To: fj55@birfield.com From: John Subject: [FJ55] Headliner Reply-To: fj55@birfield.com Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 09:44:17 -0700 Howdy! Have any of you ever installed a headliner in your Pig? How big of a job is it? Mine is in really bad shape, and it is getting hard to keep parts of it from hanging down, even with upholstry glue. I would also like to replace the original felt insulation with some hi-tech stuff; any suggestions? As if that weren't enough to do with the roof, the PO had mounted a homemade roof rack with sheet metal screws into the roof. I have about two dozen holes to weld shut and refinish before I get the new insulation and liner installed. TIA JoHn JoHn Bricker 76 FJ-55 safari grade all around Phoenix, Az. From: zippy@tomquinn.com (Thomas Quinn) To: Subject: RE: [FJ55] Headliner Reply-To: fj55@birfield.com Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 12:53:35 -0800 > Howdy! Have any of you ever installed a headliner in your Pig? How big of > a job is it? Mine is in really bad shape, and it is getting hard to keep > parts of it from hanging down, even with upholstry glue. I would also like > to replace the original felt insulation with some hi-tech stuff; any > suggestions? As if that weren't enough to do with the roof, the PO had > mounted a homemade roof rack with sheet metal screws into the roof. I have > about two dozen holes to weld shut and refinish before I get the new > insulation and liner installed. TIA JoHn I got mine from JC Whitney about 8 years ago. It took about a day to get it in. Not to hard It was just tedious fitting it under all the trim/rubber. -TomQ From: "Steve Helmreich" To: Subject: [FJ55] headliner - my story. Reply-To: fj55@birfield.com Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 21:00:37 -0800 > Subject: [FJ55] Headliner > Reply-To: fj55@birfield.com > > Howdy! Have any of you ever installed a headliner in your Pig John, When I restored my pig, I had a trim shop do the headliner. It's not an easy DIY job. The old one had several holes, and I had cut the old one in many places to do some rust repair on the roof. Here was my order of operations: Do any roofline rust repair inside and out. Then I sprayed an entire can of cold galvanizing compound into the inside of the roof (just above the rain gutters) to prevent future rust. The roof was swimming in this stuff. Then, I ran extra wires for another dome light near the rear of the truck. Then I glued all the original sound-deadening pad back into the roof. Then I removed all the grab handles, dome light, visors, rear view mirror, etc. I did this so that the upholstery shop wouldn't lose any trim or screw or bits. The upholstery shop charged me about $220+/- for the material and labor. I selected a perforated vinyl (much like FJ40 headliner without the foam backing), so that the roof would stay dry and rust-free inside. I think the old solid FJ55 factory headliners caused most of the rust problems by creating a greenhouse in the rooftop area. The water condenses, and runs down to the rain gutter, causing rust. DON'T TOSS YOUR OLD HEADLINER - as the shop will use that as a template. There's a lot of fiddling to get them to look just right. I had to remove the rear side windows and the the windshield (the rubber was shot, anyway) to allow for easy headliner install. I had the shop reinstall the windshield and I helped the guy do the rear side glass. Final note - if any roof supports are loose, glue them back with lots of liquid nails or urethane adhesive (sealer) before you do the headliner. Smack the roof with your hand or drive the truck to find these rattles. After you get the truck back, you have the unenviable task of finding the holes for the grab handles, etc. But, when all the smoke cleared, it looks nice. The $220 job I got wasn't perfect, but I shudder to think how much more they could have charged me. steve From: "Andre Shoumatoff" To: Subject: [FJ55] Roof rot question... Reply-To: fj55@birfield.com Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:35:10 -0600 Question, re very common rot in FJ55s as seen here on my rig: http://www.collegeinternetsolutions.com/cisautoweb/dtlc/fj55_3/Mustard_0052. JPG I was going to wire wheel it down to bare metal but hopefully on both sides, I have zero desire to address it again especially once it gets painted. I was thinking get to it from the inside, wire wheel both sides to bare metal, and weld some slag in and grind / smooth it down. There are about 2-3 actual holes, the rest appears to be surface rust. But if you look at it from the inside (truck sure doesn't look pretty, does it ;) : http://www.collegeinternetsolutions.com/cisautoweb/dtlc/fj55_3/Mustard_0050. JPG You'll see a good amount of the inside upper part blocks access to the roof metal. So I was thinking grind that out, just above the holes where the headliner plugs in. Then when the headliner is back in place it should not look too bad? Has anyone out there found a good solution to this, I'm aware it's a very common problem area for 55s, unfortunately. Anyone know why (probably a metal seam in there that attracts moisture?). I'd like to take care of it once and get it over with.... Andre Land Cruiser Diesel Repower Site http://www.cisautoweb.com/dtlc