Date sent: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 19:10:30 -0700 From: BAM To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Subject: Re: [80] Steering wonder Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Robert Palarchio wrote: > Hey GC or Norm, or any knowledgeable brethen, my 93FZJ80 OME'd, 305x70-16" > Goodyear Wrangler MT's, upon applying brakes hard will sometimes pull hard to > left or right. It also seems that my steering is wibbly. Is there some kind > of castor correction kit needed after installing OME lift? TIA, Rob. Robert, who did the OME installation for you??? As an authorized OME installer I would not have let you remove the vehicle from my shop without the caster correction having been installed. I know there are those who say that their vehicle drives ok without the correction bushings, but I've driven them both ways and just don't feel it's worth taking the chance on having an ill handeling/unsafe vehicle. If you did the install yourself, then by all means, buy the caster correction kit, and have someone who knows what they are doing install it!! I say have someone do it for you because you'll need a shop press of at least 12 ton capacity to remove the bushings from the leading control arms, and I've made special press tooling to make the process safer and more accurate. If you have access to such tooling then... get after it!! HTH Brad Musil (aka Bam Bam) From: " Guido Ruiz H." To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: RE: [80] Steering wonder Date sent: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 00:10:03 -0400 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Bam Bam Sorry to cut in but I had the caster correction bushings installed twice and both time had to change them because the rubber came loose from the metal . First time I dont know if they where installed correctly as i was not present but second time I was and they did it correctly , they also have those special press toolings to do it smoothly. What happened !! Are they of such bad quality. Both of them where black rubber things and know I see they come in a yellow rubber. Anyway I installed again the original bushings as I have a custom made Bull bar (almost double as heavy as the ARB) a WARN 12000 and double Batterys. I really cannot feel the difference between the correction and the original ones. Rgds Guido From: "Mick Barson" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80] Steering wonder Date sent: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 22:56:07 +0800 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com -----Original Message----- From: BAM To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Date: Friday, 27 August 1999 10:42 Subject: Re: [80] Steering wonder >Robert, who did the OME installation for you??? As an authorized OME installer >I would not have let you remove the vehicle from my shop without the caster >correction having been installed. I know there are those who say that their >vehicle drives ok without the correction bushings, but I've driven them both >ways and just don't feel it's worth taking the chance on having an ill >handeling/unsafe vehicle. If you did the install yourself, then by all means, >buy the caster correction kit, and have someone who knows what they are doing >install it!! I say have someone do it for you because you'll need a shop press >of at least 12 ton capacity to remove the bushings from the leading control >arms, and I've made special press tooling to make the process safer and more >accurate. If you have access to such tooling then... get after it!! HTH > >Brad Musil (aka Bam Bam) Reply from one whose vehicle drives ok, This is a puzzleing one Bam, as i have the OME suspension, (NO caster correction kit), and have had it installed since brand new, no steering problems at all !! hands of the wheel at any speed and tracks straight ! BFG A/T, 68K and no uneven tyre wear ( the dealer has rotated tyres, but still on the original balance & Alignment) also recently just replaced brake pads at 60k. So i guess IMO some need it others dont, why spend $230 if you dont have to? Cheers Mick : West Aussie 97' 1HD-FT Auto ARB,OME,Kaymar,Cibie,Long Ranger,Snorkel,etc ickbar@southwest.com.au http://www.southwest.com.au/~ickbar ICQ# 39756961 From: "Norm Needham" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80] Steering wonder Date sent: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 15:44:08 +1000 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com From: BAM >Robert, who did the OME installation for you??? As an authorized OME installer >I would not have let you remove the vehicle from my shop without the caster >correction having been installed. I know there are those who say that their >vehicle drives ok without the correction bushings, but I've driven them both >ways and just don't feel it's worth taking the chance on having