12v&24v.htm
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Why running 12 Volt equipment on a 24 Volt system is a VBTTD (Very Bad Thing To Do (tm))
To: Offroad@off-road.com
From: Willem-Jan Markerink
Date sent: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 21:45:54 +0000
Subject: Can they be so dumb?
Send reply to: Offroad@off-road.com
Dear gang,
With horror did I read page 52, top section, of Petersen's 4Wheel &
Offroad, issue April 1997.
To run 12V accessories, including *winch* [gasp], from a 24V system,
they advice to hook a complete fuse box to the grounded battery.
"You can get setups like this from manufacturers such as Painless
Wiring and Ron Francis's Wire Works."
What is it with these guys?!?
Do they hold shares in a battery manufacturer?!?
This is BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!
Nissan once even had to do a recall on their 24V Patrols, because
some dipswitch at HQ's decided that the 12V radio didn't need a converter,
but could be plugged straight from one battery. Cost them big bucks
in replaced batteries.
Writers of this article have to do pennance by drinking 10cc of
battery acid, while being hammered with an genuine OEM Toyota 24V
alternator/vacuum pump combo (not that there exists any non-genuine
non-OEM combo....8-)).
Willem (such stupidity should be forbidden) Jan
--
Bye,
_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
_/ _/ illem _/ _/ an _/ _/ _/ arkerink
_/_/_/
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
(w.j.markerink@a1.nl)
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
To: Offroad@off-road.com
From: Daniel Houlton
Subject: Re: Can they be so dumb?
Date sent: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 07:09:21 -0700 (MST)
Organization: McDonnell Douglas Helicopter
Send reply to: Offroad@off-road.com
Willem-Jan Markerink wrote:
>
> Dear gang,
>
> With horror did I read page 52, top section, of Petersen's 4Wheel &
> Offroad, issue April 1997.
> To run 12V accessories, including *winch* , from a 24V system,
> they advice to hook a complete fuse box to the grounded battery.
> "You can get setups like this from manufacturers such as Painless
> Wiring and Ron Francis's Wire Works."
So what's the problem? Are you saying that these fuse boxes do NOT
provide 12V or what?
>
> What is it with these guys?!?
> Do they hold shares in a battery manufacturer?!?
> This is BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!
Again, what's so bad about it? I feel like I'm missing something
obvious here.
>
> Nissan once even had to do a recall on their 24V Patrols, because
> some dipswitch at HQ's decided that the 12V radio didn't need a converter,
> but could be plugged straight from one battery. Cost them big bucks
> in replaced batteries.
So Nissan's problem was hooking a 12V accessory to a 24V source. Sounds
like what the fuse box above is trying to solve.
Not a flame, I just don't understand what the problem is.
--Dan
To: Offroad@off-road.com
From: Willem-Jan Markerink
Date sent: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 23:36:06 +0000
Subject: Re: Can they be so dumb?
Send reply to: Offroad@off-road.com
On 22 Apr 97 at 7:09, Daniel Houlton wrote:
> Willem-Jan Markerink wrote:
> >
> > Dear gang,
> >
> > With horror did I read page 52, top section, of Petersen's 4Wheel &
> > Offroad, issue April 1997.
> > To run 12V accessories, including *winch* , from a 24V system,
> > they advice to hook a complete fuse box to the grounded battery.
> > "You can get setups like this from manufacturers such as Painless
> > Wiring and Ron Francis's Wire Works."
>
> So what's the problem? Are you saying that these fuse boxes do NOT
> provide 12V or what?
Nothing wrong with the output side....nice, clean 12V....
> >
> > What is it with these guys?!?
> > Do they hold shares in a battery manufacturer?!?
> > This is BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!
>
> Again, what's so bad about it? I feel like I'm missing something
> obvious here.
Try to imagine charging two batteries in series, where one is empty,
the other full. This is NOT the same as charging two batteries in
parallel! The empty one will never get full, and the full one will be
overcharged in a worst case scenario (haven't seen the latter happen, but
see below).
> >
> > Nissan once even had to do a recall on their 24V Patrols, because
> > some dipswitch at HQ's decided that the 12V radio didn't need a converter, but
> > could be plugged straight from one battery. Cost them big bucks in replaced
> > batteries.
>
> So Nissan's problem was hooking a 12V accessory to a 24V source. Sounds
> like what the fuse box above is trying to solve.
Nissan did the same as what is described in this article: run 12V
from one single battery. The fuse box is just added convenience, but
basic horror stays the same.
> Not a flame, I just don't understand what the problem is.
The problem is that the problem is not obvious right away. It takes a
few batteries before you realize that you have done a Bad Thing (tm).
The one you replace will always be the 12V source btw. Automotive
batteries don't like being less than 100% charged most of the time,
not does the other one like being overcharged (but that effect seems
less serious, probably because the full battery voltage has more
control over the charging system than the empty one.
Running a 12V winch from a 24V system....fools!
Every good electrics shop in Europe will flogg you with heavy gauge
wiring if you suggest such thing!
--
Bye,
_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
_/ _/ illem _/ _/ an _/ _/ _/ arkerink
_/_/_/
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
(w.j.markerink@a1.nl)
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
To: Offroad@off-road.com
Date sent: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 13:17:06 -0800
From: jbarron@uvic.ca (John Barron & Lori Hryniuk)
Subject: Can they be so dumb?
Send reply to: Offroad@off-road.com
>> Again, what's so bad about it? I feel like I'm missing something
>> obvious here.
>
>Try to imagine charging two batteries in series, where one is empty,
>the other full. This is NOT the same as charging two batteries in
>parallel! The empty one will never get full, and the full one will be
>overcharged in a worst case scenario (haven't seen the latter happen, but
>see below).
I've seen it happen more than once. One goes dead and the other explodes
(eventually) with quite a loud bang acid everywhere... very ugly.
j.
jbarron@uvic.ca
www.off-road.com/~irc
To: Offroad@off-road.com
Date sent: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 09:43:56 -0800
From: jbarron@uvic.ca (John Barron & Lori Hryniuk)
Subject: Can they be so dumb?
Send reply to: Offroad@off-road.com
Willem;
I too read the article in Petersen's and was also horrified. These guys are
out to lunch as far as this is concerened.
Not too soon after a buddy of mine said that he could tell me a way that I
could run as many 12V goodies on my 24V LC as I wanted... I told him that
if he could do that then he was a better man than I. He basically quoted a
bunch of BS that sounded like it came right from Petersen's. I corrected
him and told him about charging resistance and voltage and a whole bunch of
other stuff that he didn't know about... He still thinks that you can do it
though.
Oh, well.
>With horror did I read page 52, top section, of Petersen's 4Wheel &
>Offroad, issue April 1997.
>To run 12V accessories, including *winch* , from a 24V system,
>they advice to hook a complete fuse box to the grounded battery.
>"You can get setups like this from manufacturers such as Painless
>Wiring and Ron Francis's Wire Works."
>
>What is it with these guys?!?
>Do they hold shares in a battery manufacturer?!?
>This is BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!
snip...
>Willem (such stupidity should be forbidden) Jan
I think not.
j.
jbarron@uvic.ca
www.off-road.com/~irc
To: Offroad@off-road.com
From: Willem-Jan Markerink
Date sent: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 23:36:07 +0000
Subject: Re: Can they be so dumb?
Send reply to: Offroad@off-road.com
On 22 Apr 97 at 9:43, John Barron & Lori Hryniuk wrote:
> >Willem (such stupidity should be forbidden) Jan
>
> I think not.
A strong believer in Darwin's theories, eh?....;-))
Or do you hold shares in a battery brand too?....8-))
--
Bye,
_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
_/ _/ illem _/ _/ an _/ _/ _/ arkerink
_/_/_/
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
(w.j.markerink@a1.nl)
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
To: Offroad@off-road.com
Date sent: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 13:21:40 -0800
From: jbarron@uvic.ca (John Barron & Lori Hryniuk)
Subject: Can they be so dumb?
Send reply to: Offroad@off-road.com
>A strong believer in Darwin's theories, eh?....;-))
>
>Or do you hold shares in a battery brand too?....8-))
No, it makes for excitement.
I have a friend who used to run a rather excessive stereo from on battery,
*and* a winch... He's the guy who blew up his batteries...uh, more than
once, too.
BTW, I studied biology in University. Darwin's ideas are very applicable in
the real world...but modern medecine and lawyers seem to intervene all too
often.
j.
jbarron@uvic.ca
www.off-road.com/~irc
To: Offroad@off-road.com
Subject: Re: Can they be so dumb?
From: mikejeep@juno.com (Hilary M Kunz)
Date sent: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:39:33 EDT
Send reply to: Offroad@off-road.com
Ok guys, I guess I missed it too.
The 24 volt load taps off the 24v B+.
The 12 volt load taps off the 12v B+.
Are we talking about the variation in current draw between the two
batteries? Since they are in series they won't be back feeding each
other as in a parallel system. I work in electronics, not electrical
systems, and we often tap two different voltages off the same line,
although with semiconductors or resistors between the taps as opposed to
electro chemical storage devices (batteries). Can someone enlighten me?
Willem? John?
Mike Kunz
81 CJ-5, 33-12.50 Yokohama Mud Diggers, 5" lift, shackle reverse,
355 ci Chevy, SM420, 4.11:1, 1000 RTI (20 degree ramp), 869 RTI
(23 degree ramp)
US Navy, San Diego 4 Wheelers, CA4WDC, BRC, Tread Lightly!
Visit the San Diego 4 Wheelers webpage:
http://home.earthlink.net/~bobstickney/index.html
Going downhill is easy, gravity sucks!!!!
To: Offroad@off-road.com
From: mike@headwaters.com
Date sent: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 23:01:44 +0000
Subject: Re: Can they be so dumb?
Send reply to: Offroad@off-road.com
> other as in a parallel system. I work in electronics, not electrical
> systems, and we often tap two different voltages off the same line,
> although with semiconductors or resistors between the taps as opposed to
> electro chemical storage devices (batteries). Can someone enlighten me?
In electronics it's common to tap at different points, because you
can be reasonably certain of what the power will be due to voltage
drop of .6v per diode or whatever the heck it is. However, this is
not the same thing, because what you're talking about is just taking
advantage of voltage drop *after* the source. We're talking about
taking a feed from *the middle* of the source. Your electronic item
might have a power supply, but the actual power source is at one
point. It's a transformer/rectifier, or a single package of
batteries. You never take a feed from *inside* the source.
