From:             "Willem-Jan Markerink" 
To:               80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com
Date sent:        Sat, 17 Jul 1999 21:20:14 +0100
Subject:          Re: [80] 1HD Starter Voltage?
Send reply to:    80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com

On 17 Jul 99 at 12:31, Juanito P. Bonpua Jr. wrote:

> Questions for the group. My 80 operates on 12V electrical with a 24V =
> starter dual battery system . It uses a relay to somehow engage the =
> second battery in parallel to achieve 24V. Are all 1HD 80 worldwide =
> operates the same way? I heard Europe's 80 are set up the same way, =
> Willem? From what I gather, Oz 80 are strictly 12V including the =
> starter. If this is true, why the different set up? Sorry US audience no = 1HD
> option in your shore:-)

It's an Euro-spec detail, to make starting easier in cold weather.
Previous heavy-duty Cruisers as well as current HZJ-75 have a true 24V 
system....much better if you start looking at winch performance....on 
an 80, only the starter benefits from 24V.
Toyota probably skipped the true 24V on luxury models because it can 
cause problems with 12V accessories, when not hooked up correctly.

(draining only one battery, which means the drained one never gets
full, while the non-drained one is cooked....the correct way is
through a 24->12V converter, although Hella recently introduced a
'load-balancer', to make sure that both batteries get the charge they
need, even if one is drained directly with 12V accessories....5A and
8A loads can be cured this way on a continuous basis)

An entire chapter about the ins and outs of 12V accessories on 24V 
systems is on my homepage:

http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mainpage.htm

Some pretty scary details too....hooking a 12V winch to a true 24V 
system can end deadly....

Btw winches: does anyone know whether the Warn 8274 will get the new 
4.1hp motor as well?


--                 
Bye,

Willem-Jan Markerink


      The desire to understand 
is sometimes far less intelligent than
     the inability to understand



[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]










From:             "Willem-Jan Markerink" 
To:               80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com
Date sent:        Sat, 17 Jul 1999 21:46:10 +0100
Subject:          Re: [80] 1HD Starter Voltage?
Send reply to:    80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com

On 17 Jul 99 at 21:00, Juanito P. Bonpua Jr. wrote:

> Ian,
> 
> Do you know how the system works? On one battery it has a plastic cover on
> both terminals with a written warning in Japanese & English (thank God) that
> warn not to jump a 12V vehicle from this battery, use the other. So I figured
> this battery must run on 24V and the uncovered on 12V. As suspected as
> measured with my Fluke 87 VOM, the uncovered battery measured 12.98V. To my
> surprise, the covered battery measured 12.96. This left me scratching my head.
> Why would Toyota put a warning on the second battery when both batteries are
> in fact 12V. I thought well maybe when you actually crank the starter the
> relay engage and that's when this battery runs on 24V. Unfortunately, my
> significant other was not around to crank the 80 while I check for voltage.
> 
> If anyone in the group knows how this system works, please educate me.
> Thanks.

Batteries, measured at their own terminals, always give 12V. And on the 
HDJ-80, only during starting one terminal will show 24V when compared to 
*ground*....other than during this moment of starting, it will be 12V 
wherever you look. And during starting, you have 'ground' and '+12V' 
on the low-end battery, and '+12V' and '+24V' on the high-end 
battery....that's the definition of a serial set of batteries (in 
contrast to 'parallel').

Cute detail: when we bought our HDJ-80, 3 years old and 100k, it 
didn't have the original batteries. And the Dutch manual did not say 
a word about starting procedures....only the English manual did.


My guess why Toyota sealed the terminals of that battery: 

A) during starting the high-end battery will show +12V and +24V on its 
terminals....