an ill >handeling/unsafe vehicle. Brad, May I comment here, I think you might be frightening the pants off Robert. In Oz (where OME was born...and lives and breaths) there is around 150 OME authorised fitting shops. The vast majority of them do NOT insist on fitting the caster correction bushes in every case. Neither does OME themselves insist that they be fitted. Of the minority who do insist they be fitted, I know of a couple who do it purely to get the bigger sale. To me, this is not the way to treat fellow 4WDrivers. I am not suggesting that your motives are similar. In fact, from your words, it is clear that you have a true conviction. As arguably the biggest independent ARB/OME authorised fitter in Oz, we approach the issue by fully informing the user of the pros and cons. viz. Yes, the steering will be affected; but to varying degrees depending on where the caster was from the factory (and this varies quite a bit). There is no argument that caster correction bushes will make a significant difference to the feel of the steering, but, a small degree of steering difficulty/vagueness/wander can be corrected by other means such as taking toe-in to it's maximum. The user should decide (with our guidance) as to whether or not the bushes should be used. That guidance involves the driving of the vehicle by an experienced fitter, and the measurement of the caster on a wheel alignment machine. The use to which the vehicle will be put, and the user's expectations of the suspension performance must also be taken into account. The urethane bushes are NOT as supple as the original rubber, do not last as long, stress the radius mounting brackets in high articulation use, and often are noisy both in themselves and with transmission of road noise. As for braking in a straight line; yes, caster correction will help, but incorrect caster is NOT generally the cause; it simply exacerbates the real cause (whatever that may be). In the great majority of cases in Oz, the user's vehicle retains the original equipment bushes. Another option to offer the user is that of re-locating the radius arm brackets and/or mounting holes. This is not a cheap alternative as there is often quite some labour time involved, but it gives an imminently better outcome. I guess I am arguing compromise again. Well....as soon as economics comes into it (and economics plays a big part in suspension mods), then compromise follows. Cheers * Norm Needham * * Traction 4 / ARB Northside * Sydney, Australia * Trac4@bigpond.com From: bmusil@ibm.net Date sent: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:06:51 -0700 To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Subject: Re: [80] Steering wonder Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Mick Barson wrote: > Reply from one whose vehicle drives ok, > This is a puzzleing one Bam, as i have the OME suspension, (NO caster > correction kit), and have had it installed since brand new, no steering > problems at all !! hands of the wheel at any speed and tracks straight ! BFG > A/T, 68K and no uneven tyre wear ( the dealer has rotated tyres, but still on > the original balance & Alignment) also recently just replaced brake pads at > 60k. So i guess IMO some need it others dont, why spend $230 if you dont have > to? Cheers Mick : West Aussie 97' 1HD-FT Auto ARB,OME,Kaymar,Cibie,Long > Ranger,Snorkel,etc ickbar@southwest.com.au http://www.southwest.com.au/~ickbar > ICQ# 39756961 Well Mick, it's really fairly simple actually. I've never done one that didn't improve for my having done the caster correction. BUT... Secondarily and maybe even more of a reason for me is... We have people (sorry if I've offended the rest of the human race) over here who make their living suing the sh*t out of everybody else (aka Lawyers). More of those guys per capata than anywhere else in the world, I'm told. If someone goes out of here without the 'caster correction' and, God forbid, has an accident... guess who will be named in the lawsuit... therefor; I won't take any chances. Ever heard of the "MacDonalds Coffee case"... I just don't have millions of $$$ lying around. If I did... you poor bastards in OZ would have to put up with me coming over there for a visit. ;-)) Cheers Brad Musil (aka Bam Bam) From: bmusil@ibm.net Date sent: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 11:11:23 -0700 To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Subject: Re: [80] Steering wonder Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Norm Needham wrote: > Yes, the steering will be affected; but to varying degrees depending on > where the caster was from the factory (and this varies quite a bit). > There is no argument that caster correction bushes will make a > significant difference to the feel of the steering, but, a small degree > of steering difficulty/vagueness/wander can be corrected by other means > such as taking toe-in to it's