/---------------------------------------------------/
Mike Graham, TLCA #5047 Ontario, Canada
,
1981 BJ42 24V Diesel Land Cruiser "The Chew Toy"
1988.5 Suzuki Samurai JX "Super Smurf"
Find the ORDFAQ at
Diesel Technical LandCruiser list -
To: Offroad@off-road.com
Date sent: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:37:57 -0600
From: Ron Miller
Subject: Re: Offroad Digest V5 #359
Send reply to: Offroad@off-road.com
Re: 24V and 12V accessories
>
> Again, what's so bad about it? I feel like I'm missing something
> obvious here.
>
> Not a flame, I just don't understand what the problem is.
>
> - --Dan
To put it simply:
Every amp that is drawn off the 'downstream' battery has to come THRU
the upstream battery. This will dramatically overcharge the upstream
battery if you're feeding much current from the 'downstream' 12V battery.
Essentially, you'll smoke the upstream battery with serious overcharge.
I can see picking off some tiny loads like a CB that is mostly on receive
but not much more.
I am installing a DC-DC converter in my unimog to get 12V from 24V.
It can cover up to about 16 A though they are available in higher
ratings. Not for a winch though!
Ron Miller
(electrical engineer)
To: Offroad@off-road.com
From: Willem-Jan Markerink
Date sent: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:48:58 +0000
Subject: Re: Can they be so dumb?
Send reply to: Offroad@off-road.com
On 22 Apr 97 at 16:37, Ron Miller wrote:
> I can see picking off some tiny loads like a CB that is mostly on receive
> but not much more.
After years of struggling with trashed batteries on our 24volt
HJ-60, I have snipped each and every straight 12V wire that came on
the truck when we bought it. I too thought that radio and electric
antenna wouldn't do much harm, but even a tiny alarm surge will be
detrimental for its lifespan. The 12V source will be the one you are
replacing the most....
--
Bye,
_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
_/ _/ illem _/ _/ an _/ _/ _/ arkerink
_/_/_/
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
(w.j.markerink@a1.nl)
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
To: Offroad@off-road.com
Date sent: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:13:56 -0600
From: Ron Miller
Subject: Re: Offroad Digest V5 #362
Send reply to: Offroad@off-road.com
Re: 24V/12V
I suppose that practice and theory can sometimes contradict each other.
Undercharging is bad for batteries so the low side battery is
also being abused. Pick your favorite abuse I guess.
>
> Btw, for the second time in a few weeks, I heard the note that
> cooking the battery once a year to get rid of the capacity-decreasing
> sulfate (sp?) buildup on the lead plates. I know that solitary solar
> systems have a circuit to cycle the battery a few times each year,
> but this sulfate theory is rather new to me.
>
>
>
> [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
This is true. There is sulfation and then there is sulfation.
Some forms of sulfation can be scrubbed off by a good hard charge.
Sea story: When I was a nuclear submariner, our ship's battery tested
at 70% capacity. It was fixed by 5 successive full-cycle discharge
and 'equalizing' charge cycles. Came back to 107% capacity.
An equalizing charge was a high-rate gas-generating charge.
Ron Miller
To: Offroad@off-road.com
Date sent: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:43:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David A. Nedved"
Subject: 12V winches on 24V systems and visa-versa...
Send reply to: Offroad@off-road.com
To whoever started the 12/24 thread:
Just a dumb question here, but if you have a 24V system, why would you
want a 12V winch anyway? 24V winches draw less current, and are in
general more efficient, right?
In fact, I have been thinking about ways of pulling 24V off of a
dual-optima (in parallel) system for a winch myself. If the alternator is
12V, then charging two unevenly charged batteries in parallel should work
just fine, right? It seems to me that in order to use 24V off of a
parallel system, you'd have to use a solenoid to take them out of
parallel, and put them in series for awhile when you're using 24V (use the
same solenoid as for the winch?) during which time the batteries would be
unevenly drained by 12V stuff (you could try to put each headlight on a
separate battery, blah blah blah, but this would require running a second
ground for one of the batteries...) A super-MONDO diode would do the
trick, and allow you to pull both voltages at once, but a several hundred
amp diode wouldn't fit under the hood (if they even exist) would it? Is
there a better solution? I believe there are vehicles which do something
similar to this for a 24V starter, and the rest of the system is 12V,
right?
David
--
David A. Nedved -- KE4QQP Computer & Network Services
Unix System Administrator Riggs 10
Advanced Systems Group College of Engineering & Sciences
864 / 656 - 1230 Clemson University
http://www.eng.clemson.edu/~dnedved Clemson, SC 29634
To: Offroad@off-road.com
Date sent: Wed, 23 Apr 97 13:53:34 EST
From: "SandJC"
Subject: Re: 12V winches on 24V systems and visa-versa...
Send reply to: Offroad@off-road.com
In fact, I have been thinking about ways of pulling 24V off of a
dual-optima (in parallel) system for a winch myself.
I've thought about this too. If you have a 12V dual battery system. I
see no reason you couldn't have a system of relays that would remove
one battery and splice it in series with the winch power. During
winching only one battery would get alternator assistance, but that
shouldn't hurt anything. If this system is linked right to the winch
control then the second battery would go back in parallel whenever the
winch is not running, and so would be hooked up to the charging
system.
This system would need to be designed to that the relays are sequences
correctly though...you wouldn't want the "parallel" relays to close
before the "series" relays had opened! Some simple relay logic should
handle this...
Another idea, if you want a full 12V system as well as a full 24V one,
is to have two batteries in series, each with it's own alternator and
voltage regulator. One of these charging systems would have to have
an isolated ground, but that shouldn't be too hard.
This way you should be able to draw all the 12V and 24V power you want
without messing up the batteries.
Joe Sand
To: Offroad@off-road.com
From: Willem-Jan Markerink
Date sent: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:32:33 +0000
Subject: Re: 12V winches on 24V systems and visa-versa...
Send reply to: Offroad@off-road.com
On 23 Apr 97 at 12:43, David A. Nedved wrote:
> To whoever started the 12/24 thread:
>
> Just a dumb question here, but if you have a 24V system, why would you
> want a 12V winch anyway? 24V winches draw less current, and are in
> general more efficient, right?
Yes Sir, another serious goof in that article, though probably triggered by
the abundance of used 12V vs lack of 24V stuff.
Several weeks ago I posted some data on the Warn 8274, and there were
staggering differences between 12V and 24V, even up to the point that
the 24V had almost a double line speed under full load compared to the
12V, at significantly less than 50% amperes. So yes, 24V is a very
sound thing to consider.
> In fact, I have been thinking about ways of pulling 24V off of a
> dual-optima (in parallel) system for a winch myself. If the alternator is
> 12V, then charging two unevenly charged batteries in parallel should work
> just fine, right?
Yep, leveling a parallel 12V set works okay.
The only real life problem with a second battery set is a voltage
drop over the often used diode to the second battery, when this
battery is used for accessories in key-off position. Best solution
is a switching relay without voltage drop.
> It seems to me that in order to use 24V off of a
> parallel system, you'd have to use a solenoid to take them out of
> parallel, and put them in series for awhile when you're using 24V (use the
> same solenoid as for the winch?) during which time the batteries would be
> unevenly drained by 12V stuff (you could try to put each headlight on a
> separate battery, blah blah blah, but this would require running a second
> ground for one of the batteries...) A super-MONDO diode would do the
> trick, and allow you to pull both voltages at once, but a several hundred
> amp diode wouldn't fit under the hood (if they even exist) would it? Is
> there a better solution? I believe there are vehicles which do something
> similar to this for a 24V starter, and the rest of the system is 12V,
> right?
Yep, interesting enough, this is to what Toyota did with the
starting system of heavy duty diesels after 11/89. Start motor is
24V, alternator and all other accessories are 12V.
[I have used the description Cold Spec diesels before, but after I
have laid my eyes on the Holy Grail of Diesel literature, the
Nippondenso Nozzle Catalog, I have to reconsider that. Although we
have a 24V system, we don't have the official Cold Spec fuelpump nor
nozzle (though our 2H engine is the *only* one ever to result in
different nozzles for normal vs cold spec; with all other Toy engines
the only difference between normal and cold spec is in the fuelpump,
not in nozzle type.) ]
Though this mixed system only works because the start motor is only
used briefly, during which period charging is not an issue.
And although it surely was an attempt to prevent all the straight-12V
tapping horror in previous 24V models, the confusion is brain
cracking once you get to the point of to which battery one should
hook the winch, and even more confusing: which one to use for
jump-starting? (not to mention: do I feed it with 12V to each battery
(no, = short when starting), or 24V to both (no, = short when engine
running)? In a worst case scenario, you need two different 12V vehicles
to jump start it....such is life....8-))
Btw, as we had the injectors of our HJ-60 overhauled at a Bosch
diesel service station (185,000km, and indeed worn enough to demand
new nozzles, though not serious enough that it would have required
the same at say 100,000km (in contrast to reports from down under,
might be related to fuel quality): these Bosch service stations also
take care of rebuilding about any kind of alternator.
Also being truck specialists, these were the kind of experts I
needed for this bugging 12V-tapping question: *what* exactly causes
this nightmare of battery failures if you run 12V straight from one
battery in a 24V system?
I have to admit I was pretty convinced about my theory that the
low-side 12V-source is always the trashed one, but the argument that
the high side battery is being cooked did sound plausible. Took some
time to get to the bottom of it, but it is indeed the low-side
12V-source that gets neglected by the charging system, *not* the
high-side one being cooked. Related is the number 1 reason
for preliminary battery failure: most charging systems won't be able
to fill a battery 100% in any decent amount of time during slow-traffic
winter periods. A successive cranking operation at say 90% capacity
will then cause more harm than one at 100%. Combine this with the
fact that the low-side 12V-source is unlikely to recover in *any*
amount of time, and the horror is there.
I asked about the high-side cooking theory, but according to these
guys this was the most unlikely scenario: the charging voltage to
the batteries is a steady 13.8V, while the required amperage is
controlled by the batteries themselves (I guess this is a
resistance-varying kindof thing, right?). But since the amps have to
go *through* both batteries, even only one can set the pace, and it is the
high-side (full) one setting this pace of juice, ignoring the drained
one.
I somehow feel that this neglecting theory makes even minor drains
more detrimental to battery life than the cooking theory. The cooking
theory levels out over time, the neglecting theory does not. Once low
it stays low, and doesn't really come back to 100% in most of the
cases.
