Date sent: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:35:45 -0400 From: Christophe Cuvillier To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: [DTLC] pas de start Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net Susan and/or David Dannenberg wrote: > > My HJ failed me today :O !! > > Been a touch hard to start last coupla' days, and intermitantly almost > hesitant. Runs better hot. Then today I drove it about 2 miles this AM, it sat > a few hours, then was tough to start and had no power. A half mile later it > died. > > So far: cranks but will not start. > > I have done the following: > > battery clamps are worse than I realized--could remove wire from driver's side > positive clamp with fingers! So I pulled it out, removed some insulation, > squashed the end of the cable sort of flat, and used the disconnected clamp to > squeeze it against the battery terminal. Negative is pretty loose (won't > tighten any more, but is not tight). [I have clamps on order from Chris > Culliver and will buy welding cable to make good cables] I was working in > field with only open end wrenches, a screwdrive and Leatherman, or I'd have > soldered the old clamp back on. > > I checked the water seperator and got fuel on my left arm down to the elbow. > > I cracked the bleeder on the filter mount and cranked and fuel comes out. > Retightened. > > I loosened one injection nozzle just a touch, cranked, and fuel comes out; > retightened. > > It still cranks but will not run. Acts like a gas engine that isn't getting > spark. When hesitant acts like a gasser on 5 of 6 cylinders... > > I have no idea what to do. Is it possible that the crappy clamps are not > prividing enough juice to the EDIC? That seems unlikely as the starter > cranks like a champ (though I do no understand how, except that it is warm so > there is plenty o' current to make it through a marginal connection). It does indeed look like the EDIC might have failed you somehow. I had that happen once, but only for a brief second on the highway. So I stop by the side, and turn the engine off: it won't shut off!!! Fortunately, that was an isolated incident, it never happened again. But I know of people on whose truck the EDIC failed, and there is fortunately a simple fix for it. Read on. First things first: have you checked its operation to make sure that it is the EDIC? While cranking, verify that the actuator arm actually moves towards the EDIC motor, away from the STOP position (at least that's the position on a 3B). If it doesn't, something's wrong with the EDIC system. First check the fuses and the connectors. Sometimes just removing the connector and putting it back on is sufficient to solve the problem. Have someone crank the truck while you actuate the injection pump lever yourself towards the EDIC. It could feel a bit hard as the relay rod is a flexible assembly with a spring in it. So you have STOP, then RUN, then START. STOP shuts the fuel off, RUN gives it the normal amount and START over injects for starting. If it proves to be the problem, take the rod off the EDIC end (it's got a spring loaded socket joint) and temporarily rig it by taping it to the EDIC motor body with duct tape till you get to a garage. You can replace the EDIC system with a simple choke cable setup, it's simple, cheap and foolproof. > > Damn thing is parked a mile and a half from here awaiting assistence or the > right phase of the moon. > > First $13,500 US takes it. :) If it's the EDIC and you go the manual route, first $13.50 will fix it! > > Any help appreciated. > > David Good Luck! -- Christophe Cuvillier Morin Heights, Quebec, Canada '83BJ60 "Marathon Runner", over 400,000 km From: Mike Graham To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: [DTLC] pas de start Date sent: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:26:04 -0400 Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, Susan and/or David Dannenberg wrote: > My HJ failed me today :O !! I think that Chris has covered the majority of what I would suggest. It *sounds* like the EDIC has been failing, and wasn't advancing all the way to overinject (i.e hard to start, but runs okay). If the EDIC was advancing particularly too little then it could account for the high temps you've been experiencing (running lean) maybe. I'm not 100% fond of the usual PTO-cable-solution to this problem... it works, and I'd use it, but I'm glad that the EDIC system will kill the engine when you lose oil pressure. That, to me, is a good thing. A malfunctioning EDIC, however, is a very bad thing. Do you have the engine manual for your engine? If so, it will have specs regarding how many degrees the EDIC should be turning the injector control in each phase of the game. -- Mike Graham, mikegraham