B) very very official jump-start procedures indicate that one should 
hook the 'plus' cord to the terminal, and the 'minus' cord close to 
the ground strap on the engine....as this will avoid poor/corroded 
ground straps (an otherwise common cause for poor starting!).
Now try to imagine what happens if you hook a 12V donor vehicle to 
the high-end battery (the one that has 24V on its 
terminal during starting), thinking the plus terminal is 12V, and hooking the
'minus' cord to the engine....instead of the donor giving the patient a 12V
boost, the donor might receive a 24V boost....can you say fuses blowing?....:-))

[all this would not happen if both cords are attached to the battery, 
but as #B indicates, Murphy can choose otherways]


My point why this warning is absolute crap: one cannot choose which
one of the two batteries is the most dead....which means you might
have no other choice than to jump-start the sealed one....and if
*both* are dead as a doornail, you even need two
donor-vehicles during starting....this is the theoretical nightmare of any 24V
system: having only one 12V donor nearby. It's not catastrophical, if you have
patience you can use the donor-vehicle to charge both batteries to a certain
level....but it not fool-proof (a really dead battery might not take any charge
at all), and far from convenient. The only luck with a 80 is that you can charge
both batteries at the same time (they are parallel 12V when not starting)....but
if both batteries have really passed out, then this charging won't help either.

Whew, got a lot longer than I thought, hope thy brains are not 
cracking....mine are....8-))
Looks like I just wrote another chapter/FAQ for my homepage....:-))


--                 
Bye,

Willem-Jan Markerink


      The desire to understand 
is sometimes far less intelligent than
     the inability to understand



[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]










From:             "Willem-Jan Markerink" 
To:               80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com
Date sent:        Sun, 18 Jul 1999 18:38:47 +0100
Subject:          Re: [80] 1HD Starter Voltage?
Send reply to:    80_series@sgiblab.sgi.com

On 18 Jul 99 at 6:36, Juanito P. Bonpua Jr. wrote:

> Willem,
> 
> Thanks for the education man, I did not know how the whole system works. 

You should have been there when I pestered and haunted distributor, 
dealers and mechanics about this issue....from the manual, it is also not 
very clear where to hook a winch....at one time, I even drove a 
mechanic so nuts that he was willing to hook it up to the 
accessories-outlet (there is a lovely black box in your engine 
compartiment, where you can find +12V in all 3 key positions 
(off/acc/on)....have yet to meet a living soul/Cruiser who really 
uses this outlet)....but with 20A, that's not very helpful....8-))

> You
> are right about harder to find an accessories for a true 24V system (except
> for a 24V Warn winch) as in my Patrol (sorry I mentioned the word) which is a
> true 24V system. Are all Patrols worldwide 24V as it is here? 

No, same cold/warm split worldwide.
Once came across a sorry soul in Austria....a Nissan owner 
stranded with an empty battery on a cold night....he didn't even know 
he had 24V until I pointed out the luck he had in finding me....8-))

> Are Oz HDJ80s dual battery (parallel) set up? 

No, single battery, on the left. 
Note that Euro/cold-spec Hilux diesels get a factory dual battery 
system in 12V parallel.

> It seems like here in Japan all
> diesel engine 6 cylinder or larger get a 24V starter. Thanks again Willem for
> the in depth starter education.

Btw Japan idiosyncrasies....in a German mag, I again read about an 
obscure Toyota detail, the 5.0L V12 in the Toyota Century (high end 
limousine)....one can't help wondering if no-one has ever tried 
shoe-horning it into a Cruiser....with 280hp, it sounds cute.
Jaguar V12's are known to be shoe-horned into a Range Rover....:-))
(the article was mainly about the upcoming Mercedes V12....with 222kg 
the lightest engine of the pack (there are only 5 other V12's on the 
market currently).

--                 
Bye,

Willem-Jan Markerink


      The desire to understand 
is sometimes far less intelligent than
     the inability to understand



[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]










From:             "Roman (UK)" 
Send reply to:    "roman.g@dial.pipex.com" 
To:               "'w.j.markerink@a1.nl'" 
Subject:          12v/24V again
Date sent:        Wed, 8 May 2002 11:18:55 +0100

Willem-Jan,

Hello again. I am still struggling with the electrics in my '92 HDJ80 and need
your help. You may be the only person I know who has the knowledge of the
European systems.

As it turned out I need to get a new alternator as the OEM unit gave up ghost
(the alloy casing has cracked). I keep loking at the Toyota electrical diagram
and can't figure out how the system works. All I know it's a 24V starter motor,
12V alternator, two 12v batteries,  and everything else is also 12V.