Btw, for the second time in a few weeks, I heard the note that
cooking the battery once a year to get rid of the capacity-decreasing
sulfate (sp?) buildup on the lead plates. I know that solitary solar
systems have a circuit to cycle the battery a few times each year,
but this sulfate theory is rather new to me.
--
Bye,
_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
_/ _/ illem _/ _/ an _/ _/ _/ arkerink
_/_/_/
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
(w.j.markerink@a1.nl)
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
To: Offroad@off-road.com
Date sent: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:04:44 -0700
From: Darryl Howell
Subject: 24 volt / 12 accessories
Send reply to: Offroad@off-road.com
I too was suprised that Peterson's ran this piece on 12 volt accessories from a 24
volt system. You can do it, but at the risk of frying the other battery. The
amount of current you use from the "accessory" battery is the same amount that the
other battery will be overcharged. If your loads are very small (CB, occasional
interior light, etc.) you can probably get by with it. If the loads tend to be
large, you'll overcharge the other batter, possibly boiling it dry.
Most of the over-the-road buses are 24 volt (except the Eagle) and have a Vanner
Equalizer installed in them for 12 volt loads. I haven't bought one in a long time,
but they should be available for around $200. The largest one they make is 50 amp
(I think). Pulling 12 volt accesories from a 24 volt system has been a problem on
buses for at least the last 20 years. I still see people doing it the wrong way,
often at their own peril. What appears to be the cheap way (pulling the current
from one battery) is really the expensive way.
Darryl Howell
To: Offroad@off-road.com
Date sent: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:35:30 -0800
From: jbarron@uvic.ca (John Barron & Lori Hryniuk)
Subject: 12V winches on 24V systems and visa-versa...
Send reply to: Offroad@off-road.com
Trucks use a 24/12 Volt switching relay for starting and glowing on 24 then
running everthing else on 12. Talk to a knowledgable truck
mechanic/electrician and they will know abou this.
24V winches totally kick butt compared to 12V winches...but they cost more.
j.
jbarron@uvic.ca
www.off-road.com/~irc
To: Offroad@off-road.com
From: Willem-Jan Markerink
Date sent: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:09:22 +0000
Subject: Re: 12V winches on 24V systems and visa-versa...
Send reply to: Offroad@off-road.com
On 23 Apr 97 at 21:35, John Barron & Lori Hryniuk wrote:
> Trucks use a 24/12 Volt switching relay for starting and glowing on 24 then
> running everthing else on 12. Talk to a knowledgable truck
> mechanic/electrician and they will know abou this.
>
> 24V winches totally kick butt compared to 12V winches...but they cost more.
The price difference is almost neglectible in Europe....
--
Bye,
_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
_/ _/ illem _/ _/ an _/ _/ _/ arkerink
_/_/_/
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
(w.j.markerink@a1.nl)
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
Hi Bill,
We might have talked before about finding the URL for your FAQ several months
ago....I did find it, lovely piece of information! (linked as well)
One thing I wanted to ask you about is the confusing nature of dual
batteries, in both serial (24V) and parallel setup (12V).
For the Land Cruiser cold-spec 24V aficionado's, I wrote/collected a
chapter on my homepage explaining why it is bad to hook up a 12V drain to
one battery, thereby avoiding the expense of a 24->12 adaptor.
I still am not sure about certain details, would you please check this
chapter and give your opinion? URL is:
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/main_4x4.htm
The chapter doesn't address parallel setups, but if you can compare to this
that would be nice.
Perhaps this subject is worth an additional chapter for your FAQ?....;-))
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
Date sent: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:46:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: William Darden <0005222166@MCIMAIL.COM>
Subject: 12 VDC Tapping and Other Stuff
To: "w.j.markerink"
Priority: normal
-- [ From: William Darden * EMC.Ver #3.3 ] --
Hi Willem,
In response to your thread:
With the charging system on a 24 VDC system with 12 VDC tapping across the
second battery with a heavy load, for example, a wench or high power audio
system, the first battery will be overcharged due to the current and there will be
little or no effect on the second battery unless the load is greater than the
charging system output. [The first battery is dropping 12 volts in a voltage
dividing circuit.] With the charging system off, there will be little or no effect
on the first battery and the second battery will be drained possibly damaging it (if
a car battery) due to deep cycling.
Recharging a 24 VDC system with a 12 VDC tap presents some interesting
challenges. If the non sealed (low maintenance) batteries are equally
discharged, there will be no problem recharging (equalizing) them at 29.2 VDC at 70
degrees F (21.1 degrees C) or maintaining the charge (floating) at 27.6 VDC
(measured with an accurate (.5% or better) digital voltmeter). If you have sealed
(no maintenance), gel cells, or AGM (for example, Optima) batteries, the equalizing
and float voltages will be slightly higher due to the plate formulations. If the
batteries are unequally discharged, the first battery will be over charged in order
to fully charge the second or the first battery will be fully charged and the second
will be undercharged. Either situation will possibly damage the batteries and cause
premature failure.
Some possible solutions to the dual volt problem are:
1. Dual Systems--Use a separate 12 and 24 VDC system (batteries, voltage
regulators and generators (alternators)). Sizing of the generator is important and
needs to be at least 20% above the maximum load at high idle. It is best to use car
batteries for the system that is used for starting and deep cycle batteries for the
high accessory load.
2. DC to DC Converter--Use a 24 VDC to 12 VDC Converter large enough to satisfy the
maximum load requirements.
3. Load Balance--Split the 12 VDC load over both batteries. [This is not
practical if you have only one heavy 12 VDC load at a time.]
4. Reconfigure Batteries--Use switches (relays) to reconfigure the batteries
from series to parallel when required for heavy 12 VDC load. [This is not very
practical because of recharging problems above.]
5. Convert to Single System--Convert to a single system--either 24 VDC or 12
VDC.
Battery Sulfation
Sulfation occurs when a battery self discharges normally over time and a build
up of lead sulfate on the plates occurs. It can easily be prevented by only
storing fully charged batteries and recharging them when they reach 80% state-of
-charge. If sulfation has occurred, most battery manufacturers recommend that you
slow recharge them at one of two amps over 48 or more hours. The current thinking
is that a fast recharge ("boiling" the battery) causes permanent damage to the
plates and leads to premature battery failure. Chemical additives, if they work,
are only a temporary measure.
I hope this helps explain the "why" question. Thanks for your suggestion to add
this to the Deep Cycle and Car Battery FAQs. Please let me know if I can answer any
more questions.
Regards,
BiLL.......
wdarden@mcimail.com
p.s. For additional information on multi-battery and dual voltage applications,
call Carl Smith at Sure Power (800) 845-6269 or (503) 692-5360.
From: "Willem-Jan Markerink"
To: dtlc@helios.net
Date sent: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:00:15 +0100
Subject: Re: [DTLC] trailer harness
Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net
On 25 May 99 at 18:08, Susan and/or David Dannenberg wrote:
> >On 24 May 99 at 19:38, tanya love wrote:
> >
> >> Hello Folks
> >> I took my volt meter and tested the factory trailer leads on my HJ60and
> >> found them to be 24 volt. Thank goodness I tested before plugging in the
> >> trailer. Does someone know of a plug in converter? The previous owner
> >> installed a 24-12 volt converter for the stereo and CB. ANy ideas?
> >
> >Hella makes a 5-channel converter for exactly this purpose.
> >
> >That's what most European Cruisers got mounted at the dealer....
>
> Ooo Oooo What is the part #?
My 91/92 catalog lists it as
8ES 001 790-001
8A fuses (one for each channel), size 97x79x71.
Just got off the phone, current part# is:
5DS 008 125 001
Also check recent info about a new generation of single-channel
converters, with this part#:
8ES 008 124 00
("Charge Compensator Plus"
> Do they make a 12 to 24?
Nope.
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
From: "Willem-Jan Markerink"
To: dtlc@helios.net
Date sent: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:04:02 +0100
Subject: Re: [DTLC] trailer harness
Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net
On 25 May 99 at 18:08, Susan and/or David Dannenberg wrote:
> >On 24 May 99 at 19:38, tanya love wrote:
> >
> >> Hello Folks
> >> I took my volt meter and tested the factory trailer leads on my HJ60and
> >> found them to be 24 volt. Thank goodness I tested before plugging in the
> >> trailer. Does someone know of a plug in converter? The previous owner
> >> installed a 24-12 volt converter for the stereo and CB. ANy ideas?
> >
> >Hella makes a 5-channel converter for exactly this purpose.
> >
> >That's what most European Cruisers got mounted at the dealer....
> >
> >
>
> Ooo Oooo What is the part #?
>
> Do they make a 12 to 24?
Btw, there *are* 12->24 converters, but only single-channel, and not
from Hella AFAIK. About US$100 for a 10A output version.
(I have one to run a 24V fridge in our HDJ-80 (that one only starts
at 24V, everything else is 12V))
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
From: "Willem-Jan Markerink"
To: dtlc@helios.net
Date sent: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 15:15:28 +0100
Subject: Re: [DTLC] 24V / 12 V 20 amp ( nominal ) converter
Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net
On 8 Jun 99 at 1:57, Marcos Cifuentes wrote:
> Hello
>
> I am building my own 24/12 DC converter, for my stereo.
For those pondering about a converter that is mainly used while the
engine runs:
The Hella part numbers I posted recently contain one very interesting
new unit, a charging-current-load-leveler/balancer.
It connects to all 3 battery posts in a 24V set up (0V, +12V and
+24V), and comes in two versions, 5A and 8A (8ES 008 123-001 and 8ES
008 124-001 respectively).
The only thing it does is charging the batteries indepedantly, allowing
12V accessories to be hooked to the grounded battery, without the ill
unbalanced-charging of the past (cooking one battery while the other
one still doesn't get a 100% charge).
This allows a continue 5 or 8A drain, or a 50% interval 10/16A drain,
or a 25% 20/32 drain etc....
They also claim that even without 12V accessories, the batteries will
stay in much better condition.
Price is about US$150/200.
Idle current is 15mA, in a waterproof housing, for underhood mounting.
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
From: "Willem-Jan Markerink"
To: dtlc@helios.net
Date sent: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:29:59 +0100
Subject: [DTLC] 12V vs 24V headlights (was: New Guy--questions...Kudos for Hella
Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net
On 20 Oct 00 at 12:16, Brian Monger wrote:
> I'm a bit puzzled that the headlights in a stock 24V cruiser are
> 12v and run off one battery each, but I'd buy it, especially from toyota.