at sprint dot ca Caledon, Ontario, Canada (just NW of Toronto). Raiser of animals. Weldor of metals. Driver of off-road vehicles. Writer of FAQs. Keeper of the faith, and all around okay guy. < homepage currently off-line due to change of ISP; back soon > From: "Dan / Maxine Loubier" To: Subject: Re: [DTLC] pas de start Date sent: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:15:46 -0600 Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net Hello Dave ! Hello Christophe ! Hello Mike G. ! Pas de start ? Alors essayez ce petit conseil !!! Disconnect the rod / linkage that goes from the EDIC motor to the injection pump and the pump will automatically return to the run position :-) Please (anyone out there that knows for sure) correct me if I am wrong on this...... The reason I say this is that our BJ70 had the EDIC disconnected already when we got it with a cheap (manual choke) cable that always returns to the run position after shutting down the engine and I am sure that this cable doesn't have a built-in spring !!! As for the rest of it ....... Christophe covered it well as usual :-) And Mike Graham made a very good point about your EDIC causing overheating :-) >I'm not 100% fond of the usual PTO-cable-solution to this problem... it >works, and I'd use it, but I'm glad that the EDIC system will kill the >engine when you lose oil pressure. That, to me, is a good thing. A >malfunctioning EDIC, however, is a very bad thing. Well I don't want to sound like I am preaching but let's face it...... we all know that sooner or later (if you keep your Cruiser) your EDIC *will fail*!!!! and it cost big time to replace That is one of the few Achille's heel on the diesel LandCruiser There is an alternative and definate improvement that you can fit to your diesel Cruiser that will positively protect your engine and can be wired into your ignition switch and will act like a normal EDIC (your wife will never know the difference :-) The advantage is that it not only protect you against low oil pressure but it will protect against low coolant levels and high coolant temperatures too Get yourself a Kysor engine monitering system with a 24volt fuel shut-off selenoid and life will be grand again :-) >>First $13,500 US takes it. :) Of course it will probably set you back about $500 US but then again your Cruiser would probably go for $14,000 US I hope this helps a bit Bye for now Dan Loubier loubier@incentre.net Peace River, Alberta, Canada 1985 BJ 70 1984 Hilux 4x4 extracab diesel From: "Paul J. Huber" To: Subject: RE: [DTLC] pas de start Date sent: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:27:07 -0800 Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net David, This sounds familiar to the problems I had with my HJ. It was tough to start had no power and then wouldn't start. Initially I thought it might be the EDIC. I disconnected and then tried, no change. The electric supply didn't really make a difference. I finally tracked it down to either bad fuel, water in line, or bad fuel filter. I drained all fuel, made sure there wasn't any water in separator, and replaced the fuel filter (there are generic ones available). Because I did all these at once I can't tell you which one it was but I haven't had a problem with it since. Oh BTW, the fuel was fresh from the station and not stale. HTH, Paul Date sent: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:33:11 -0700 From: Chad Koehn To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: [DTLC] pas de start Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net >>Not getting fuel. Check: for out of fuel, fuel filter, suction leak, >>bad lift pump, EDIC. There is a good chance that your hard fuel line has developed a pinhole leak. Up here in B.C. quite a few of the diesel 60s have rusty fuel lines up above the fuel tank. It usually starts to show itself as an intermittent "miss" that gradually gets worse. One way to check without pulling the tank, and a whole bunch of other stuff, is to rig up a small fuel tank under the hood and plumb it right into the rubber fuel line going into the lift pump. A 4 liter oil bottle with some copper line going through a hole in the lid has worked well for me. If you still can't get it running this way, then its probably the lift pump. A friend of mine had his lift pump go out in the bush, a long way from civilization. He got back by rigging up his jerry can as a gravity feed tank from the roof rack. There was enough pressure from the height of the tank to keep the injector pump happy. I don't know if this will work for you, but he found that by using the manual priming pump on the lift pump, he could get enough pressure to get him a couple of miles down the road before it would die again. Since he was many miles from home, he quickly rigged up the gravity feed system I mentioned above. HTH, Chad Koehn 1981 BJ42 3B Turbo, 1978 BJ40, 1976 FJ45 Richmond, B.C. ckoeh@cymbolic.com Date sent: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:50:01 -0400 To: dtlc@helios.net From: Susan and/or David Dannenberg Subject: [DTLC] ille runier plus grande! Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net Ahhh... My HJ seems to run tres tres bien. I changed the fuel filter per the directions in the manual and after much priming and much much cranking it runs well--or so it seems. I haven't driven it anywhere, but after a bunch of start-and-dies and some roughness, I was able to ease off the throttle and she idles nice, revs nice and STARTS nice. Many many thanks to all of you who were there with quick and sound advice. Let's hope that the filter was all, and not a bad tank of fuel or much crap in the bottom of the tank. David Date sent: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 12:41:36 -0300 To: dtlc@helios.net From: Rod LaHaise Subject: Re: [DTLC] continued woes--was pas de start Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net At 10:37 AM 21/08/99 -0400, you wrote: >As you know,last I got my HJ running again with the installation of a new >fuel filter. At one point it stalled after I switched on the AC. The next >day it was difficult starting and died after about 10 seconds running. I >need to pull the filter and see if maybe I got a bad batch of fuel, or >maybe my lift pump is shot or there is a hole in a fuel line. I don't have time >though. I wish I had a decent diesel mechanic nearby! > >Any other suggestions welcome. This is starting to sound very familiar, I would run the engine until it quits (or perform the following test when it fails to start). Loosen the bleeder screw on the fuel filter housing and pump the primer, you should have fuel on the first downstroke, if not you very likely have a bad feed line. I replaced the pickup tubes in the top of the tanks on both our trucks, Shelley's gave NO warning when it went. We had just driven 1000 miles problem free and it suddenly lost power and wouldn't go more than about 30 mph and it as a pig to start if it would even do so without priming. The pickup tube had rusted where it comes out of the tank and it was porous enough to let air enter the line when drawing hard. A pickup tube from a gas truck will fit but it has a return line that must be cut off and plugged (inside and out). The tank needs to come out to replace it and this is a good time to inspect for runs under the mounting straps as well as having the tank cleaned. Date sent: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 11:01:34 -0700 From: ad366@lafn.org (Dana Adams) To: suedave@pond.com Subject: Re: [DTLC] continued woes--was pas de start Copies to: dtlc@helios.net Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net Dave, I think Rod may have hit the nail on the head. When I was negotiating the purchase of my bj70, the seller told me he had similiar symptoms to what you describe. After lots of head scratching, they pulled the tank and found the pickup tube inside the tank had a pinhole leak and when the tank level got below half-full, the truck would behave as yours. When the tank was full, the pinhole was covered with fuel, so it ran normally. I guess the tank had some water in it, to cause the pinhole. HTH Dana Date sent: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 12:37:35 -0400 From: Christophe Cuvillier To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: [DTLC] continued woes--was pas de start Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net Susan and/or David Dannenberg wrote: > > > > >The lines themelves don't seem to be a problem with our trucks and yours is > >in better condition so I would not suspect anything other than the fuel > >pickup. > > > >I replaced the actual tube on Shelley's with a piece of standard metal fuel > >line bent to the proper shape and brazed into the metal plate that bolts to > >the tank but this was due to time restraints as the other option was to order > >the part. > > > >Rod > > Cool. I'll fool with priming etc. after breakfast than try to track down > someone willing to pull the tank and do the deed. I would consider doing > it, but time time time. Of course I just filled up too and there is the > matter of what to do with 20 gallons of diesel fuel... I couldn't resist... If you just filled up, a pinhole IN the pickup tube will certainly NOT create a fuel starvation situation. So if it doesn't start now, the pinhole (if any) is certainly somewhere else. BUT, the part of the pickup tube sticking OUT of the tank is in a VERY exposed place where rust forms readily, what with all the