar Sigurjónsson To: "'80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com'" <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: RE: [80] 3FE swap to 1FZ-FE Date sent: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:29:42 -0000 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan [mailto:eblasius@earthlink.net] > > Has anyone tried swaping a 1FZ-FE into a 91-92 80 series? =20 > Will the engine > mount up to the 91-92 transmission? >=20 > I'm sure most everyone here is familiar with the transmission or > transfercase clunk found in high millage 80s when putting it=20 > into gear. > What I need to know is if it's coming from the transmission=20 > or transfercase. > I would like to get this problem fixed before moving on to my=20 > engine swap. > When I take it to get fixed how many hours should I expect on=20 > the estimate >=20 > Anyone live in the Ventura/north LA area? I just moved here=20 > and am looking > for people to go on runs with. >=20 > Ethan The clunk is a feature, not a problem. You'll probably need to swap out the whole drivetrain to get rid of it, = it's a combination of slack from the axles, driveshafts, transfer and = gearbox that generates this trusty clunk. It's a big drivetrain... Cheers Runsi. From: 500 UPPL Rúnar Sigurjónsson To: "'80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com'" <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: RE: [80] Clunks, Norm. Date sent: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 15:12:28 -0000 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Well, in the gearbox you have x gears that can generate a clunk, just = like in any auto box. In the transfer, the power is moved across (at least) two gearpairs = that can generate clunk. This is more than in most modern transfers, due to the offset setup of the LC transfer (actually a very nice setup). In the Transfer you also have the center diffrentinal that adds one = gearpair to the equation. =20 In the driveshafts you have the universal joints that might add = slightly to the equation. =20 In the axles you also have one gearpair that adds to the clunk. Then at all places you have buncha splines that may wear up slightly, = and with the full floater, you get a xtra pair of those. I'm no expert on this. Guess Norm should come in here with some big knowledge from his little .... =20 Has anybody ever managed to get rid of the clunk? The crawler box in our truck increased the drivetrain slack a lot, = thanks god its a manual tho... Cheers Runsi. From: "Norm Needham" To: "80sCOOL" <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80] 3FE swap to 1FZ-FE Date sent: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 18:18:27 +1100 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Runsi wrote: >The clunk is a feature, not a problem. You'll probably need to swap out the whole drivetrain to get rid of it, it's a combination of slack from the axles, driveshafts, transfer and gearbox that generates this trusty clunk. >It's a big drivetrain... Runsi also wrote: I'm no expert on this. Guess Norm should come in here with some big >knowledge from his little .... > From: Anduze, Alejandro [mailto:AAnduze@sikorsky.com] > No no no that's not what I want to hear, I like the nut > solution better. > Yes, I have the Klunk in my '94 US FJ80 with 122k miles. Is there one > component that is the most guilty? I tend to think that alot OK Runsi, We have (well..had) a politician down under who was famous for never finishing a sentence (the Queenslanders will know who I mean). So; what follows...."from his little..."? ;-) You are basically right; it's a big drive-train. There is heaps more gears with a transfer case and an extra two diffs, over a conventional car. All the clearances, especially with a little normal wear, add up to the clunk being a feature. Brad has mentioned that one of the main points producing clunk is the front drive plate splines. Unfortunately, another "feature" is the propensity for these splines to wear rapidly if not lubricated. And unfortunately for Alejandro, the loose nut is not a solution. The loosening nut mentioned was in a 60 series, and not uncommon. 80 series is a different construction, and this just doesn't happen. Cheers * Norm Needham * * Traction4 / ARB Northside * Sydney, Australia * Trac4@bigpond.com From: bmusil@attglobal.net Date sent: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 13:01:55 -0700 To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Subject: [80] "Clunk" was Re: [80] 3FE swap to 1FZ-FE Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com 500 UPPL Rúnar Sigurjónsson wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ethan [mailto:eblasius@earthlink.net] > > > > Has anyone tried swaping a 1FZ-FE into a 91-92 80 series? > > Will the engine > > mount up to the 91-92 transmission? > > > > I'm sure most everyone here is familiar with the transmission or > > transfercase clunk found in high millage 80s when putting it > > into gear. > > What I need to know is if it's coming from the transmission > > or transfercase. > > I would like to get this problem fixed before moving on to my > > engine swap. > > When I take it to get fixed how many hours should I expect on > > the estimate > > > > Anyone live in the Ventura/north LA area? I just moved here > > and am looking > > for people to go on runs with. > > > > Ethan > > The clunk is a feature, not a problem. > > You'll probably need to swap out the whole drivetrain to get rid of > it, it's a combination of slack from the axles, driveshafts, transfer > and gearbox that generates this trusty clunk. > > It's a big drivetrain... > > Cheers > Runsi. Say guys, I have responded to this clunk thing about 4 times now... here it is one more time. The transfer case contains a differential which, like most diffs, has spider gears that mess with side gears. The difference is the side gears aren't connected to the left and right axles but the front and rear drive shafts. There is inherently quite a bit of slack in this type of gear set. Some of that slack can be shimmed out as Toyota makes select fit shims for that assembly. However, and more significantly, the majority of the "Clunking" sound comes from clearance or 'slop' in the outer drive plate to stub axle (outer birfield) interface. The torque required to turn the front wheels is transmitted from the stub axle through splines broached into the drive plates that are bolted to the hubs by those damn studs and 'cone washers' that everybody seems to have problems removing. What happens is over time the pressure extrudes the splines and 'slop' or clearance develops. Then when you shift from forward to reverse the shaft has an opportunity to rotate a few degrees before making contact with the pressure face of the opposite spline. That rotational clearance allows the components to accelerate until the clearance is taken up and that is what produces the hard "Clunking" noise. It is worth noting that this complaint must have fallen on Toyota's ears as they made a design change to the drive plate in 1995 to increase the length of the spline engagement, which results in a lessening of the per unit load. This should improve the wear rate of these components. If you are experiencing the dreaded "clunk"... change the drive plates on the front axles... this will eliminate about half of the 'windup'. It is worth noting that Toyota hardened the axle shafts to a greater extent than the drive plates, therefor the drive plates wear at a more rapid rate than the axles, which is very good because the stub axles are tougher to change and a great deal more expensive. Also, it is worth noting, the apply pressure for reverse is about two or three times greater than the pressure in the forward gears... this also contributes to the perception of something being wrong when all is just normal. Not saying that other components such as ujoints, driveshaft splines, and differentials are not involved or contributory in some manner... just my experience has been the front drive plates are the MAIN culprit and the easiest and least expensive component to change that results in the MOST significant reduction of the dreaded "CLUNK". Happy motoring... Brad Musil (aka Bam Bam) Pres AzLCA From: "Norm Needham" To: "80sCOOL" <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80] "Clunk" was Re: [80] 3FE swap to 1FZ-FE Date sent: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 18:18:58 +1100 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com From: snip > Also, it is worth > noting, the apply pressure for reverse is about two or three times > greater than the pressure in the forward gears... this also contributes > to the perception of something being wrong when all is just normal. Brad, I'm confused......actually, some might say that "confused" is my middle name. ;-) What does the above statement mean? Cheers * Norm Needham * * Traction4 / ARB Northside * Sydney, Australia * Trac4@bigpond.com