It's not Toyota, it's Canada....all other cold-spec markets (that's
where 24V comes from in Toyota perspective) have true 24V
headlights, right from the factory....always had.
Just don't expect to find 24V replacement bulbs other than at Toyota
and Nissan dealers (Patrols had 24V too, I believe even a few years
in Australia)....:))
As for the most likely reason in Canada: put a rather innocent
looking legal limit of 50/55W on headlights, and you have effectively
ruled out 24 volt....
Reason:
24V H4 bulbs start at 70/75W....smaller doesn't exist, period,
neither from Hella nor from any other bulb manufacturer....TTBOMK
this is related to min. filament diameter and max filament length
and/or proper optics....since for less Watt, you need more
resistance, hence either a thinner filament, or a longer one....the
first has a mechanical limit, the second also an optical one....
And, to relate this to 12v: given the same power (P, watt), twice the
voltage (V) requires 4 times more resistance (R), because
[ P= V^2 / R ]....so the filament would have to be 4 times longer, or
1/2 the diameter....optical engineers are not very fond on such
restrictions I believe....:))
May the spirit of electrons be with you....;))
PS: I am in the final stage of mounting the Kaymar rear bumper, and
apart from restoring the previously existing 12V trailer socket[*], I
also want to mount a 24V socket on the Kaymar tab under/inside the
bumper....and I even found some neatly tucked away factory plugs with
all the proper signals present in the rear/outside wire loom....but
the question is: can I attach these directly to a trailer plug, or
should I use a set of relays?
The multi-channel converter for the 12V plug gets its own auxiliary
power, IOW: there is no direct drain on the signals themselves....but
with 24V the drain would be direct....
Should I just keep an eye on the fuses, and increase them 25% or so
if necessary? (might even hook up a 24V connection for accessories
inside the trailer, but that would be a separate feed into the plug,
not tapped from the light-circuit).
[*] I kept the stock hitch, although the co-existence of Kaymar and
hitch was not easy....but if you take a big enough sledge hammer,
you can even correct a Kaymar a few mm's....:)))
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
From: "Willem-Jan Markerink"
To: dtlc@helios.net
Date sent: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:45:34 +0100
Subject: RE: [DTLC] New Guy--questions...
Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net
On 20 Oct 00 at 9:35, Ayukawa, Michael C (Mike) wrote:
> > Brian Monger wrote:
> > > theoretically you could run 2 12v lights in series, but I
> > suspect that
> > > would lead to extemely premature bulb death.
> >
> > It might also lead to extremely premature driver death. If
> > you lose one
> > bulb, you have no headlights.
> If you mirror the stock toyota system, you should be fine.
> In that system, you run them in series (as already noted by
> Brian) but you also connect the center to the 12V point
> of the dual batteries.
That's neither series nor parallel (you could do exactly the same
with a parallel twin-battery setup (12V).
> That way, if one goes out, you will
> still have light. Don't drive like this for long. You
> will kill one of the 2 batteries. For that reason, I always
> carry a spare H4 lamp in the glove box (same watt rating as
> well).
Doesn't one have to in Canada?
We do in Europe....and when caught with a broken light, you either
must replace it on the spot, or be fined....
This concept becomes interesting with some modern cars like the MB
Smart or VW Golf/Rabbit IV....even the dealer spends half an hour
dismantling the car to reach the bulb.....8-))
> I personally, can't see why running them in series would result
> in premature bulb death. W has a postive thermal resistance
> coefficent and aged bulbs go up in resistance with evaporation
> of the filament. If anything, bulb life might go UP, but
> output down for a newer bulb in series with an older one.
Mixing old with new probably kills them even faster....resistance is
most likely different....
And with halogen bulbs, under- and overvoltage is a complex science
on itself....with overvoltage, life-expectancy drops with a power
14(!), while undervoltage in the area 10-12V is also pretty bad for
the halogen deposition-process (the wolfram evaporates over 10V, but
doesn't recycle back on to the filament, or something like that).
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
From: ugo_710m@yahoo.com
Date sent: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:08:17 -0000
Send reply to: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pinzgauer] Power converters - again
Power converters, as many of us know, can be either "linear" or
"switching".
Linear converters make sense for low power applications, due to their
intrinsic power dissipation. For example, a 24 to 12V linear converter
outputting, say, 200W would drain from the battery (and dissipate, as
heat) roughly 200 extra watts.
So we have to stick with switching power converters, which have a very
high effiency.
But these devices work by "slicing" the DC input power into pulses,
and "combining" these pulses into a DC of different voltage. This
process implies the generation of radio frequency (RF) noise, that can
impair radio reception at least, and even disturb the listening of an
intercom, or cassette or CD player.
So, my question is: are commercial or surplus converters RF quiet
enough?
Did anybody on the list check converters for compatibilty with radios
and other appliances?
Ugo Fermi
1979 710M
Ham IW1FQG
Turin, Italy
To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
From: Ron Schroeder
Date sent: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:36:06 -0400
Send reply to: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [pinzgauer] Power converters - again
At 08:08 AM 9/19/01 -0000, you wrote:
>So, my question is: are commercial or surplus converters RF quiet
>enough?
>Did anybody on the list check converters for compatibilty with radios
>and other appliances?
>
>Ugo Fermi
>1979 710M
>Ham IW1FQG
>Turin, Italy
Hi Ugo,
I am using a Vicor DC-DC converter and I can not hear it at all on any of
my ham gear except on the HF rig when tuned to the switching frequency of
the converter (about 265 KHz).
WD8CDH
Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
E. E. S.
wd8cdh@bnl.gov
rjs@bnl.gov
ron@112motors.com
631 344-4561 Day
631 286-5677 Nite
To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
From: jimm391730@yahoo.com
Date sent: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 17:06:32 -0000
Send reply to: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pinzgauer] Re: Jumping dead battery
--- In pinzgauer@y..., jdfoertsch@a... wrote:
> 1) Is it possible to use the Pinz to jump start a 12 volt vehicle
without causing damage to the batteries?
Yes. Use one Pinz battery; change to the other battery after 10-15
seconds of cranking, if needed.
> 2) Is it possible to jump start a Pinz using a 12 volt vehicle?
Yes. Connect the 12V vehicle to one Pinz battery for a few minutes,
then re-connect the jumpers to the other battery and attempt to start
the Pinz.
Both of these senarios will unbalance the Pinz batteries, but if the
Pinz charging system is up to snuff the unbalance will work its way
out, given time. Is it good for the Pinz? No. Would I do it in a
pinch to help someone else out, or if the Pinz batteries were
drained? Absolutely. There is a big difference between the
occasional use like this, and a continous drain on one battery from
12V loads.
Usually larger voltage battery strings are given an "Equalizing
charge" on occasion. This involves charging the battery at a higher
than normal voltage for a fixed time. The cells that are up to
charge will boil off water (liberating Hydrogen and Oxygen!) during
overcharge while the cells that still need addional charging get what
they need.
The best situation is to charge each 2V cell individually, but for us
the best simple way to keep the batteries in good shape is to put
each of the 12V batteries on an independent charger occasionally.
My ten cents worth (inflation, you know?!)
Jim M
From: "Melissa"
To:
Subject: 24 volt winch
Date sent: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:33:17 -0700
Hi,I got tired of the lack of power running the winch off one battery =
when i was stuck in the mud and just hooked the winch up to 24volts too =
my amazment not only did it yard me out of the mud with out draining the =
batts, it didn't even stall.I am still running my 12volt 8274 on 24volts =
and have found the winch motor dosn't heat up as bad, it dosn't brown =
out or stall, it will snap the 3/8" cable fairly easily I've been =
running it like so for a year and a half and havn't had to replace a =
single solenoid I do a fair bit of wheeling so it gets used a fair =
bit,12 volt winch hooked up to a 24volt source and still going(thing is =
almost scary now).
=
From Mike Tomkinson
=
Vancouver Island
=
tomkinson_mike@hotmail.com
Date sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 06:04:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: mike_ayukawa@yahoo.com
Subject: [DTLC] 12V radio in 24V LC
To: dtlc@helios.net
Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net
Hi,
If you have a aftermarket radio with a memory
function, here is a way to keep the memory alive.
Even with the systems that pull amperage through
the 'always on' lead when the system is on.
It works just fine for my Audiovox CD/Radio
($70 KMart special).
The trick is to use a diode to block leakage from
the always on, supplied through a resistor from
your clock power. This keeps the memory alive
when the truck is shut down. But when the
radio is turned on, the diode allows current to
be supplied from the switched supply, so that the
meager supply from the clock power is not overwhelmed.
Of course, you have a diode drop less voltage to your
player. But I'll hazard, less leakage than keeping
your 24V to 12V converter active.
Best part, costs less than $3 in parts. Diodes were
$2 from RadioShack. And I got 2. Shrink wrap to keep
it looking pretty. Resistors were
from some I had around. They were too high so I
just put a couple in parallel (and closer to 300
ohms in the end but it works OK).
Mike
12V switched --------------- 12V switched to CD/Radio
|
|
V
- Power diode
|
|
|------------ 12V always on to CD/Radio
|
|
R about 120 ohms (depends on Cd/Radio)
|
28V from clock -
To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
From: "chris_scarlata"
Date sent: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 18:37:16 -0000
Subject: [pinzgauer] 12v winch
Send reply to: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
Has anyone set up a 12 volt winch on their Pinz? I know you need to
get a custom bumper to mount it, but how did you do the wiring?
12 volt winches seem to be cheaper than 24 volt winches -- but you'll
need to buy additional stuff with a 12 volt (battery equalizer,
others?).
I'd greatly appreciate any input on this one. I'm looking to make a
purchase soon.
Thanks--
Chris
To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
From: "cwripinz"
Date sent: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:07:09 -0000
Subject: [pinzgauer] Re: 12v winch
Send reply to: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
Chris--
> 12 volt winches seem to be cheaper than 24 volt winches -- but
> you'll need to buy additional stuff with a 12 volt (battery
> qualizer, others?).
24 Volt winch costs a couple of hundred dollars more but you gain
with the low heat generation on the 24 volt winch (twice the voltage,
half the amperage, amps=heat, so about half the heat) which gives you
longer, stronger pulls and about twice the mean time between failures
from heat related wear.