From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" To: fj55@birfield.com, landcruisers@birfield.com Subject: [FJ55] Re: Roof rot question... Reply-To: fj55@birfield.com Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 03:19:57 +0200 On 27 Jul 2003 at 18:35, Andre Shoumatoff wrote: > Question, re very common rot in FJ55s as seen here on my rig: > http://www.collegeinternetsolutions.com/cisautoweb/dtlc/fj55_3/Mustard_0052.JPG I beter edit that space out, between . and JPG....;)) > I was going to wire wheel it down to bare metal but hopefully on both > sides, I have zero desire to address it again especially once it gets > painted. I was thinking get to it from the inside, wire wheel both > sides to bare metal, and weld some slag in and grind / smooth it down. > There are about 2-3 actual holes, the rest appears to be surface > rust. But if you look at it from the inside (truck sure doesn't look > pretty, does it ;) : > http://www.collegeinternetsolutions.com/cisautoweb/dtlc/fj55_3/Mustard_0050.JPG > > You'll see a good amount of the inside upper part blocks access to the > roof metal. So I was thinking grind that out, just above the holes > where the headliner plugs in. Then when the headliner is back in > place it should not look too bad? Might not look bad, but I don't believe you keep rust at bay this way in the long run. > Has anyone out there found a good solution to this, I'm aware it's a > very common problem area for 55s, unfortunately. Anyone know why > (probably a metal seam in there that attracts moisture?). I'd like to > take care of it once and get it over with.... AFAIK it's the waterproof headliner, which still allows moisture to get trapped under, as air expands and contracts with temperature....condensation on the cold metal will then do the rest....none of that moisture will get out again completely ever (anyone who will soon rip a headliner open might want to stick a moisture-tester in the felt, to see how moist it is) All other Cruisers (non-wagon?) of that era and earlier had a fiber roof, not metal.... As for the correct cure; I can only tell you what a German owner did, owning a restoration/body shop himself: he cut the roof off, removed all cross-bars from the roof, sanded it all down to bare metal, and repainted & rewelded the whole shebang back together. The sad thing is that it wasn't even really necessary, as this particular 55 will now spend the rest of it's life on display/museum location, last to be at Toyota Japan. Total netto cost, for the entire 55, without profit: US$30k. Could have have had my roof, if he asked....;)) http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/FJ55_Dutch -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] Subject: Re: [FJ55] Roof rot question... From: Todd Kaderabek To: 55 Reply-To: fj55@birfield.com Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 08:46:50 -0400 > Question, re very common rot in FJ55s as seen here on my rig: > http://www.collegeinternetsolutions.com/cisautoweb/dtlc/fj55_3/Mustard_0052. > JPG > > I was going to wire wheel it down to bare metal but hopefully on both sides, > I have zero desire to address it again especially once it gets painted. I > was thinking get to it from the inside, wire wheel both sides to bare metal, > and weld some slag in and grind / smooth it down. There are about 2-3 > actual holes, the rest appears to be surface rust. But if you look at it > from the inside (truck sure doesn't look pretty, does it ;) : > http://www.collegeinternetsolutions.com/cisautoweb/dtlc/fj55_3/Mustard_0050. > JPG > > You'll see a good amount of the inside upper part blocks access to the roof > metal. So I was thinking grind that out, just above the holes where the > headliner plugs in. Then when the headliner is back in place it should not > look too bad? Wire wheel/grind out what you can, and treat it with POR. What you can't get at with the grinder, slather with POR. It doesn't look terrible though. I think Pete McPherson filled his with Great Stuff before he put the headliner back on to sound proofs things a little. TJK From: robert schenker Subject: Re: [FJ55] Roof rot question... To: fj55@birfield.com Reply-To: fj55@birfield.com Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 10:49:49 -0700 >Question, re very common rot in FJ55s as seen here on my rig: >http://www.collegeinternetsolutions.com/cisautoweb/dtlc/fj55_3/Mustard_0052. >JPG > >I was going to wire wheel it down to bare metal but hopefully on both sides, >I have zero desire to address it again especially once it gets painted. I >was thinking get to it from the inside, wire wheel both sides to bare metal, >and weld some slag in and grind / smooth it down. There are about 2-3 >actual holes, the rest appears to be surface rust. But if you look at it >from the inside (truck sure doesn't look pretty, does it ;) : >http://www.collegeinternetsolutions.com/cisautoweb/dtlc/fj55_3/Mustard_0050. >JPG > >You'll see a good amount of the inside upper part blocks access to the roof >metal. So I was thinking grind that out, just above the holes where the >headliner plugs in. Then when the headliner is back in place it should not >look too bad? > >Has anyone out there found a good solution to this, I'm aware it's a very >common problem area for 55s, unfortunately. Anyone know why (probably a >metal seam