maximum. The user should decide (with our > guidance) as to whether or not the bushes should be used. That guidance > involves the driving of the vehicle by an experienced fitter, and the > measurement of the caster on a wheel alignment machine. > The use to which the vehicle will be put, and the user's expectations > of the suspension performance must also be taken into account. The words are yours... "Yes, the steering WILL be affected" (emphasis mine). As we both have found out, the steering is usually impacted in a negative fashion. See my earlier response to Mick about the lawyers. I too, go over all the ramifications with the customer Norm... but I do it in such a way as to steer (no pun intended) the customer to the conclusion that the caster correction is the 'best and safest approach'. I've never had a customer decline to put them in, as far as I remember, but if that were to be his decision, I guess I would require that he sign a 'hold harmless wavier'. > The urethane bushes are NOT as supple as the original rubber, do not last > > as long, stress the radius mounting brackets in high articulation use, > and often are noisy both in themselves and with transmission of road > noise. You'll get no argument here! > As for braking in a straight line; yes, caster correction will help, Again you and I are in agreement, and this is another point in favor of the correction kit. > Another option to offer the user is that of re-locating the radius arm > brackets and/or mounting holes. This is not a cheap alternative as > there is often quite some labour time involved, but it gives an > imminently better outcome. Norm, I'm assuming that you are lowering the bracket (relative to the frame) to achieve the desired caster increase?? This you are doing just to retain the factory bushings, right? You are correct about the sincerity of my beliefs Norm, and the $150 I charge to do the correction install won't make me wealthy or allow me to retire. It will however allow me to sleep at night knowing that I did everything I could to provide my customer with the safest handling vehicle, given parts availability and design considerations. It also just might keep me out of court... (gotta cover all the bases: you know how it is). MyBest, Brad Musil (aka Bam Bam) From: "Robert Palarchio" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80]Steering ( correction bushings) Date sent: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 23:09:08 -0400 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com ----- Original Message ----- From: BAM To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 10:10 PM Subject: Re: [80] Steering wonder > Robert, who did the OME installation for you??? As an authorized OME installer > I would not have let you remove the vehicle from my shop without the caster > correction having been installed. I know there are those who say that their > vehicle drives ok without the correction bushings, but I've driven them both > ways and just don't feel it's worth taking the chance on having an ill > handeling/unsafe vehicle. If you did the install yourself, then by all means, > buy the caster correction kit, and have someone who knows what they are doing > install it!! I say have someone do it for you because you'll need a shop press > of at least 12 ton capacity to remove the bushings from the leading control > arms, and I've made special press tooling to make the process safer and more > accurate. If you have access to such tooling then... get after it!! HTH > > Brad Musil (aka Bam Bam) Hey Bam, my son Nick (16yrs.)did the install. Do you stock these corre. bushings? What material are they? Anything on the 80 tech pages on them? thanks, Rob Date sent: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:40:09 -0700 From: Brad Musil To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Subject: Re: [80]Steering ( correction bushings) Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Robert Palarchio wrote: > Hey Bam, my son Nick (16yrs.)did the install. Do you stock these corre. > bushings? What material are they? Anything on the 80 tech pages on them? > thanks, Rob Yes, I do stock them. I'm not sure what the tech pages have concerning the caster correction bushings. The revised bushings are now made of polyurethane (yellow in color) and seem to be more durable than the previous dark blue ones. Good for your son!! Good also that you and he can enjoy working together on a project like the suspension. You must be proud of him, keep up the good parenting... it shows!! If you want the bushings, we can probably figure out how to get then to you... but like I stated: you absolutely must have a press to attempt this job. Where do you live? MyBest, Brad Musil (aka Bam Bam) Date sent: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 18:27:35 +1000 From: George Couyant Organization: SGI To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Subject: Re: [80]Steering ( correction bushings) Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Brad Musil wrote: > > Yes, I do stock them. I'm not sure what the tech pages have concerning the > caster correction bushings. The revised bushings are now made of polyurethane > (yellow in color) and seem to be more durable than the previous dark blue > ones. The latest ones (back to yellow) are stiffer again. Be wary of them when looking for full axle articulation and keep an eye on the RHS axle brackets around the semi circular cut-outs. -- Cheers gc '97 HDJ80 - Melbourne Oz http://reality.sgi.com/80_series/bios/george_couyant.html From: "Norm Needham" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Re: [80]Steering ( correction bushings) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 08:47:41 +1000 Reply-To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com From: George Couyant > Brad Musil wrote: > > > > Yes, I do stock them. I'm not sure what the tech pages have concerning the > > caster correction bushings. The revised bushings are now made of polyurethane > > (yellow in color) and seem to be more durable than the previous dark blue ones. > > The latest ones (back to yellow) are stiffer again. Be wary of them when > looking for full axle articulation and keep an eye on the RHS axle > brackets around the semi circular cut-outs. > The latest ones also have the centre steel bit in two pieces, and pushed in rather than moulded in. I guess that will get around the problem of the urethane separating (it already is;-). This separation was a problem because when (not if) it occurred, the arm would slip side to side within the axle housing cheek plates. The two piece centre sections now have shoulders (like shackle bushes) to stop the side slide. My feeling is that under heavy articulation, these will last even less time because the head will chew into the urethane. The whole point is that urethane is not as flexible as rubber, nor does it have the memory to return to shape when severely deformed. Why don't OME make rubber bushes, we cry? Simply because the small production volume would make them too expensive. Cheers * Norm Needham * * Traction4 / ARB Northside * Sydney, Australia * Trac4@bigpond.com Date sent: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 19:14:13 -0400 From: Simmons To: "80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com" <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: [80] Front Bushings. Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com I have a 1993 FZJ. I have less than 8000 miles on an OME install with the castor correction kit. I have never had any problems with steering wander, handling or any feeling of instability. I have maybe 100 mile of off highway use. Some of this did involve rock crawling with full cycle articulation. I had developed a noise from under the vehicle that seemed to be an impact against a frame member due to the resonance. I thought that possibly the exhaust was bouncing against the frame or my newly installed side bars. When this did not seem to be the cause. Lengthy under vehicle inspections checking clearances were done and I moved to the drive train and suspension. Checked all the bolts to the newly replaced locker and locker shields. Then to the rear suspension. sway bar, panhard bar, spare tire and shocks. No loose bolts or clearance issues even when articulated. When I went to the front I found all tight but there is a difference in clearance of the right (pass) and left (drivers) side locating arm where it mounts to the axle. The drivers side is centered between the axle flanges but the pass is all the way to one side with the black bushing showing on one side with none on the other. This would generate the sound I am hearing when the vehicle moves from side to side on a trial and when crossing a curb/sidewalk into a drive way. Has this bushing failed? Was the install not correct, when pressed into the arm? If so can it be pressed into the arm again? If it has failed can I replace just this set of bushings? Hope this gives enough information to help me? Scott C. Simmons 93FZJ, ARB, OME, Locked x3, Date sent: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 10:04:42 +1000 From: George Couyant Organization: SGI To: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Subject: Re: [80] Front Bushings. Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com Simmons wrote: > When I went to the front I found all tight but there is a difference in > clearance of the right (pass) and left (drivers) side locating arm where > it mounts to the axle. The drivers side is centered between the Scott, it certainly sounds like the bush has pulled out of either the centre or outer sleeve. Consider it stuffed and it needs replacing asap in case it turns. Norm has been a busy boy and just sent me a photo of mods he's made to the front axle leading arm brackets to pull 2 deg of caster back from a raised front end (thanks Norm, you're a champ!). Seems a simple mod, uses the stock bushes (which are very good) and will probably work well for the life of the vehicle. I'll get it up on the site soon. Cheers gc '97 HDJ80 - Melbourne Oz From: "Norm Needham" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80] Front Bushings. Date sent: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 18:48:16 +1000 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com From: George Couyant > > Norm has been a busy boy and just sent me a photo of mods he's made to > the front axle leading arm brackets to pull 2 deg of caster back from a > > I'll get it up on the site soon. > I had better write a word or two then! 1) The photo is self explanatory. 2) Use a die grinder and carbide burr to do the cutting. 3) Make the square washers from a piece of flat bar (3-4mm thick). 4) Drill the hole in the flat bar washers to 14mm. 5) To make sure that a full nut goes onto the bolt, remove the original captive washer from bolt. 6) Take poison of choice 7) Weld square washer after tightening bolt. Elongating by bolt diameter (14mm) moves caster two degrees. Four degrees change could be obtained by doing similar elongation to back mounting hole in opposite direction. Cheers * Norm Needham * * Traction4 / ARB Northside * Sydney, Australia * Trac4@bigpond.com From: "Norm Needham" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80] SYMPTONS Date sent: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 22:53:54 +1100 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com From: Paul Brennan > What are the symptons one should expect to determine if the castor > correction is required ? > >I have the HARD OME springs with N74 shocks, together with a 2.5" body >lift > >How do I know if need to correct CASTOR or not ? Paul, When you start bouncing off cars travelling in other lanes, then it is time for caster correction. ;-) Obviously, your caster will have changed with the spring lift, but if you are happy with the way it drives, then leave it alone. Caster correction using eccentric urethane bushes can cause some niggly problems: 1) The urethane wears faster 2) Original rubber is more elastic 3) The "stiffness" of the urethane causes more stress on mountings. There is other ways of correcting caster while using original bushes, ranging from elongating control arm mounting holes (relatively quick and easy), to cutting and rotating balls. Oo...my eyes are watering. ;-) The use of eccentric king pin bearings which allows caster and camber adjustment independently on each front wheel is a reasonable option for part time 4WD models. It exacerbates axle seal leakage on full timers. Cheers * Norm Needham * * Traction4 / ARB Northside * Sydney, Australia * Trac4@bigpond.com From: "Norm Needham" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: Re: [80] Lift n bushings Date sent: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 07:02:53 +1100 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com From: Ronny Gabrieloff >How much is a couple of degrees rotation? My 80 is >agressively wandering after the lift, partially due to >worn tires, but I am hoping to have Boulder Toy do the >bushings tommorow. Like GC said; it's a compromise. For instance, the year '90 workshop manual shows: for 31x10.55x15, 265/75x15, and 9.00x15 tyres, caster should be one degree 40 minutes +/- 60 minutes for "other" tyres (no spec) it should be 3 degrees +/- 60 minutes. That gives an effective range of 40 minutes to 4 degrees. Pretty open tolerance to say the least. What you need is a setting that you are comfortable with. Caster cannot be measured on the garage floor. It needs an alignment machine. Most folks use the eccentric bushes set at their maximum correction (a bit over 2 degrees). Cheers * Norm Needham * * Traction 4 / ARB Northside * Sydney, Australia * Trac4@bigpond.com From: "paul & robyn dilley" To: <80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com> Subject: [80] norms castor mod. Date sent: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:36:44 +1000 Send reply to: 80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com hello all! for peoples info, i fitted some tjm2000 springs front and rear-770fs80b, 770rs80b, linear rate. lift is approx. 40mm over stock ( not that much!). they have been on the car for 6 months, wife complained about twitchy steering, i got wheel alignment readings the other day- castor- .11 degree negative! decided to do mod, was piece of cake, took about 2 hours, used ceramic tiles as backing plates and mig'd up the original holes and redrilled new ones 14mm lower, if 14mm equates to 2 degrees then should be now approx 1.9 degrees positive. car drives much better! thanks norm! paul, dysart qld. '96 gxl 4.5l auto,series 2000 coils,koni's,ecb,super oscars,pirahna,engel,tx4000r, etc.