Remember that if you put either 12 or 24 Volt Winch on the Pinzgauer,
Front Structural Reinforcment is a must to prevent damage which can
result from hard off-camber pulls.
--Patrick
(303) 346-8462
To:
From: "Ron Schroeder"
Date sent: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:41:14 -0500
Subject: Re: [pinzgauer] 12v winch
Send reply to: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "chris_scarlata"
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 1:37 PM
> Has anyone set up a 12 volt winch on their Pinz? I know you need to
> get a custom bumper to mount it, but how did you do the wiring?
>
> 12 volt winches seem to be cheaper than 24 volt winches -- but you'll
> need to buy additional stuff with a 12 volt (battery equalizer,
> others?).
Hi Chris,
If you don't allready have the winch, buy a 24V one. I have set up 12V
winches on 24V vehicles. It will cost more for the extra "stuff" than the
differance in price between a 12V winch and a 24V winch. Wires need to be
larger for a 12V winch too.
Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
day 631 344-4561
nite 631 286-5677
To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
Priority: normal
From: "Willem-Jan Markerink"
Date sent: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 22:19:29 +0100
Subject: Re: [pinzgauer] 12v winch
Send reply to: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
On 31 Dec 01 at 20:20, Eric Brandwine wrote:
> >>>>> "cs" == chris scarlata writes:
>
> cs> Has anyone set up a 12 volt winch on their Pinz? I know you need to
> cs> get a custom bumper to mount it, but how did you do the wiring?
>
> cs> 12 volt winches seem to be cheaper than 24 volt winches -- but you'll cs>
> need to buy additional stuff with a 12 volt (battery equalizer, cs> others?).
>
> Well, if you look at Willem's site, folks claim that they run 12V
> winches on 24V, no problems. Faster pulls, and all is well. Sounds
> scary to me, but I've never done it, so no first hand experience.
Ahem, if you mean my site, than you really have to read that
chapter/article again....that advice came from an USA-mag, while it
can be downright lethal without a battery-equalizer (and no
battery-equalizer can keep up with 400A drains....largest unit I have
seen only does 50A, and such a large equalizer will cost you a lot
more than the extra cost of a 24v winch).
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/12v&24v.htm
As for the argument of cooler running & less amps with 24v vs
12v....that *used* to be true, until the new 12v motors were released
(Bosch I think, can be ordered separately)....nearly twice as
efficient, same pulling force, half the amps.
At that time, I asked whether the 24v motors would be improved
similarly any time soon....they didn't deny it, but wouldn't give a
date either....but one would expect some media attention for this
too, if it were true by now.
Btw equalizers: after draining the batteries on my 24v Land Cruiser
too much with the diesel furnace (too many short/cold/pre-heated
trips recently, no time for the batteries to recharge), I did some
measuring while recharging with a 24v charger....one battery got
nearly 16v (older one), the other (newer one) 14.5v.
While this is a worser case than engine-driven charging (the 230v
charger was switched to 'boost', 14.8v), it nicely demonstrated that
a battery equalizer can be justified even without any 12v drains (as
is also claimed by Hella (who only supplies relatively small
equalizers, 5 & 8A, but that is probably enough without 12v drains).
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
From: Ron Schroeder
Date sent: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:25:04 -0500
Subject: Re: [pinzgauer] 12v winch
Send reply to: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Willem-Jan Markerink"
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 4:19 PM
> Ahem, if you mean my site, than you really have to read that
> chapter/article again....that advice came from an USA-mag, while it
> can be downright lethal without a battery-equalizer (and no
> battery-equalizer can keep up with 400A drains....largest unit I have
> seen only does 50A, and such a large equalizer will cost you a lot
> more than the extra cost of a 24v winch).
Allthough an equalizer will not keep up with a 400A draw from a winch, it
doesn't need to. The equalizer can keep feeding power back into the more
discharged battery even after the load is removed. You of course need to
keep the pulls short and it would be a good idea to swap the two batteries
after every outing that you use the winch much to keep them excersized
equally.
Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
day 631 344-4561
nite 631 286-5677
To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
Priority: normal
From: "Willem-Jan Markerink"
Date sent: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 22:39:34 +0100
Subject: Re: [pinzgauer] 12v winch
Send reply to: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
On 4 Jan 02 at 16:25, Ron Schroeder wrote:
> > Ahem, if you mean my site, than you really have to read that
> > chapter/article again....that advice came from an USA-mag, while it
> > can be downright lethal without a battery-equalizer (and no
> > battery-equalizer can keep up with 400A drains....largest unit I have
> > seen only does 50A, and such a large equalizer will cost you a lot
> > more than the extra cost of a 24v winch).
>
>
> Allthough an equalizer will not keep up with a 400A draw from a winch, it
> doesn't need to. The equalizer can keep feeding power back into the more
> discharged battery even after the load is removed. You of course need to keep
> the pulls short and it would be a good idea to swap the two batteries after
> every outing that you use the winch much to keep them excersized equally.
I know how the equalizer works, but that does not alter the lethal
aspect, at least not if the equalizer compensates for much less than
the alternator can supply in real-time mode....and the practical max
of an equalizer, 50A, is about half what a decent alternator *should*
supply....so you would still have an inbalance of 50A (instead of
100A before).
Perhaps a sealed battery would prevent the extreme gas-buildup,
which is the main factor in this lethal argument....but IIRC,
overvoltage is a lot worse for sealed batteries in terms of
life-expectancy, and this overvoltage is what we are talking about
here as the cause of the problem....
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
From: Eric Brandwine
Date sent: 31 Dec 2001 20:20:07 +0000
Subject: Re: [pinzgauer] 12v winch
Send reply to: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
>>>>> "cs" == chris scarlata writes:
cs> Has anyone set up a 12 volt winch on their Pinz? I know you need to
cs> get a custom bumper to mount it, but how did you do the wiring?
cs> 12 volt winches seem to be cheaper than 24 volt winches -- but you'll
cs> need to buy additional stuff with a 12 volt (battery equalizer,
cs> others?).
Well, if you look at Willem's site, folks claim that they run 12V
winches on 24V, no problems. Faster pulls, and all is well. Sounds
scary to me, but I've never done it, so no first hand experience.
If you're not willing to pull that little trick, just buy a 24V winch.
They come across eBay every so often, sometimes really cheap. I've
seen 9000lb winches, 24V, reputable brands for $500 or so on occasion.
Simpler, easier, and all sorts of benefits.
ericb
'71 710M
--
Eric Brandwine | Natives who beat drums to drive off evil spirits are
UUNetwork Security | objects of scorn to smart Americans who blow horns to
ericb@uu.net | break up traffic jams. +1 703 886 6038 | - Mary
Ellen Kelly Key fingerprint = 3A39 2C2F D5A0 FC7C 5F60 4118 A84A BD5D 59D7
4E3E
To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
Priority: normal
From: "Willem-Jan Markerink"
Date sent: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 02:23:57 +0100
Subject: Re: [pinzgauer] 12v winch
Send reply to: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
On 4 Jan 02 at 22:19, Willem-Jan Markerink wrote:
> On 31 Dec 01 at 20:20, Eric Brandwine wrote:
>
> > >>>>> "cs" == chris scarlata writes:
> >
> > cs> Has anyone set up a 12 volt winch on their Pinz? I know you need to cs>
> > get a custom bumper to mount it, but how did you do the wiring?
> >
> > cs> 12 volt winches seem to be cheaper than 24 volt winches -- but you'll
> > cs> need to buy additional stuff with a 12 volt (battery equalizer, cs>
> > others?).
> >
> > Well, if you look at Willem's site, folks claim that they run 12V
> > winches on 24V, no problems. Faster pulls, and all is well. Sounds
> > scary to me, but I've never done it, so no first hand experience.
>
> Ahem, if you mean my site, than you really have to read that
> chapter/article again....that advice came from an USA-mag, while it
> can be downright lethal without a battery-equalizer (and no
> battery-equalizer can keep up with 400A drains....largest unit I have
> seen only does 50A, and such a large equalizer will cost you a lot
> more than the extra cost of a 24v winch).
>
> http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/12v&24v.htm
Ooops, I must offer my sincere apologies to Eric....I forgot I
recently added an article about someone hooking up a 12v winch to a
24v circuit, directly, not just to one battery, but to both, with the full 24v
voltage....scary enough not to consider it realistic in the long term....see
below:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: dtlc@helios.net, 80scool@yahoogroups.com
Priority: normal
From: "Willem-Jan Markerink"
Date sent: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 17:51:22 +0100
Send reply to: 80scool@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [80] (Fwd) 12V winch on 24V batteries
Oh well, most inventions were done by accident....some lead to
disaster, some to glory....and for the rest, I refer to my sig....:))
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From: "Melissa"
To:
Subject: 24 volt winch
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:33:17 -0700
Hi,I got tired of the lack of power running the winch off one battery =
when i was stuck in the mud and just hooked the winch up to 24volts too =
my amazment not only did it yard me out of the mud with out draining the =
batts, it didn't even stall.I am still running my 12volt 8274 on 24volts =
and have found the winch motor dosn't heat up as bad, it dosn't brown =
out or stall, it will snap the 3/8" cable fairly easily I've been =
running it like so for a year and a half and havn't had to replace a =
single solenoid I do a fair bit of wheeling so it gets used a fair =
bit,12 volt winch hooked up to a 24volt source and still going(thing is =
almost scary now).
=
From Mike Tomkinson
=
Vancouver Island
=
tomkinson_mike@hotmail.com
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
From: w.j.markerink@a1.nl
To: dtlc@helios.net
Date sent: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:39:18 +0100
Subject: 12/24v battery notes (was: [DTLC] Batteries for my 3B
Send reply to: dtlc@helios.net
Copies to: 80scool@yahoogroups.com
On 23 Jan 02 at 13:02, Greg Macijuk wrote:
> Afternoon all,
>
> I have a 1986 BJ70.. it's a 24Volt system with the 3B engine... anyways, I may
> have turfed one of my batteries. I think my block heater is not functioning..
> thus I cranked till I couldn't crank no more yesterday.. anyways come today..
> no cranking ability. One battery is severly discharged and may need to be
> replaced(we'll see.. I've got it on the charger). That being said, what's a
> good battery to replace it with.. I think I have a Canadian Tire Eliminator
> Heavy Duty 875CCA battery right now. any ideas?
A warning to all 24v owners who just drained one or two batteries
completely: NEVER recharge them with the alternator as a set....