Have you ever looked inside the  12-24V switchover RELAY, or have you got the
diagram for it?

Have you ever looked inside the  12-24V switchover TIMER RELAY, or have you got
the diagram for it?

How is the charging of the two batteries done if there's no split charger in the
system to balance the loads?

Is it possible that  each battery supplies current to a separate part of the 12V
system (still, how the two batteries are chaged without a split charger is a
mystery to me?

Hoping you can shed some light on this problem,
Rgds,
Roman (UK)










From:                 Self 
To:               roman.g@dial.pipex.com
Subject:          Re: 12v/24V again
Send reply to:    w.j.markerink@a1.nl
Date sent:        Wed, 8 May 2002 17:52:03 +0100

On  8 May 02 at 11:18, Roman (UK) wrote:

> Willem-Jan,
> 
> Hello again. I am still struggling with the electrics in my '92 HDJ80 and need
> your help. You may be the only person I know who has the knowledge of the
> European systems.
> 
> As it turned out I need to get a new alternator as the OEM unit gave up ghost
> (the alloy casing has cracked). I keep loking at the Toyota electrical diagram
> and can't figure out how the system works. All I know it's a 24V starter
> motor, 12V alternator, two 12v batteries,  and everything else is also 12V.

Yes.

> Have you ever looked inside the  12-24V switchover RELAY, or have you got the
> diagram for it?

Not for this one in particular, nor with any guide to say which 
terminal is positive or ground, but the basic concept is quite simple 
(have fabricated something similar for a model-scale radio-controlled 
track; two banks of 12V NiCd packs, switching from parallel 12v to 
serial 24v)

> Have you ever looked inside the  12-24V switchover TIMER RELAY, or have you
> got the diagram for it?
> 
> How is the charging of the two batteries done if there's no split charger in
> the system to balance the loads?

Just like any other bank of batteries that has 12v as output, 
parallel, positive to positive, minus to minus....BUT: *except* 
during starting....at that very moment, the non-ground minus is 
switched to the positive of the grounded battery.

12v:

(0v)               (12v)
ground -- positive 
     |               |
minus  -- positive



24v:

(0v)                                                    (12v)
ground --> positive --> minus --> positive


> Is it possible that  each battery supplies current to a separate part of the
> 12V system (still, how the two batteries are chaged without a split charger is
> a mystery to me?

No, the batteries are switched back and forth.
This is also what makes it almost *impossible* to jump-start it when both 
batteries are completely empty (and jumping only one battery is not 
enough)....unless you have *two* donor vehicles, each being a separate 12v.

> Hoping you can shed some light on this problem,
> Rgds,
> Roman (UK)

It's not a problem, just order any 12v alternator....:)) 

--
Bye,

Willem-Jan Markerink

      The desire to understand 
is sometimes far less intelligent than
     the inability to understand


[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]












To:               
Subject:          Re: 12v/24V again
Date sent:        Wed, 08 May 2002 18:31:47 +0100
From:             "Roman (UK)" 

Quoting Willem-Jan Markerink :