crud that accumulates on top of the tank. That's where it failed on my old rig. If priming solves the "sudden death" syndrome for a little while, then a pinhole is it. Make sure you tighten the priming pump back after using otherwise you'll probably either loose all your fuel through it or introduce more air in the system in a short while (depending of how much/little fuel you have in your system, and the attitude of the vehicle). I replaced the pickup tube on my old rig a few years ago with a piece of COPPER tubing that I brazed to the steel cap, and although I intended to have that repair as an emergency measure only while I was waiting for the $30 part, it never failed and I would think that it could last even longer than the original pipe, being copper. They should make that of SS, IMHO. BTW, I opened a hole in the floor and made myself a nice cover after that so I wouldn't need to drop the tank, although I wouldn't recommend it if because it will make tank removal unnecessary, and tanks RUST, especially behind the straps. One of the reasons I called my old rig "rusted but trusted". But not even being able to remove the rusted tank because of excessive, advanced rust (because of failed spot welds on the nuts holding the strap bolts) is a major PITA. That's what finally made me retire the old bugger last year... Sooo, if it's filled up to the top and there is some pressure in the tank (as when you've just filled up to the brim and drove back home less that a mile or so from your house, to provide a little air space that can expand as the temperature of the fuel in the tank increases from ground (around 55F) to ambient (about 70F in your location at the present time, right?)), ANY pinhole leak in the line will show as a drip within a few hours! And any others on the tank itself also, BTW! (If the level HAS dropped and the there is no visible leak, suspect a leak at the fuel sender, located right in the middle of the tank; an access cover is provided for it under the carpet.) Oh, used diesel... Smelly to work with, it is a great parts cleaning fluid. Also, once filtered through paper towel to remove rust particles, it'll mix well with heating fuel if you have an oil fired furnace. Well, I've rambled long enough. Take it easy, every problem has a solution, hope I didn't confuse you... -- Christophe Cuvillier Morin Heights, Quebec, Canada '83BJ60 "Marathon Runner", over 400,000 km Date sent: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 13:21:02 -0400 To: dtlc@helios.net From: Susan and/or David Dannenberg Subject: Re: [DTLC] continued woes--was pas de start Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net >I couldn't resist... If you just filled up, a pinhole IN the pickup tube >will certainly NOT create a fuel starvation situation. So if it doesn't >start now, the pinhole (if any) is certainly somewhere else. I had the same thought. > >BUT, the part of the pickup tube sticking OUT of the tank is in a VERY >exposed place where rust forms readily, what with all the crud that >accumulates on top of the tank. That's where it failed on my old rig. If >priming solves the "sudden death" syndrome for a little while, then a >pinhole is it. Ayup it solved it, though I am loath to drive anywhere. > Make sure you tighten the priming pump back after using >otherwise you'll probably either loose all your fuel through it or >introduce more air in the system in a short while (depending of how >much/little fuel you have in your system, and the attitude of the >vehicle). Hmmm. It was not real tight when I went to prime this time and I was wondering if this is my leak? > >I replaced the pickup tube on my old rig a few years ago with a piece of >COPPER tubing SNIP. They should make that of SS, IMHO. Yeah, they should. Whole damn vehicle could be stainless and I wouldn't mind :)/ >BTW, I opened a hole in the floor and made myself a nice cover after >that so I wouldn't need to drop the tank, Hmm. I pulled the carpet back today and removed the acess cover (one screw unbelievably tight, but ultimately removed, for the other I resorted to a drill out which lodged enough to snap off the bolt which is fine). The wire connections are good--soldered and covered with blue RTV. I replaced the RTV, oiled th e remaining screw, and put oil over what used to be screws holding the sending unit. Looked like ancient rivets. I hope I never need to get them out! Maybe the oil will penetrate over time. Anyway, as those connections are good, there is another source of my faulty guage. While in there, I noticed a little piece of sheet metal revited over the floor, back of the right wheel well, against the inner side panal. WOuld that be where the tube had been accessed previously? If so, should I grind the rivets and