I recently had one bad battery, and after hooking up a beefy 24v
charger/jumpstarter, I measured nearly 16v on one battery, 14v on the
other....and that would be no different than when charged by the
alternator....that way you reall cook a battery....8-))
THEREFOR: always recharge them independantly with 12v after being
drained so deep.
Also, I recently found the subtle difference between 13.8v and
14.4/14.8v....13.8v is a voltage which the battery survives
forever....14.4v is the voltage which a battery *needs* when it is
*cold* (high-tech chargers in boats & campers compensate for this!),
but *not* a voltage a battery can survive forever.
Also2: recently had a battery on which a cheap 10A on/off charger
went crazy on....on/off/on/off, and no starting....solution turned
out to be a small 1.5A continuous charger, hooked on for a few
days....perhaps a beefy charger could have solved the problem too,
but it's interesting to see a tiny charger do what a 10A can't.
Also3: forget about Toyota being smart when upgrading from the true
24v systems to a switching 12v/24v system in 1990 (HDJ-80; 24v for
starting, 12v alternator and accessories)....its even worse than I
thought for the entire 12 years....read and shiver:
I recently had both batteries drained completely on my
HDJ-80....after the usual alarm nightmare when starting[*], and
trying the beefy charger/jumpstarter on only one battery in vain, it
dawned om me that to get the necessary 24v for starting, I needed two
*separate* 12v jump-start sources (batteries were too toast to
recharge, neither would assist even the slightest bit)....and this
~!@#$%^&* meant that even my true 24v Cruiser wouldn't do.... I
needed TWO separate vehicles, a single 24v source means a short on
the switching 12v/24v HDJ....
What a mess....for the ultimate worst-case scenario (not in my case)
imagine having to line up TWO vehicles to the front of the Cruiser;
somewhere in a small alley, or parked/packed in deep snow....what a
nightmare....
Oh, and one vehicle plus beefy charger/jumpstarter wouldn't do
either....the wires of that thing got quite hot (about 100A), but no
go....whether it were the toast batteries draining extra amps, I
don't know, but one needs a real big unit (forget about those without
wheels, it has to be heavier than that!) to equal a donor
vehicle/battery....another lesson learned (it never failed on me with
only drained (healthy) batteries in a 24v or 12v vehicle).
[*] with no f*cking way to silence the system completely in all the
permutations of starting/jumpstarting/recharging....had all the
necessary keys, but the damn thing wouldn't shut
up....~!@#$%^&*....gimme a problem-free Mul-T-Lock gearbox lock
anyday....8-))
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
Priority: normal
From: "Willem-Jan Markerink"
Date sent: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 00:04:39 +0100
Subject: Re: [pinzgauer] 24VDC and 12VDC alternator
Send reply to: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
On 13 May 02 at 16:21, sulzameck wrote:
> Howdy
> Has any one added a 12V alternator,in addition to the 24V unit,This
> would be to power one 12VDC battery and to run a 12vdc winch.
>
> Thanks
> Rick
Wanna have fun?
Simply hook your 12V winch to the full 24V (*never* ever to only one
battery of the two)....despite popular belief, it seems they last
quite some time in this configuration, and in the mean time pulling
the bejeezus out of everything, at a dazzling speed.
Not quite sure whether this can only be done with the latest
generation of high-efficiency motors; the ones which nearly doubled
pulling force without changing amp-draw, hence half the heat-waste at
twice the old pull, a quart at the same pull.
(these motors only exist in 12V AFAIK, sadly....but 24V motors were
way more efficient to begin with anyway; performance of the twelfies
is only slightly better in case of a 8274; under load a 24v unit does
still better....but a twelfie at 24V is no comparison....:))
More about this on:
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/12v&24v.htm
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
From: "jimm391730"
Date sent: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 02:58:27 -0000
Subject: [pinzgauer] Re: 24VDC and 12VDC alternator
Send reply to: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
--- In pinzgauer@y..., "Willem-Jan Markerink"
wrote:
> ...Simply hook your 12V winch to the full 24V (*never* ever to only
one battery of the two)....despite popular belief, it seems they last
> quite some time in this configuration, and in the mean time pulling
> the bejeezus out of everything, at a dazzling speed.
> Not quite sure whether this can only be done with the latest
> generation of high-efficiency motors; the ones which nearly doubled
> pulling force without changing amp-draw...
If a winch uses a "series wound" motor you can (relatively) safely
increase the voltage. The motor will run faster at any load with
more torque at the higher voltage. (DC powered electric vehicles do
this all the time, I know, I have one). A permanet magnet motor
could be damaged, however, not so much because of the increased
voltage directly, but due to the increased current that may flow at
high loads: the permanent magnets MAY be damaged (technical answer:
demagnetized, if the coercive force is exceeded). This usually is a
gradual perfomance reduction, and you may not notice it over the life
of the winch, but if the magnets are damaged there is no recourse
except to buy a new motor eventually.
For the "occasional" winch use, I see no problem with running a 12V
winch at 24V. If you plan to use the winch on a daily basis it would
probably be wise to invest in a 24V system.
Jim M.
1976 712W
To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
Priority: normal
From: "Willem-Jan Markerink"
Date sent: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:58:27 +0100
Subject: Re: [pinzgauer] Re: 24VDC and 12VDC alternator
Send reply to: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
On 28 Jun 02 at 2:58, jimm391730 wrote:
> --- In pinzgauer@y..., "Willem-Jan Markerink"
> wrote:
>
> > ...Simply hook your 12V winch to the full 24V (*never* ever to only
> one battery of the two)....despite popular belief, it seems they last
> > quite some time in this configuration, and in the mean time pulling
> > the bejeezus out of everything, at a dazzling speed.
> > Not quite sure whether this can only be done with the latest
> > generation of high-efficiency motors; the ones which nearly doubled
> > pulling force without changing amp-draw...
>
> If a winch uses a "series wound" motor you can (relatively) safely
> increase the voltage. The motor will run faster at any load with
> more torque at the higher voltage. (DC powered electric vehicles do
> this all the time, I know, I have one). A permanet magnet motor
> could be damaged, however, not so much because of the increased
> voltage directly, but due to the increased current that may flow at
> high loads: the permanent magnets MAY be damaged (technical answer:
> demagnetized, if the coercive force is exceeded). This usually is a
> gradual perfomance reduction, and you may not notice it over the life
> of the winch, but if the magnets are damaged there is no recourse
> except to buy a new motor eventually.
>
> For the "occasional" winch use, I see no problem with running a 12V
> winch at 24V. If you plan to use the winch on a daily basis it would
> probably be wise to invest in a 24V system.
Well, I first heard about this from some crazy rally/trial-driving
Aussies....if *they* can hardly break a 12V winch this way, then you
and I will never either....:))
What also might help a lot in the heat-department is the
separate-motor design of a Warn 8274....and the point you mention
above is also more related to heat than to current AFAIK (or perhaps both,
but more than directly related).
A few years ago I even read people discuss water-cooled winch
motors....again something that can only be done on a 8274....:))
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
From: Eric Brandwine
Date sent: 29 Jun 2002 01:24:51 +0000
Subject: Re: [pinzgauer] Re: 24VDC and 12VDC alternator
Send reply to: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
>>>>> "wm" == Willem-Jan Markerink writes:
wm> What also might help a lot in the heat-department is the
wm> separate-motor design of a Warn 8274....and the point you mention
wm> above is also more related to heat than to current AFAIK (or perhaps both,
wm> but more than directly related).
wm> A few years ago I even read people discuss water-cooled winch
wm> motors....again something that can only be done on a 8274....:))
In Croatia, I saw an 8274 that had two motors. You couldn't run them
at the same time, as they'd shatter the gearbox on the winch, but you
could switch off between them, and divide the heat load between them.
It was all custom work, of course. (And he still managed to fry a motor!)
ericb
'71 710M
To:
From: "Scott Ingham"
Date sent: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:37:24 -0700
Subject: RE: [pinzgauer] Re: 24VDC and 12VDC alternator
Send reply to: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
Considering that there is only a $120 price differential between 12V and 24V (at
least from Warn) and $70 of that is a "Power Interrupt Kit" which is required by
law in Europe, it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to run the 12V on 24V
unless you already have the 12V winch.
Add to that the heat related benefits of 24V winch motors...........
Just my .02 cents.
Cheers,
Scott
To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
Priority: normal
From: "Willem-Jan Markerink"
Date sent: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 23:53:43 +0100
Subject: RE: [pinzgauer] Re: 24VDC and 12VDC alternator
Send reply to: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
On 28 Jun 02 at 11:37, Scott Ingham wrote:
> Considering that there is only a $120 price differential between 12V and 24V
> (at least from Warn) and $70 of that is a "Power Interrupt Kit" which is
> required by law in Europe, it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to run the
> 12V on 24V unless you already have the 12V winch.
>
> Add to that the heat related benefits of 24V winch motors...........
But as I said, the 12V motors have been upgraded to twice the
efficiency of before; the 24V motors are *not* (yet, AFAIK).
But, the 24V motors were *more* than a factor two better on some
aspects (full pull speed being one); see also:
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/warn_24v.htm
So in the end there is much less difference between 12v and 24v than
before; and this is probably what some crazy Aussies had in mind when
doubling that super-efficient 12V motor, by running it straight on
24v....at half the heat-waste from before, that's much safer to
do....and it's tempting too, as long as there are no similar
high(er)-efficiency 24v motors....:))
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
To: Pinzlist
From: John
Date sent: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 14:25:24 -0400
Subject: [pinzgauer] 12v winch on 24v
Send reply to: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
I have a question on this subject. I have a Warn X8000i 12 volt winch.
Will the 12v solenoids take the 24v? All the discussion I've heard has
been talking about the motors and no talk of the solenoids.
John Geesen
To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
Priority: normal
From: "Willem-Jan Markerink"
Date sent: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 21:01:51 +0100
Subject: Re: [pinzgauer] 12v winch on 24v
Send reply to: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
On 30 Jun 02 at 14:25, John wrote:
> I have a question on this subject. I have a Warn X8000i 12 volt winch.
> Will the 12v solenoids take the 24v? All the discussion I've heard has
> been talking about the motors and no talk of the solenoids.
I would definately switch the solenoids, I doubt they will last long
at twice the voltage....not the most expensive parts either.
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
Subject: re
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 17:20:15 -0500
From: "SMITS, JAN"
To:
I am doing something off the wall as usual so here is a question for
you.