in there that attracts moisture?). I'd like to take care of it >once and get it over with.... > >Andre Mine is totally rotten. So was the last 55 I had. The culprit is the insulation padding glued to the roof underneath the headliner. It hold moisture since it's felt made from recycled rags. Rip out the headliner, strip out all of the insulation. Then if you clean up everything and coat it with POR15 (after patching the holes) you should be ok. Use some sort of foam padding that doesn't hold moisture from in-car condensation when redoing the headliner. You will probably find that even if there are only a few holes on the outside, there is probably a lot of serious rust on the inside. I'm working up the energy to deal with mine and I'm planning to clean up the slot between the outer and inner roof just above the rain gutter area and then slip in some sheet stock and try welding it in place from the outside where the holes are--I'll drill more to get a solid attachment. Since I'm not doing a restoration, just a functional fix, I'll just finish it all off with some bondo. From: "Jeff Zepp" To: Subject: Re: [LCML] Re: Roof rot question... Reply-To: landcruisers@birfield.com Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:57:51 -0600 Fellow lister Steve Helmreich of Colorado Springs believes he found the cause and the cure. I am inclined to agree as his theory and explanation makes sense. Willem-Jan wrote: >AFAIK it's the waterproof headliner, which still allows moisture to >get trapped under, as air expands and contracts with >temperature....condensation on the cold metal will then do the >rest....none of that moisture will get out again completely ever >As for the correct cure; I can only tell you what a German owner did, >owning a restoration/body shop himself: he cut the roof off, removed >all cross-bars from the roof, sanded it all down to bare metal, and >repainted & rewelded the whole shebang back together. >The sad thing is that it wasn't even really necessary, as this >particular 55 will now spend the rest of it's life on display/museum >location, last to be at Toyota Japan. >Total netto cost, for the entire 55, without profit: US$30k. Steve had a similarly inexpensive fix that required no cutting, other than headliner, which he replaced with new. Steve's pig was for sale recently, dunno if he sold it. He showed me how he did it, and his theory on why pig roofs rot and why his fix will prevent that. Steve, care to elaborate? Jeff Zepp Kittredge CO USA 1971 (Moab Tested!) & 1976 (Under Construction) FJ40s Rising Sun 4WD Club/TLCA #4063 http://members.aol.com/jeffzepp From: "Helmreich, Steve" To: Subject: [LCML] pig roof rust - FJ55 - my theory... Reply-To: landcruisers@birfield.com Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 09:48:49 -0500 FJ55 Roof rust - my theory... I believe it is caused by the solid moisture-barrier headliner material, and the hollow 'D' pillars that lead right down into the rear quarter panels by the taillights. The 'C' and 'B' pillars probably contribute moisture, too. As you drive around in wet climates, the moisture inside the rear qtr. panels rises up into the roof area through all the pillars. Once inside the roof, the headliner and metal form a pocket with no ventilation. The water condenses on the roof metal during temperature swings, runs down the curved profile, and ends up on the inside of the rain gutter area. The roof insulation (shredded rags) helps promote rust and holds water. My roof had rust, but not as a bad as most. I had a shop weld in a steel panel from the inside, tucked inside the inside roof lip (the part to which the grab handles are screwed), and then weld the existing roof metal to that panel. This reinforced the area to properly support a small amount of filler. I sprayed the backside of this area with an entire can of cold-galvanize compound, until it was running out. There is no wonderful and perfect way to fix any '55 roof. During the body work phase, I had a complete rust-free '71 pig roof (attached to a parts truck pig), and considered a roofectomy (swap), but the cost was immediatly prohibitive. You'd likely have to bribe a hot-rod shop that did chop tops to do this work. Preserving the integrity of the body would require skill and care - and yet more $$$. ----------------------------------------------------------- Steve Helmreich Colo Springs, CO From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" To: landcruisers@birfield.com, fj55@birfield.com Subject: [LCML] Re: pig roof rust - FJ55 - my theory... Reply-To: landcruisers@birfield.com Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 04:14:47 +0200 On 28 Jul 2003 at 9:48, Helmreich, Steve wrote: > FJ55 Roof rust - my theory... I believe it is caused by the solid > moisture-barrier headliner material, and the hollow 'D' pillars that > lead right down into the rear quarter panels by the taillights. The > 'C' and 'B' pillars probably contribute moisture, too. As you drive > around in wet climates, the moisture inside the rear qtr. panels rises > up into the roof area through all the pillars. Once inside the roof, > the headliner and metal form a pocket with no ventilation. The water > condenses on the roof metal during temperature swings, runs down the > curved profile, and ends up on the inside