check there for the problem? > although I wouldn't recommend >it if because it will make tank removal unnecessary, and tanks RUST, >especially behind the straps. One of the reasons I called my old rig >"rusted but trusted". But not even being able to remove the rusted tank >because of excessive, advanced rust (because of failed spot welds on the >nuts holding the strap bolts) is a major PITA. That's what finally made >me retire the old bugger last year... I would not want to pull my tank--though who knows, maybe those bolts are ok. The thing was treated with that slimey Canadian rust preventing goo every other year by the PO. If it reached, there is no rust there... >Sooo, if it's filled up to the top and there is some pressure in the >tank (as when you've just filled up to the brim and drove back home less >that a mile or so from your house, to provide a little air space that >can expand as the temperature of the fuel in the tank increases from >ground (around 55F) to ambient (about 70F in your location at the >present time, right?)), ANY pinhole leak in the line will show as a drip >within a few hours! And any others on the tank itself also, BTW! (If the >level HAS dropped and the there is no visible leak, suspect a leak at >the fuel sender, located right in the middle of the tank; an access >cover is provided for it under the carpet.) See above. WHen I primed today I got lots of air--foam almost. When I opened the tank fill to place the fuel that I bled out back in, it gave an audible hiss indicating that it must be air tight. SIGH Maybe I will venture out to see if it quits. I need to use the thing. I can't have it sitting unrunning, but haven't got someone to hand it to to fix it. Thanks for your advice. Dave From: Mike Graham To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: [DTLC] POSible fix--was continued woes--was pas de start Date sent: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 17:33:33 -0400 Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net On Sun, 22 Aug 1999, Susan and/or David Dannenberg wrote: > Primed it this AM. Started ok but not great this PM. Took it for a half > mile or so drive. Stopped 15 or so minutes. Restarted perfect. Idled > awhile. Shut it down. Decided to crawl underneath in back. Saw nothing > extraordinary. Then stood up and as I looked down, noticed wet spot on > ground in front of rear right tire. Looked at water seperater. "Aha" says I. > "There's the problem--or at any rate A problem" Tightened the nut a tiny bit > (it felt pretty tight, but then a 10mm wrench is pretty small) and wiped it > down with a rag (was also wet up top :O ). Drove it home. So far pas de leaky. > We'll see if it drips overnight and if she starts nice in the AM. > Those water seperators rust through like they were designed to do it. The sending unit on top might not be tight. Diesel can wick a ways, so you can't be sure where it's leaking, but they usually leak through pinholes in the bottom, and at the seam joining the top and bottom halves. My first water seperator repair was just smushing RTV into the holes. The repair lasted a surprisingly long time. Far better is to braze the unit. Best is to pull it off, throw it away, seal the lines, and put a decent seperator under the hood. -- Mike Graham, mikegraham at sprint dot ca Caledon, Ontario, Canada (just NW of Toronto). Raiser of animals. Weldor of metals. Driver of off-road vehicles. Writer of FAQs. Keeper of the faith, and all around okay guy. < homepage currently off-line due to change of ISP; back soon > Date sent: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 20:56:42 -0400 To: dtlc@helios.net From: Susan and/or David Dannenberg Subject: Re: [DTLC] POSible fix--was continued woes--was pas de start Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net > Those water seperators rust through like they were designed to do it. >The sending unit on top might not be tight. Diesel can wick a ways, so >you can't be sure where it's leaking, but they usually leak through >pinholes in the bottom, and at the seam joining the top and bottom halves. > My first water seperator repair was just smushing RTV into the holes. >The repair lasted a surprisingly long time. Far better is to braze the >unit. Best is to pull it off, throw it away, seal the lines, and put a >decent seperator under the hood. I'm there! Well, part way there. It must have been wicking up the sending unit I think. Lotsa' rust on it. POS--only lasted 13 years. Dave From: Mike Graham To: dtlc@helios.net Subject: Re: [DTLC] POSible fix--was continued woes--was pas de start Date sent: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 21:14:09 -0400 Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net On Sun, 22 Aug 1999, Susan and/or