I would like to be able to charge a set of 24v batteries from my 12v
suv...what is the best way to do it? What electronic devices will I
have to obtain and do you have any suggestions where I would look for
them?
Thank you in advance.
J. W. Smits
Computer Science Department
Learning Labs Manager
Tarrant County College
jan.smits@tccd.edu
From: Willem-Jan Markerink
To: "SMITS, JAN"
Subject: re
Reply-to: w.j.markerink@a1.nl
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 02:15:17 +0200
On 21 Jul 2003 at 17:20, SMITS, JAN wrote:
> I am doing something off the wall as usual so here is a question for
> you.
>
> I would like to be able to charge a set of 24v batteries from my 12v
> suv...what is the best way to do it? What electronic devices will I
> have to obtain and do you have any suggestions where I would look for
> them?
Must the 24v configuration stay intact, for running devices, or for
ease of maintenance, while charging?
If not, then you could reconfigure them from the serial 24v setup to
a parallel 12 setup, and run them straight with 12v (but only with a
running engine, to provide the necessary 13.8-14.4v (warm-cold)
If not, you need more than just a converter, since most converters
will provide a clean 12 or 24v, while you need 14/28v.
Check this file for some applications/solutions/brands in mixed 12/24
setups:
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/batequal.txt
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
Subject: RE: re
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 07:58:35 -0500
From: "SMITS, JAN"
To:
Thanks for the speedy reply.
Yes, the batteries need to be intact, linked via series. To disconnect
them would be labor intensive. My original plan was to run a line from
the truck (maybe at the trailer hookup)to the battery plug in which is
24v and 2 wires on the plug. I will check with the company mentioned in
the link you sent me to see if that device may not be the answer. The
only down side of a solar panel is that there is no place to mount it
due to the cover which protects the boat when not in use and to put the
panel anywhere else would be exposed to the wind, hail and other
elements which may be detrimental to the device.
In my last boat, the batteries were hooked parallel and were only 12v
system so I could just easily run a line to the plug and keep the
batteries charged while traveling in the truck. The 24v system and
setup presented a new challenge to do the same thing.
Thanks again for your input and suggestions.
Jan
From: Willem-Jan Markerink
To: "SMITS, JAN"
Subject: RE: re
Reply-to: w.j.markerink@a1.nl
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:32:19 +0200
On 22 Jul 2003 at 7:58, SMITS, JAN wrote:
> Thanks for the speedy reply.
>
> Yes, the batteries need to be intact, linked via series. To
> disconnect them would be labor intensive. My original plan was to run
> a line from the truck (maybe at the trailer hookup)to the battery plug
> in which is 24v and 2 wires on the plug. I will check with the company
> mentioned in the link you sent me to see if that device may not be the
> answer. The only down side of a solar panel
None of these products is solar-specific, they are also/mainly used
to feed 12v stuff from 24v banks, *plus* balance the batteries in a
24v bank (largest problem of 24v systems, even without 12v drains!),
but are also 100% reversible in function.
So instead of 24v input and 12v output, it works just as good with
12v input and 24v output.
It's braincracking stuff, but read all those sites & product
explanations.
A less sophisticated solution would be 12v->220v and 220v->24v.
Btw, I do know a more simple 12->24v stepup converter, but it doesn't
do 28v AFAIK....and if it isn't designed that way, you won't get that
voltage on the end of a long wire anyway.
Have one myself, to run a 24v fridge in all vehicles.
OTOH, you can also get 10-12v -> 13.8v converters, to be sure that
wire losses still allow charging, mostly on the end of a trailer
wire....but I can't remember having seen those for 20-24v -> 27.6v.
They might exist, but are probably more expensive than one of these
reversible charge balancers/battery equalizers.
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
From: "Russ McIntire"
Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 01:02:42 -0000
Subject: [pinzgauer] Re: Cheap Pinz wimpy horn replacement
Reply-To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
I installed two 12 volt harbor freight horns in series. While I now
HAVE a horn it does sound like a sick donkey. You know, like Hee Haw...
It definitely gets people's attention when I ever so infrequently use
it. I think I am going to install an air tank/compressor anyway and
install a nice 24 volt solenoid controlled horn one of these days.
Until then, HEE HAW
russ
'74 710K
To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
From: "Willem-Jan Markerink"
Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:11:17 +0200
Subject: Re: [pinzgauer] Re: Cheap Pinz wimpy horn replacement
Reply-To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
On 4 Apr 2005 at 1:02, Russ McIntire wrote:
>
>
> I installed two 12 volt harbor freight horns in series. While I now
> HAVE a horn it does sound like a sick donkey. You know, like Hee
> Haw...
>
> It definitely gets people's attention when I ever so infrequently use
> it. I think I am going to install an air tank/compressor anyway and
> install a nice 24 volt solenoid controlled horn one of these days.
>
> Until then, HEE HAW
Is that Hee Haw according to factory spec, or is it the result of the
serial circuit?....:))
Willem (who, within the animal range, would actually prefer the
bull's horn characteristic) Jan
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
From: "Russ McIntire"
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 23:59:22 -0000
Subject: [pinzgauer] Re: Cheap Pinz wimpy horn replacement
Reply-To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
--- In pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink"
wrote:
> On 4 Apr 2005 at 1:02, Russ McIntire wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I installed two 12 volt harbor freight horns in series. While I now
> > HAVE a horn it does sound like a sick donkey. You know, like Hee
> > Haw...
> >
> > It definitely gets people's attention when I ever so infrequently use
> > it. I think I am going to install an air tank/compressor anyway and
> > install a nice 24 volt solenoid controlled horn one of these days.
> >
> > Until then, HEE HAW
>
> Is that Hee Haw according to factory spec, or is it the result of the
> serial circuit?....:))
>
> Willem (who, within the animal range, would actually prefer the
> bull's horn characteristic) Jan
It is the result of the serial circuit. It was an unanticipated
result of the way those horns work.
russ
'74 710K
To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
Cc: dtlc@helios.net, volvo303@yahoogroups.com
From: "Willem-Jan Markerink"
Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:08:14 +0200
Subject: [pinzgauer] 2x 12v horns in series (was: Cheap Pinz wimpy horn replacement
Reply-To: pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com
On 7 Apr 2005 at 23:59, Russ McIntire wrote:
> --- In pinzgauer@yahoogroups.com, "Willem-Jan Markerink"
> wrote:
> > On 4 Apr 2005 at 1:02, Russ McIntire wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I installed two 12 volt harbor freight horns in series. While I now
> > > HAVE a horn it does sound like a sick donkey. You know, like Hee
> > > Haw...
> > >
> > > It definitely gets people's attention when I ever so infrequently use
> > > it. I think I am going to install an air tank/compressor anyway and
> > > install a nice 24 volt solenoid controlled horn one of these days.
> > >
> > > Until then, HEE HAW
> >
> > Is that Hee Haw according to factory spec, or is it the result of the
> > serial circuit?....:))
> >
> > Willem (who, within the animal range, would actually prefer the
> > bull's horn characteristic) Jan
>
>
> It is the result of the serial circuit. It was an unanticipated
> result of the way those horns work.
Quickly changing resistance or impedance?
(probably not the current oscillating in the same pattern as the
magnet, along with the cone, is it?....since that would create a
contious electrical interaction between the horns (and the ultimate
horror for the ear....:))
Cool, gotta include this in my file of 12v/24v topics, category
'things not to do, unless you want to annoy your neighbours (and
yourself)'....:))
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
From: "arthur herr"
To: w.j.markerink@a1.nl
Subject: 4x4 & offroad 24v to 12v simple conversion
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 14:01:20 -0400
Hi Willem,
I have a problem.your site had info on 24v DC generator and running 12v
accessories.
I'm working in very rural southern mexico.
I'm running a small homemade water well drilling rig.
The rig has a 24v alternator/generator and will charge batteries in
serries.But,the diesel fuel pump,tachometer and,lights,are 12v.
The diesel pump runs way to fast when on 24v and lights burn to
brightly.These will burnout rather quickly if I persist with 24v.
What I've been doing is starting engine with 3 12v batts in parralel but
batts don't seem to be chargeing.
Here,there is nothing available,ie;converter to alleviate my problem.
I've just lost a battery(dead).
Is there any simple,unsophisticated way to charge batts in serries(24v) and
run the 12v things at same time?
The engine is a diesel.
I hope you could give some advise to do this.
Thank you for your time.
Regards,Arthur Herr
From: Willem-Jan Markerink
To: "arthur herr"
Subject: Re: 4x4 & offroad 24v to 12v simple conversion
Reply-to: w.j.markerink@a1.nl
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 20:49:04 +0200
On 8 Sep 2005 at 14:01, arthur herr wrote:
> Hi Willem,
>
> I have a problem.your site had info on 24v DC generator and running
> 12v accessories.
>
> I'm working in very rural southern mexico.
> I'm running a small homemade water well drilling rig.
> The rig has a 24v alternator/generator and will charge batteries in
> serries.But,the diesel fuel pump,tachometer and,lights,are 12v. The
> diesel pump runs way to fast when on 24v and lights burn to
> brightly.These will burnout rather quickly if I persist with 24v.
>
> What I've been doing is starting engine with 3 12v batts in parralel
> but batts don't seem to be chargeing.
You mean parallel (12v), or serial (36v)?
The latter wouldn't be charged indeed, with the 24v typical 28.8v....
> Here,there is nothing available,ie;converter to alleviate my problem.
> I've just lost a battery(dead).
If this requires a long-term solution, and a foolproof one as well,
then there is little I can recommend, apart from either a 24v->12v
converter (how much current does the 12v stuff require?), or a
battery-balancer/charge-equalizer. Or perhaps even a 24v->13.8v
converter, to charge a separate 12v battery, a slightly different
configuration.
Short: you *can* tap 12v from a serial 24v setup, but unless you take
care of the balancing yourself (switching the 12v drain from one
battery to the other every half hour (which is probably near
impossible if the fuel pump must run continuously)), you will kill
the batteries.
> Is there any simple,unsophisticated way to charge batts in
> serries(24v) and run the 12v things at same time? The engine is a
> diesel.
Simple yes (switching/alternating the 12v drain), but that is far
from foolproof in the long term....
(and also goes against the ideal situation of not draining the
batteries beyond the amount of charging they get, otherwise you cycle
them deeper, and loose battery-life that way)
(which would also apply to running a second set of 24v batteries,
pulling them off the charging circuit, and draining them
separately/alternating, and hooking them back on after both are
drained)
> I hope you could give some advise to do this.