> On  8 May 02 at 11:18, Roman (UK) wrote:
> 
> > Willem-Jan,
> > 
> > Hello again. I am still struggling with the electrics in my '92 HDJ80 and need 
> > your help. You may be the only person I know who has the knowledge of the 
> > European systems.
> > 
> > As it turned out I need to get a new alternator as the OEM unit gave up ghost 
> > (the alloy casing has cracked). I keep loking at the Toyota electrical diagram 
> > and can't figure out how the system works. All I know it's a 24V starter motor, 
> > 12V alternator, two 12v batteries,  and everything else is also 12V.
> 
> Yes.
>  
> > Have you ever looked inside the  12-24V switchover RELAY, or have you got the 
> > diagram for it?
> 
> Not for this one in particular, nor with any guide to say which 
> terminal is positive or ground, but the basic concept is quite simple 
> (have fabricated something similar for a model-scale radio-controlled 
> track; two banks of 12V NiCd packs, switching from parallel 12v to 
> serial 24v)
>  
> > Have you ever looked inside the  12-24V switchover TIMER RELAY, or have you got 
> > the diagram for it?
> > 
> > How is the charging of the two batteries done if there's no split charger in 
> > the system to balance the loads?
> 
> Just like any other bank of batteries that has 12v as output, 
> parallel, positive to positive, minus to minus....BUT: *except* 
> during starting....at that very moment, the non-ground minus is 
> switched to the positive of the grounded battery.
> 
> 12v:
> 
> (0v)               (12v)
> ground -- positive 
>      |               |
> minus  -- positive
> 
> 
> 
> 24v:
> 
> (0v)                                                    (12v)
> ground --> positive --> minus --> positive
> 
>  
> > Is it possible that  each battery supplies current to a separate part of the 
> > 12V system (still, how the two batteries are chaged without a split charger is 
> > a mystery to me?
> 
> No, the batteries are switched back and forth.
> This is also what makes it almost *impossible* to jump-start it when both 
> batteries are completely empty (and jumping only one battery is not 
> enough)....unless you have *two* donor vehicles, each being a separate
> 12v.
>  
> > Hoping you can shed some light on this problem,
> > Rgds,
> > Roman (UK)
> 
> It's not a problem, just order any 12v alternator....:)) 

Willem-Jan,

Many thanks. What you have just said is what I originally figured out about how
the system may be set up. But my inability to understand is even greater than
the desire when it comes to this problem: if you put two batteries in parallel,
without load balancing only one will get fully charged (the other being pulled
down by the weaker one). Another option would be to use a dual output alternator
which would obviate the need for a separate balancer. If you say it's a simple
12V alternator, then it must be a very basic setup. I was wondering, has Toyota
cut corners by omitting this from the system or is this function built in one of
the two back boxes I mentioned? It appears it's not. Maybe I can figure out if
it's worth improving. 

I have no way at the moment to check it out as my LC is in a workshop in North
Wales (getting the axles rebuild, engine cleaned and flushed, injectors
reconditioned and generally getting sorted out for the next season of travel in
the Sahara).

Regards,
Roman (UK)










From:                 Self 
To:               "Roman (UK)" 
Subject:          Re: 12v/24V again
Send reply to:    w.j.markerink@a1.nl
Date sent:        Wed, 8 May 2002 21:54:15 +0100

On  8 May 02 at 18:31, Roman (UK) wrote:

> 
> Willem-Jan,
> 
> Many thanks. What you have just said is what I originally figured out about
> how the system may be set up. But my inability to understand is even greater
> than the desire when it comes to this problem: if you put two batteries in
> parallel, without load balancing only one will get fully charged (the other
> being pulled down by the weaker one). 

No, that load-balancing thing is much more related to a true 
24v/serial system....12v/parallel is much easier on the batteries, as 
each battery can pick it own charge (while a 24v setup is 'leveled', 
especially if discharged non-equally before: the most empty battery 
is undercharged, while the least empty battery is overcharged).

> Another option would be to use a dual output 
> alternator which would obviate the need for a separate balancer. If you say
> it's a simple 12V alternator, then it must be a very basic setup. I was
> wondering, has Toyota cut corners by omitting this from the system or is this
> function built in one of the two back boxes I mentioned? It appears it's not.
> Maybe I can figure out if it's worth improving. 

Nope, for the batteries, this setup is much more friendly than a true 
24v setup (while maintaining the oomp from a 24v starter, but sadly 
not that oomp of a 24v winch).
The only nasty problem occurs when both batteries on a 80 or 
100-series are completely empty, or worse, trashed (so that they 
can't even hold a charge anymore; a charge that could otherwise solve 
the single-donor problem: charge each battery for a period of time, 
*then* crank without donor-boost).

> I have no way at the moment to check it out as my LC is in a workshop in North
> Wales (getting the axles rebuild, engine cleaned and flushed, injectors
> reconditioned and generally getting sorted out for the next season of travel
> in the Sahara).

Lucky you....;)) 

--
Bye,

Willem-Jan Markerink

      The desire to understand 
is sometimes far less intelligent than
     the inability to understand


[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]

If you have any question, remark, comment, want to share some philosophy or just want to express your opinion about these pages, feel free to send email to: w.j.markerink @ a1.nl