David Dannenberg wrote: > I'm there! Well, part way there. It must have been wicking up the sending unit > I think. Lotsa' rust on it. POS--only lasted 13 years. Well, mine lasted about 18 years, but I'm not sure how long it had been dripping before I bought it ("Just needs a new o-ring!" the guy said. I must have "sucker" written right across my forehead... but anyway...). After my amazing RTV repair finally started leaking (lasted two years) I brazed the living bejeezus out of it. I now have what amounts to a solid bronze water seperator with a thin lining of crappy, rusty steel. Looks like a marine unit. 8-) I wouldn't waste the effort again, though I *have* done it since for a friend who had already put a lot of money into his 'cruiser and needed a breather to recoup financially, so I figured it I'd do him a favor and seal his unit. His was even worse than mine had been (his was off of a BJ60) and the metal was so thin that the force of the gasses coming out of the torch blew right through the metal. That was a right prick to fix. It worked, though. That reminds me... I weld for a living, and I have lots of snazzy tools and whatnot; any 'cruiserphiles in the Toronto-ish area who need work done can let me know. If you're willing to help out, the work is free. If you want to stand there and not get dirty, then it'll cost ya. 8-) I just got a milling machine... haven't finished hooking it up yet, but it's going to be sweeeeeet. Still need a metal lathe, though. Working on it. -- Mike Graham, mikegraham at sprint dot ca Caledon, Ontario, Canada (just NW of Toronto). Raiser of animals. Weldor of metals. Driver of off-road vehicles. Writer of FAQs. Keeper of the faith, and all around okay guy. < homepage currently off-line due to change of ISP; back soon > Date sent: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 16:04:23 -0400 To: dtlc@helios.net From: Susan and/or David Dannenberg Subject: [DTLC] POSible fix--was continued woes--was pas de start Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net Primed it this AM. Started ok but not great this PM. Took it for a half mile or so drive. Stopped 15 or so minutes. Restarted perfect. Idled awhile. Shut it down. Decided to crawl underneath in back. Saw nothing extraordinary. Then stood up and as I looked down, noticed wet spot on ground in front of rear right tire. Looked at water seperater. "Aha" says I. "There's the problem--or at any rate A problem" Tightened the nut a tiny bit (it felt pretty tight, but then a 10mm wrench is pretty small) and wiped it down with a rag (was also wet up top :O ). Drove it home. So far pas de leaky. We'll see if it drips overnight and if she starts nice in the AM. Thanks all for continuing advice. David Date sent: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 14:44:37 -0500 To: dtlc@helios.net From: suedave@pond.com Subject: [DTLC] EDIC rbld Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net I have found someone willing to take a look at my EDIC. He is a starter/generator shop who builds a lot of HD units, familiar with Nippindenso, Kumatsu, etc. He is asking me for the part number for the EDIC. Does anyone out there have this? Also, any other comments welcome re: experience having an EDIC rebuilt. I at least want it bench tested to see if it is the cause of my problem. (meantime runs fine without it and there are other ways of shutting down an engine.) Thanks much. David Dannenberg From: "Ayukawa, Michael C (Mike)" To: dtlc@helios.net Copies to: suedave@pond.com Subject: RE: [DTLC] EDIC rbld Date sent: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 15:36:18 -0500 Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net > -----Original Message----- > From: suedave@pond.com [mailto:suedave@pond.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 2:45 PM > To: dtlc@helios.net > Subject: [DTLC] EDIC rbld > > I have found someone willing to take a look at my EDIC. He is a > starter/generator shop who builds a lot of HD units, familiar with > Nippindenso, Kumatsu, etc. He is asking me for the part number for > the EDIC. > > Does anyone out there have this? > > Also, any other comments welcome re: experience having an > EDIC rebuilt. > > I at least want it bench tested to see if it is the cause of my > problem. (meantime runs fine without it and there are other ways of > shutting down an engine.) > > Thanks much. > > David Dannenberg Dave, I copied this from a note from Dan Loubier(?). Mike EDIC The Nippondenso part numbers for the motor are as follows : 12 volts #162000-0310 24 volts #162000-0320 The Toyota part numbers for the motor are as follows : 12 volts #28571-56120 24 volts #28571-56130 3- FUEL CONTROL RELAY Toyota Part # are as follows : 12 volts #28590-56090 24 volts #28590-56100