If the 24v alternator has enough capacity, you could run even a
crude/inefficient converter (the stuff with coolribs, and 50%
efficiency).
Finding a 24v fuel pump isn't possible either?
(the tacho probably doesn't drain too much current, and changing the
lights to 24v might also be relatively easy (if you have access to
truck accessories/maintenance parts)
You could perhaps even take a 2nd 12v pump, and run it in series on
24v....:))
(or find a matching resistor, same resistance as the pump, and switch
that one in series (the crude type of 24v->12v converter doesn't do
any better, it wastes 50% of energy as heat too)....could do the same
for the tacho, then you only have to change the lights (bit too much
work to put a resistor to all of them (even though these would be
easy to calculate, given a known wattage))
Last approach, apart from changing both alternator and startmotor to
12v:
Add a 12v alternator to the engine, and run those 12v accessories on
that circuit.
Thank you for inspiring this brainstorm, think I'll include it in
that 12/24v chapter....:))
(you did find that one on my site, didn't you?)
PS: are you just working there, or even living, permanently/summer-
house?
Otherwise please send a few pix of location (and drilling rig), just
for fun....:))
(only if you can of course, no need for difficult/time-consuming
scanning or expensive upload connections)
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
From: "arthur herr"
To: w.j.markerink@a1.nl
Subject: Re: 4x4 & offroad 24v to 12v simple conversion
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:22:41 -0400
Hi Willem-Jan,
Yes,I am living down here(11 years)
I'm an ex Manhattenite NY,Had enough of the States.
I would love to send photos when I can drag a friend with a digital camera
out to machine.
Best long term and roughest solution is addition of a 12v batt and
alternator!Thanks.
A real old Mexican heavy machine operator said to run a positive wire from
pos batt,one per accessory,to a 12v light socket with bulb.From socket to
ground and positive post solder on an additional wire to accessory and then
ground accessory as indicated.He said this would give me 12v to my
accessory.(?)
This would be very easy and let me have batts in "serries" and charge
directly from 24v alternator.
Comments are welcome.
Warmest Regards,Arthur Herr
P.S.,my apartment in NY was 15 city blocks from World Trade Center.After
first bombing figured they'ld come back to finish them off!
I lost 11 friends in the towers.
From: Willem-Jan Markerink
To: "arthur herr"
Subject: Re: 4x4 & offroad 24v to 12v simple conversion
Reply-to: w.j.markerink@a1.nl
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 22:13:28 +0200
On 8 Sep 2005 at 15:22, arthur herr wrote:
> Hi Willem-Jan,
>
> Yes,I am living down here(11 years)
> I'm an ex Manhattenite NY,Had enough of the States.
> I would love to send photos when I can drag a friend with a digital camera
> out to machine.
No hurry, just for fun....like a holiday greeting card from far away
places....:))
(actually, my brother will visit Mexico-city this fall, invited to
the wedding of a Dutch friend, so I probably get some real card then
too....;))
(but a home-made picture of the local scenery, way out in the bush,
is more appealing to me....:))
> Best long term and roughest solution is addition of a 12v batt and
> alternator!Thanks.
>
> A real old Mexican heavy machine operator said to run a positive wire from
> pos batt,one per accessory,to a 12v light socket with bulb.From socket to
> ground and positive post solder on an additional wire to accessory and then
> ground accessory as indicated.He said this would give me 12v to my
> accessory.(?)
The bulb would act as a resistor here....but you would have to select
the wattage of that bulb to the total drain (which is probably
impossible because of the variation with lights on/off), *or* use one
resistor/bulb for each of the accessories (each resistor matched to
the resistance of the accessory).
> This would be very easy and let me have batts in "serries" and charge
> directly from 24v alternator.
It can be done like described.
Note though that once a bulb fails, you would have no current in that
circuit anymore, so it is less foolproof than an actual
resistor....:))
Alternatively, you could make things more sophisticated, with a
adjustable resistor, but in the required amount of power, those might
be less easy to find.
Btw, if you have a car wrecking yard nearby, you could try finding
some decent resistors in the interior-fan circuit of older
cars....several resistors present, with decent capacity/power (if you
buy them in a shop, they are not just rated by resistance/ohm, but
also by the power they can absorb (in Watt; and you would at least
theoretically need a Wattage that is close to that of the accessory
(or try a way to actively cool it)).
> Comments are welcome.
>
> Warmest Regards,Arthur Herr
>
> P.S.,my apartment in NY was 15 city blocks from World Trade Center.After
> first bombing figured they'ld come back to finish them off!
> I lost 11 friends in the towers.
Must have been agonizing, so much pain, being so far away....
(in physical safety, but never mentally/emotionally of course)
Many Dutchmen don't want to believe that they could even blast our
dikes with only 1 truckload of explosives....
Pointing the finger at New Orleans, saying that we do more on
water prevention....while it takes only one truckload....not even a
suicide terrorist at that....
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
From: "arthur herr"
To: w.j.markerink@a1.nl
Subject: Re: 4x4 & offroad 24v to 12v simple conversion
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 16:51:33 -0400
Hi Willem-Jan,
When you say,
"The bulb would act as a resistor here....but you would have to select
>the wattage of that bulb to the total drain (which is probably
>impossible because of the variation with lights on/off), *or* use one
>resistor/bulb for each of the accessories (each resistor matched to
>the resistance of the accessory)."
"match the wattage of that bulb to the total drain....."
You mean?Please explain if you would how I go about this.Find wattage draw
per accessory and match it to bulb?
I would use 1 socket and bulb per accessory.
An 1156 or 1157 12v bulbs.That's about it down here.There may be available
bulbs with less wattage thuogh or maybe more I'll go search it out (you may
know that Mexicans Love to accessorize thier cars and trucks with lights).
As to a bulb blowing out I would place bulbs close to the "doghouse" with
spare bulbs.The location on rig where operator sits and works machine.This
location has engine/pump tach,trans/engine temp,trans/engine oil
presure,Pump pressure,and other indicators centrally located for easy
veiwing.
In this instance only fuel pump is mission critical.Thoughts on keeping it
up?
It'll take awhile to track down a alternator...In States this would be trip
to local junkyard and 5$ for an alternator,here things like this are gold.I
may cannibleize an old Izusu suv I have here being that I never use the
heater(haha).Please explain this in more detail also,if you might.
As to Trade Center,Yes much to much pain.It searred the spirits of all New
Yorkers if not those of all people in the world.Here the people have no
concept really of what occurred in NY.It's an action movie to these.
I trust the government of the Netherlands, is cognizant of the potential
disaster of the dykes in your country.
Actually I'm here raising cut flowers (hybrid lotus and water lillies).These
are quite dificult for cut flower market as they'll open for the day and
close for the night,though I've found some solutions to this "problem".
Regards,Arthur Herr
From: "arthur herr"
To: w.j.markerink@a1.nl
Subject: Re: 4x4 & offroad 24v to 12v simple conversion
Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 12:11:34 -0400
Hi Willem-Jan,
I don't know if you received my last email asking if you could describe
balenceing each
resistor/bulb /socket to the "resistance" of the given "accessory"?
Should I,for instance,look for the wattage of the diesel fuel pump,and if I
find it,Match a "resistor/bulb" wattage to that?
I'm not so clear on this nor on how to use resistors from a "heater" system
to match to my "accessories"?
Btw,is that your quote that I see on all your sign offs?Quite
poigniant!Reminds me of me sometimes!
Warmest Regards and Thanks,Arthur Herr
From: Willem-Jan Markerink
To: "arthur herr"
Subject: Re: 4x4 & offroad 24v to 12v simple conversion
Reply-to: w.j.markerink@a1.nl
Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 18:43:01 +0200
On 8 Sep 2005 at 16:51, arthur herr wrote:
> Hi Willem-Jan,
>
> When you say,
>
> "The bulb would act as a resistor here....but you would have to select
> >the wattage of that bulb to the total drain (which is probably
> >impossible because of the variation with lights on/off), *or* use one
> >resistor/bulb for each of the accessories (each resistor matched to
> >the resistance of the accessory)."
>
> "match the wattage of that bulb to the total drain....."
>
> You mean?Please explain if you would how I go about this.Find wattage draw
> per accessory and match it to bulb?
If 1 resistor for each accessory, yes.
> I would use 1 socket and bulb per accessory.
> An 1156 or 1157 12v bulbs.That's about it down here.
No problem, if necessary (for the pump most likely), you can put more
than 1 bulb in series, adding up resistance, until it matches that of
the accessory....:))
> There may be available
> bulbs with less wattage thuogh or maybe more I'll go search it out (you may
> know that Mexicans Love to accessorize thier cars and trucks with lights).
>
> As to a bulb blowing out I would place bulbs close to the "doghouse" with
> spare bulbs.The location on rig where operator sits and works machine.This
> location has engine/pump tach,trans/engine temp,trans/engine oil
> presure,Pump pressure,and other indicators centrally located for easy
> veiwing.
>
> In this instance only fuel pump is mission critical.Thoughts on keeping it
> up?
If bulb blows, pump will die too, no way around that, sorry.
(unless you go with the additional 12v alternator of course)
> It'll take awhile to track down a alternator...In States this would be trip
> to local junkyard and 5$ for an alternator,here things like this are gold.I
> may cannibleize an old Izusu suv I have here being that I never use the
> heater(haha).Please explain this in more detail also,if you might.
Just follow the wires from the selector that adjusts the speed of the
interior fan....max speed is full 12v, all lower speeds use a
separate resistor for each speed.
Actually, over time, the lowest speed often has a broken resistor,
because it is the one that has to burn the most heat, at the lowest
active cooling (most of these resistor-packs are located close to an
air-duct/channel, for somewhat active cooling).
> As to Trade Center,Yes much to much pain.It searred the spirits of all New
> Yorkers if not those of all people in the world.Here the people have no
> concept really of what occurred in NY.It's an action movie to these.
>
> I trust the government of the Netherlands, is cognizant of the potential
> disaster of the dykes in your country.
>
> Actually I'm here raising cut flowers (hybrid lotus and water lillies).These
> are quite dificult for cut flower market as they'll open for the day and
> close for the night,though I've found some solutions to this "problem".
Artificial light?....;))
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink
The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
the inability to understand
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]
If you have any question, remark, comment, want to share some
philosophy or just want to express your opinion about these pages,
feel free to send email to:
w.j.markerink @ a1.nl
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