of the rain gutter area. > The roof insulation (shredded rags) helps promote rust and holds > water. > > My roof had rust, but not as a bad as most. I had a shop weld in a > steel panel from the inside, tucked inside the inside roof lip (the > part to which the grab handles are screwed), and then weld the > existing roof metal to that panel. This reinforced the area to > properly support a small amount of filler. I sprayed the backside of > this area with an entire can of cold-galvanize compound, until it was > running out. > > There is no wonderful and perfect way to fix any '55 roof. During the > body work phase, I had a complete rust-free '71 pig roof (attached to > a parts truck pig), and considered a roofectomy (swap), but the cost > was immediatly prohibitive. You'd likely have to bribe a hot-rod shop > that did chop tops to do this work. Preserving the integrity of the > body would require skill and care - and yet more $$$. While adding your message to an existing file about headliners, I found your previous message from earlier this year too, adding a few more interesting details: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From: "Steve Helmreich" To: Subject: [FJ55] headliner - my story. Reply-To: fj55@birfield.com Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 21:00:37 -0800 > Subject: [FJ55] Headliner > Reply-To: fj55@birfield.com > > Howdy! Have any of you ever installed a headliner in your Pig John, When I restored my pig, I had a trim shop do the headliner. It's not an easy DIY job. The old one had several holes, and I had cut the old one in many places to do some rust repair on the roof. Here was my order of operations: Do any roofline rust repair inside and out. Then I sprayed an entire can of cold galvanizing compound into the inside of the roof (just above the rain gutters) to prevent future rust. The roof was swimming in this stuff. Then, I ran extra wires for another dome light near the rear of the truck. Then I glued all the original sound-deadening pad back into the roof. Then I removed all the grab handles, dome light, visors, rear view mirror, etc. I did this so that the upholstery shop wouldn't lose any trim or screw or bits. The upholstery shop charged me about $220+/- for the material and labor. I selected a perforated vinyl (much like FJ40 headliner without the foam backing), so that the roof would stay dry and rust- free inside. I think the old solid FJ55 factory headliners caused most of the rust problems by creating a greenhouse in the rooftop area. The water condenses, and runs down to the rain gutter, causing rust. DON'T TOSS YOUR OLD HEADLINER - as the shop will use that as a template. There's a lot of fiddling to get them to look just right. I had to remove the rear side windows and the the windshield (the rubber was shot, anyway) to allow for easy headliner install. I had the shop reinstall the windshield and I helped the guy do the rear side glass. Final note - if any roof supports are loose, glue them back with lots of liquid nails or urethane adhesive (sealer) before you do the headliner. Smack the roof with your hand or drive the truck to find these rattles. After you get the truck back, you have the unenviable task of finding the holes for the grab handles, etc. But, when all the smoke cleared, it looks nice. The $220 job I got wasn't perfect, but I shudder to think how much more they could have charged me. steve xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Added question: couldn't you just as well laminate a 'body-filler- back' on the inside, from epoxy/fiber, instead of metal? Getting that curve right in metal only ads to the complexity/labor, not? Or only when very rotten, to get the curve in there in the first place?....:)) Also, trying to falsify your theory, and confirming mine: shouldn't the quarter panels then not be rusted more than the roof? Or only when plugged with crap/mud? My roof is hell, on the sides (but not just at pillar-level), but both my wheel-wells and quarter panel are remarkably rustfree (so is the entire underside, with the exeption of the rear-most body mount). OTOH, I did see a frightening amount of inside/surface(?) rust on Hunter Arend's topless&bobbed FJ55....look carefully in the cut-open sections, in particular C and D pillar: http://www.jkcustoms.com/Pig%20Farm.htm -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] From: "Bryan Marsh" To: fj55@birfield.com Subject: [FJ55] Utah and roof rot Reply-To: fj55@birfield.com Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 14:32:52 -0600 >From: "Kaleb Galbraith" " kaleb@asteriskgraphics.com [1] > It's good to know a few people are around here in Utah. > Hey Bryan when you coming back to work on the pig??? > I expect to be in Utah a couple of times this summer but not much time to > devote to the cruiser - I have to get a job and pass the bar exam (OR and UT). I have had three FJ55's so far and not one has had roof rot. Maybe I'm really lucky. THe '76 I sold had a shredded liner, so maybe that is what saved it. I replaced it with, please don't gag, marine carpet. I used the orginal bows to hold it up, so they are exposed, but it looked pretty good once I tucked all the edges into the moldings and trim. And the type of carpet I got will breath like crazy and not absorb any water.